Do you guys ever envision a time when people can use videoconferencing/webcam technology to routinely game with people around the country or the world? Being a technological dunce I have no idea how far we are away from the days when we can push a button and get a good clear picture and ungarbled sound.
Any thoughts?
I think the tech is there now but it would be moderately expensive. but I don't think that it will ever be as good as face to face, just a sub for when face to face isn't possible.
If my fellow gamer friends and I could afford the audio/visual hardware and bandwidth to play remotely, we would.
Many people would play remotely even if it just meant being across town instead. We have enough parents with young children currently, the ability to be home when 5 minutes of assistance is needed would allow for more games for more people.
Once cheap enough hardware/software like that existed it would be used. I've heard of professional systems that already exist for interacting with clients and business partners around the world but the price tag is around $100,000 last I heard.
The implications for things like education and business are staggering but the gamers would use them as well.
Quote from: King_StannisDo you guys ever envision a time when people can use videoconferencing/webcam technology to routinely game with people around the country or the world? Being a technological dunce I have no idea how far we are away from the days when we can push a button and get a good clear picture and ungarbled sound.
It's already being done... (http://archive.gamespy.com/comics/nodwick/ffn/ffn052.htm)
Quote from: King_StannisDo you guys ever envision a time when people can use videoconferencing/webcam technology to routinely game with people around the country or the world? Being a technological dunce I have no idea how far we are away from the days when we can push a button and get a good clear picture and ungarbled sound.
Any thoughts?
i've been imagining it for years. it's an eventuality when the techology and service are reasonably affordable.
Voice technology currently allows simultaneous communication over the net, but that obviously doesn't help with things like showing maps to other remote players. I personally prefer programs like Fantasy Grounds, which combines chat with dice rolling and the ability to display maps to everyone connected to the game. Maybe video conferencing games might become widespread at a later date, but for now we're not doing too bad with what's readily available.
I can imagine it being increasingly available and affordable as the years go on, but I can't see it being satisfying for me.
If you want to do that, can't you just play any number of online computer games? I don't see why one would keep all the conventions of tabletop gaming if they go online. Something like Neverwinter Nights is going to have any web RPG type program beat hands down. IMO anyway.
Quote from: King_StannisDo you guys ever envision a time when people can use videoconferencing/webcam technology to routinely game with people around the country or the world? Being a technological dunce I have no idea how far we are away from the days when we can push a button and get a good clear picture and ungarbled sound.
Only in my nightmares.
Call me a Luddite, but I think half the fun of P&P RPGing is the gathering. Passing books around, chatting, borrowing stuff until the next session, etc. I don't think I could ever do video-conferenced gaming. Then again, I said I'd never (okay, "never again" is more precise) use a laptop as a GM.
Honestly, things like Fantasy Grounds leave me wondering "why?" I can't see even
choosing to game remotely. Only being forced to for want of local players. Again, though, I'm dumbfounded by people being willing to organize a (regular) time to play MMORPGs.
Pharao dreamt of a room full of heads, and each head spoke simultaneously. Pharao awoke screaming.
I foresee that there will be several forays into that territory. And yes, it may be an alternative if you want to game with guys that have moved, but you want to indulge your memories.
But with video signals, you never have peripheric vision, and you often have a very confined point of view. If I, as DM, cannot see a player fidget because he gets bored, or cannot keep on top of all the players like I could when they were sitting in front of me, then the game will suffer. If the players can't read their buddies' bodies to see they're going to do or say something, then everybody will talk at once, which even worsens things.
And that's without taking into account the fact that I can't hand something over, have a player give me something to drink, play with the kids of our fellow players, or go up to the kitchen with them to make some sandwiches and talk shit.
Now, it might be a good idea for smelly gamers or Hida Oakheart. So I might go online to participate in GenCon games.
And finally, where most computer programs for table use cannot fill my need for a good DM program, I can't really see a video-game-interface done well.
Quote from: SobekHonestly, things like Fantasy Grounds leave me wondering "why?" I can't see even choosing to game remotely. Only being forced to for want of local players. Again, though, I'm dumbfounded by people being willing to organize a (regular) time to play MMORPGs.
That's easy to answer. I have a group of really good friends, like not just gaming buddies, but real life buddies, who enjoy gaming, but we're spread out throughout the country now. Fantasy Grounds allows us to actually game together without having to be in one place at one time. It would really rock if we could ever get our crap together enough to actually schedule a time to play....
Quote from: BullittThat's easy to answer. I have a group of really good friends, like not just gaming buddies, but real life buddies, who enjoy gaming, but we're spread out throughout the country now. Fantasy Grounds allows us to actually game together without having to be in one place at one time. It would really rock if we could ever get our crap together enough to actually schedule a time to play....
You took the words right out of my mouth.
I prefer in-person gaming by a long shot. And I have never played any sort of MMORG. I barely even tolerate single-player RPG video games. But thanks to OpenRPG/WebRPG at first and now Fantasy Grounds, I still game with my old gang, people I have known for over 30 years.
We have managed to get together in person a few times in recent years, but only 2 in-person games.
I have in-person games too, with other people, and enjoy them. But I am glad to have technology that lets me keep gaming with my old friends.
i would take "video conferencing RP" as a substitute for tabletop gaming. NWN and other games like that are not the same as tableop because you have to program in everything you want to happen ahead of time (i assume, as i have not actually seen or played the game myself thanks to limited budget and freetime).
however, what might be interesting is a combination of the two... the DM can prepare parts of it (like map JPGs or character modeling, or even playable modules) on the computer ahead of time, and just wing the rest of it tabletop style over the video conferencing...
I view FTF and online as apples and oranges...but they are both fruit ;)
I PRG alot online because
1) I play alot of non-d20/DND games and players are sometimes hard to find
2) Other RPGers are sometimes hard to find Lots of FTF board games
3) Easy to organize. No travel involved and once you have all your initial files made, simple
It won't replace FTF, but there are some very cool aspects like...
Whispers/Notes work way better
Send cool sound/image files
Efficient data tracking. Makes GMing a snap once the files are made
You can play in your underwear (or something comfortable)
I like them both and view them like different rpg's. Fun but different...
Quote from: BOZi would take "video conferencing RP" as a substitute for tabletop gaming. NWN and other games like that are not the same as tableop because you have to program in everything you want to happen ahead of time (i assume, as i have not actually seen or played the game myself thanks to limited budget and freetime).
Actually, it's a combination of the two. You can certainly program pretty much anything to happen at a certain time - when the group steps in this spot, this object appears, that visual effect goes off, disembodied voice says these lines - whatever. But you do need some pretty good programming skills to pull that off.
You can also do stuff "on the fly". Instead of scripting a bunch of conversation, just possess the creature in question and talk. Or use a variety of commands to create creatures, items, and effects as you need them. Naturally some things are easier than others, and it works best to program some things and do others through the DM client.
Hopefully NWN2 will make it even better. :)
i don't want to knock the program; i'm sure it's cool. i was just imagining the possibilities of what could be possible as technology continues to lurch forward. :)
when i was a lot younger, say 10-12 years ago, i imagined a fully computerized "gaming table". it would have little laptop-like screens at each seat that could display character sheets, gaming books (PDF style, totally hyperlinked), etc. you could have digitized dice or real ones as you prefer. your characters would appear on the middle of the table, like the chess game from Star Wars, rather than miniatures.
of course, it would be ridiculously expensive. ;)
Quote from: SobekAgain, though, I'm dumbfounded by people being willing to organize a (regular) time to play MMORPGs.
I don't know why you would be. To sort of echo Bullitt, when you have life-long friends scattered across the continent, it's nice to get together to game, even if it's done online. My brother and his buddies occasionally get together like this. To them, and to me, it's less interesting to play a game online with strangers.
Quote from: BOZi don't want to knock the program; i'm sure it's cool. i was just imagining the possibilities of what could be possible as technology continues to lurch forward. :)
when i was a lot younger, say 10-12 years ago, i imagined a fully computerized "gaming table". it would have little laptop-like screens at each seat that could display character sheets, gaming books (PDF style, totally hyperlinked), etc. you could have digitized dice or real ones as you prefer. your characters would appear on the middle of the table, like the chess game from Star Wars, rather than miniatures.
of course, it would be ridiculously expensive. ;)
Yeah, but more realisically now you'd just have a laptop for everyone networked together. And if you're going to go to all that expense/trouble, then why mess with tabletop style rules and just use a 3D engine. That isn't futuristic, you can do that right now with NWN, WoW, or any other number of games. And you can game the same way over the net.
(Repeating my tirade from RPGnet on the same subject)
I'm not predicting the end of gaming exactly, but IMO beer and pretzels gaming is on its way out. I mean if you really don't care about characters, conflict, drama or plot, if you just play to enjoy some absentminded violence, min-maxing, and going up in levels/getting l33t powers, what exactly is any RPG going to offer you over WoW? The scent of Unwashed Gamer? The inconvinence of only playing once a week? The lack of 3D graphics? Sure, there may be some who prefer it but think of a new gamer - which is he going to prefer? Even the social aspect is trumped by a LAN party.
So does that mean gaming is over? Not any more than the invention of the camera meant the death of painting. Focus will just shift. Since the computers do simulated enviroments, min maxing, and number crunching so well, RPGs will focus on areas where they are weak. Spontaneous game play, conflict and drama, characterization, and involved role playing.
I'd predict that there'll be another breakout game, one that makes conflict and drama as easy and natural as d20 made beer & pretzel gaming in 2000, vampire made angst in the 90s, and AD&D created a sense of wonder in the 80s. Sure, there are some games that focus on that in the indie RPG scene, but they are games by experts for experts. I'd wager not many people would jump right into My Life With Master or Dogs in the Vineyard as their first exposure to gaming.
How to do that, well if I knew that I'd be designing it. :D
Quote from: MaddmanYeah, but more realisically now you'd just have a laptop for everyone networked together.
yeah, i was thinking about that today. my idea seemed much more futuristic when i was a kid. ;)
it's not unlikely that tabletop gaming will totally evolve into some entirely/mostly electronic format at some point, but who is to say what the future holds?
i mean, some people still do wargaming, so it's not like pen-n-paper is going to truly die, just possibly go out of fashion.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonI don't know why you would be. To sort of echo Bullitt, when you have life-long friends scattered across the continent, it's nice to get together to game, even if it's done online.
I kinda understand it with "the old gang" (thus my "no other choice" caveat), but not entirely. For that, I'd rather PBEM. Dunno what it is, but every CRPG interface I've used, be it Final Fantasy, ToEE, Morrowind, Diablo 2, or City of Heroes just sucks away my desire to interact with another human being.
Rationally, I understand that some people get a kick out of it. Emotionally, I just don't understand. What really boggles my mind -- and I mean to the point of wondering if an intervention or trip to the doctor was necessary -- is the guy who backed out of a live P&P because his EQ guild called him up to quest. WTF? Cancelling on a prior commitment is bad enough, but it's just weird to cancel the real thing for the computer version.
Note: I don't hate MMORPGs and I'm not trying to rip 'em apart. I'm just coming from the position of not understanding the appeal.
Quote from: SobekRationally, I understand that some people get a kick out of it. Emotionally, I just don't understand. What really boggles my mind -- and I mean to the point of wondering if an intervention or trip to the doctor was necessary -- is the guy who backed out of a live P&P because his EQ guild called him up to quest. WTF? Cancelling on a prior commitment is bad enough, but it's just weird to cancel the real thing for the computer version.
I've heard tales of entire gaming groups falling apart because of WoW. I've lost gamers to it myself. They get their fix through that, so they have no urge to play tabletop anymore.
The Brand Manager of D&D, after he was let go by WOTC, said WOW had decimated the tabletop (what I would call face to face) rpg industry in 2005.
He says he's betting on the guys with the 500 million dollars, the WOW guys.
(shrugs)
I don't know why WOW is so appealing, and stealing people away. I have only guesses on the matter.
Edena_of_Neith
Quote from: the ultimate nullifierI can imagine it being increasingly available and affordable as the years go on, but I can't see it being satisfying for me.
Ditto. There's something infinitely more satisfying about actually being in the same room with the people you're gaming with. I guess it would work for me if it's what I *had* to do to game with friends. After all, I play MMORPG's with friends, but we always seem to have more fun when we're sitting around the game table rather than our seperate monitors.
Quote from: King_StannisDo you guys ever envision a time when people can use videoconferencing/webcam technology to routinely game with people around the country or the world? Being a technological dunce I have no idea how far we are away from the days when we can push a button and get a good clear picture and ungarbled sound.
Any thoughts?
I do it off and on.
Webcam, microphone, 5mb cable modem, YIM.
Let's me run a game for several of my players that aren't regionally accessable any more.
Quote from: Edena_of_NeithThe Brand Manager of D&D, after he was let go by WOTC, said WOW had decimated the tabletop (what I would call face to face) rpg industry in 2005.
He says he's betting on the guys with the 500 million dollars, the WOW guys.
(shrugs)
I don't know why WOW is so appealing, and stealing people away. I have only guesses on the matter.
Edena_of_Neith
It's simple; the smash and loot style of play that many D&D gamers like is done well enough in games like WoW, that it's an acceptable substitute. Plus, you don't have to worry about spending hours on game setup, whether players will show up, arguments with the GMs over rules and so forth. It's immediate and up front, where you can log in and play on your own schedual and play for as long as you like. Plus, it provides whole different challenges that D&D doesn't have- like resource management and skill leveling.
Quote from: OddveigIt's simple; the smash and loot style of play that many D&D gamers like is done well enough in games like WoW, that it's an acceptable substitute. Plus, you don't have to worry about spending hours on game setup, whether players will show up, arguments with the GMs over rules and so forth. It's immediate and up front, where you can log in and play on your own schedual and play for as long as you like. Plus, it provides whole different challenges that D&D doesn't have- like resource management and skill leveling.
Not to mention it's more immersive for those with less-than-well-developed imaginations (thereby appealing to the non-dnd and undeveloped-potential-dnd players as well). It provides a level of anonymity. It doesn't require pesky and unimportant activities like roleplaying or anything. It lets you see in graphic terms how cool and well-dressed your character is. It has hot girls to look at, even if they're really sweaty, balding 45yo men IRL. It lets you "own" stuff and be "uber".
I worry that by the time that technology arrives, the CRPG experience will largely have supplanted PnP games. Right now, the DM tools for NWN are too clunky to encourage many people to try it out (not to mention that NWN doesn't support "roleplaying" as it's defined in the PnP context). Five years from now, that might not be the case - and even if it is, I'm not convinced that people won't be content to interact with the increasingly sophisticated AI, and play in DM-less games.
I agree that part of the "true" PnP experience is sharing physical space, and that video technology would detract from that, but I'm not especially confident that PnP is going to survive in a state where the option will matter.
Quote from: Edena_of_NeithThe Brand Manager of D&D, after he was let go by WOTC, said WOW had decimated the tabletop (what I would call face to face) rpg industry in 2005.
He says he's betting on the guys with the 500 million dollars, the WOW guys.
(shrugs)
I don't know why WOW is so appealing, and stealing people away. I have only guesses on the matter.
Edena_of_Neith
I wouldn't take anything he says as much more than sour grapes.
Today, Mike Mearls commented on my blog (http://www.xanga.com/RPGpundit/465880957/item.html) to the effect that "no one in Wizards is talking about the death of gaming" (in response to my recent editorial on this year's "state of the industry" report). I would think that if the truth were otherwise, he would have chosen not to comment; since no one had a gun to his head.
Its not particularly logical to think that WoW stops people from buying D&D products. It IS logical, mind you, to think that WoW stops people who don't play D&D already from getting into that game. But that really should not have any kind of "devastating" effect on the current D&D sales.
RPGPundit
Quote from: EveryoneI agree that part of the "true" PnP experience is sharing physical space, and that video technology would detract from that, but I'm not especially confident that PnP is going to survive in a state where the option will matter.
Survive?
I assume you mean "in notable numbers."
Cuz, uh, I'll still be playing, writing, and buying. And I can make new players, if need be. And there's plently enough like me around.
Quote from: Levi KornelsenCuz, uh, I'll still be playing, writing, and buying. And I can make new players, if need be. And there's plently enough like me around.
Damn Rights :deviousgrin:
Be it FTF or Online ;)
Quote from: Levi KornelsenSurvive?
I assume you mean "in notable numbers."
Cuz, uh, I'll still be playing, writing, and buying. And I can make new players, if need be. And there's plently enough like me around.
Of course. There are still people who play Puffing Billy, too.
Quote from: EveryoneOf course. There are still people who play Puffing Billy, too.
Yep.
...And there are still people building model trains. And people making those trains for them, in small operations that do incredibly high-quality work, even if the packaging tends to be cheap. And websites and fanzines. At
worst, that's where we'll end up.
I'm okay with that, frankly.
Quote from: Levi KornelsenSurvive?
I assume you mean "in notable numbers."
Cuz, uh, I'll still be playing, writing, and buying. And I can make new players, if need be. And there's plently enough like me around.
I echo this....IMO a computer game, while it might become increasingly sophisticated, will never replace FTF RPing. This means that as long as I desire to keep my imagination buff I will want to hang out with a group of gamers once a week or so. I remember a time when the RPing hobby was a pretty damn small group of people....I lived with it then and I can live with it in the future if I must.
there will always be a market, even if said market continues to shrink. only when the last of us has died or given up will there be no market at all. ;)
Quote from: RPGPunditIts not particularly logical to think that WoW stops people from buying D&D products. It IS logical, mind you, to think that WoW stops people who don't play D&D already from getting into that game. But that really should not have any kind of "devastating" effect on the current D&D sales.
RPGPundit
It's logical if said person feels that 15 bucks a month for gaming is worth it more then 30+ in splat/campaign books. Players on a budget may(and do) see it as an alternative, I know I have friends who stopped buying PnP books because WoW was actually cheaper for them, I doubt it's localized. However there are those who do both, and those who eventually find that WoW doesn't offer what they want or they can't deal with the schedule/ requirments/ commitment/ technical issues that come from playing the game and come back to table-top games.
I dont think the future of gaming is playing over the internet. The whole reason I got into gaming was the social aspect of rubbing shoulders with other strange misfits that eventually became good friends.
Those who want to play "online" do it because they seek quick fixes, and that comes in the form of already existing online computer RPGs, WoW or others. Network gaming (LAN) is the height for computer gaming as far as I am concerned, and online network gaming just doesnt do it for me, not as a replacement for role-player either.
Yes I lost gaming buddies to Dungeon Siege, WoW and others, but then for these people, this was THE experience they were seeking all along, and gaming around the table was as close to the experience as they could get, before the advent of PC RPGs.
The technology may already be here, or at the very least, just around the corner, but I doubt it will be embraced or get the level of commitment me as a GM would expect.
There is something special and unique about a group that eschew other activities to spend 4 hours on a Sunday evening to play in my game, or any of our games.
i most definitely don't spend $30+ a month on D&D. i buy about one book every 2-4 months, depending on what's coming out. i do buy Dragon mag it seems from 1/3 - 2/3 of the time though.
Quote from: Levi KornelsenYep.
...And there are still people building model trains. And people making those trains for them, in small operations that do incredibly high-quality work, even if the packaging tends to be cheap. And websites and fanzines. At worst, that's where we'll end up.
I'm okay with that, frankly.
Yeah, so am I -- if I can ever find a group to game with again. But your example is very cogent to me, as it's one I've been thinking about lately. Model trains and scale modeling are two hobbies that have plugged along in relative obscurity for decades now.
The main difference between these hobbies and RPGs is that they don't require more than one person to do. This could be why they can continue on as a viable hobby (and industry) even though the population density of their adherents is pretty low. RPGs require at least
some other gamers within a reasonably small area. I can see driving maybe a half-hour or so to get to a session, but beyond that... :shrug: Maybe if it was with a group of people I was pretty close friends with. If not, I don't know if I'd be willing to make such a drive.
Quote from: BOZi most definitely don't spend $30+ a month on D&D. i buy about one book every 2-4 months, depending on what's coming out. i do buy Dragon mag it seems from 1/3 - 2/3 of the time though.
1 Dragon + 1 Dungeon a month is 15 bucks right there. There is usually 2 or more D&D books to come out a month, not counting other game systems so 30+ a month is not hard to do.
true, but it's all voluntary. many a month has gone by where i bought no RPG materials at all. my expense those months was $0. ;)
i almost never buy Dungeon. i'd say my average monthly expenditure for D&D stuff (taking in Dragon and the 2-4 hardcovers i've been buying every year after 3.5 debuted), is $10-15 at most, and probably less than that in reality.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonYeah, so am I -- if I can ever find a group to game with again. But your example is very cogent to me, as it's one I've been thinking about lately. Model trains and scale modeling are two hobbies that have plugged along in relative obscurity for decades now.
The main difference between these hobbies and RPGs is that they don't require more than one person to do. This could be why they can continue on as a viable hobby (and industry) even though the population density of their adherents is pretty low. RPGs require at least some other gamers within a reasonably small area. I can see driving maybe a half-hour or so to get to a session, but beyond that... :shrug: Maybe if it was with a group of people I was pretty close friends with. If not, I don't know if I'd be willing to make such a drive.
I think our esteemed Col. has hit the nail right on it's little noggin with this issue here. Finding gamers within a reasonable distance is what will suffer the most from the decay of our hobby, and the biggest reason why people could switch over to MMORPGs. On EQ, I never had to look far or long to find people to group with...heck most of the time I played I was in a guild that had members on at all times of the day and night. Since I played a druid I could even solo just fine if I wanted, and often did. At the time I just didn't have any RPG players that I knew or could find, so I did the next best thing. If players become even harder to find, I probably wouldn't hesitate to go back either, but I'd still rather be FtF RPing.
Quote from: BOZtrue, but it's all voluntary. many a month has gone by where i bought no RPG materials at all. my expense those months was $0. ;)
i almost never buy Dungeon. i'd say my average monthly expenditure for D&D stuff (taking in Dragon and the 2-4 hardcovers i've been buying every year after 3.5 debuted), is $10-15 at most, and probably less than that in reality.
All gaming is voluntary. I'm only showing that it's not unreasonable for the switch, especially for financial reasons. I can get X amount of hobby fun for Y amount or Y+ amount, I choose the Y amount.
With the increase of places like My Space, MMORPG's, Blogging and other forms of digital communication with the increase use of PC's at the gaming table it's not unreasonable to see an increase of gaming via non-traditional means. Look how long PBM games have been around and thriving.
sure, it's reasonable... if you feel you need to have everything that exists for the format you want to game in, then $100 a month (roughly; even more if you include 3rd party d20 stuff) is a lot more to spend to get all the gaming books and such, as opposed to a mere monthly fee of $15 or whatnot to game online and you get everything you need once you've purchased the initial sortware. if you look at it from that perspective, and i'm sure some people do, it does seem to make much more sense.
however, consider some other sides to the equation. for me, i was playing City of Heroes for awhile. the monthly fee wasn't huge, so no big whoop. i tend to be too busy with a wife, children, full time job, and PNP RPG hobby to game online very often. in fact, i had to make time to meet up with my friends on CoH. it got harder and harder to coordinate the time to play with them until finally i stopped trying for awhile. maybe 2 or 3 months went by like this where i played CoH very little or not at all. when my bank account was overdrawn one time, my CoH account lapsed. i decided not to reinstate it, because i was paying too much to do too little.
now take D&D. i could have just bought the PHB for $30, and never bought a single book again. in my party, nearly all of the 3E books have been purchased by someone, so they are shared by all. if i want to look something up in a book that i don't have, i don't need to buy the book just to see it, i can borrow my friend's copy for 10 minutes. any books i purchased beyond the PHB were totally optional. some books i thought about getting but did not get because my budget was too tight. however, no matter how broke i am, i don't have to stop playing tabletop D&D.
Quote from: SigmundFinding gamers within a reasonable distance is what will suffer the most from the decay of our hobby,
What is this "find" you speak of?
Find, nothing. Make new gamers.
i have a baby, but she needs to learn to speak and read before she can game. ;)
I like to imagine that online games have weeded on the people from pnp games who weren't very well suited to pnp games in the first place. I mean, if WoW vanished tomorrow, would you really want to include a bunch of people in your group who you know would rather be off playing online video games, and consider pnp games to be a poor substitute for their real favorite?
Quote from: Name LipsI like to imagine that online games have weeded on the people from pnp games who weren't very well suited to pnp games in the first place. I mean, if WoW vanished tomorrow, would you really want to include a bunch of people in your group who you know would rather be off playing online video games, and consider pnp games to be a poor substitute for their real favorite?
Ugh. I shudder at the thought. That would so completely suck. There'd be nothing worse that trying to run a quest set up and hearing complaining about when the killing is going to start and where they have to go to get epic gear! Not that I think all ex-MMO players would be that way, but I don't doubt for a second that it would crop up.
Quote from: Name LipsI like to imagine that online games have weeded on the people from pnp games who weren't very well suited to pnp games in the first place. I mean, if WoW vanished tomorrow, would you really want to include a bunch of people in your group who you know would rather be off playing online video games, and consider pnp games to be a poor substitute for their real favorite?
Don't be elitest now, there are a lot of people who do both, or got tired of issues from table top or situations arose that the Computer games were a viable alternative. Table top is no way "superior," just a different venue. Shouldn't comment on one person in one thread for being elitest then go and do the very same to others.
Quote from: kanegrundarUgh. I shudder at the thought. That would so completely suck. There'd be nothing worse that trying to run a quest set up and hearing complaining about when the killing is going to start and where they have to go to get epic gear! Not that I think all ex-MMO players would be that way, but I don't doubt for a second that it would crop up.
Is it really different then the hack-n-slasher gamer, the ones wanting their +5 swords at 9th level or the ones that use the Deities and Demigods book as a monster book.
Quote from: Phantom StrangerDon't be elitest now, there are a lot of people who do both, or got tired of issues from table top or situations arose that the Computer games were a viable alternative. Table top is no way "superior," just a different venue.
Yeah, but if online gamers have abandonded their pnp groups to play online games more, and then come slinking back when their game goes away, then I'm a little peeved.
Quote from: Name LipsYeah, but if online gamers have abandonded their pnp groups to play online games more, and then come slinking back when their game goes away, then I'm a little peeved.
It's really no different then not table top gaming for any other reason, from having a new girlfriend to school to getting a job, it's just doing something different. Shouldn't matter what the "different," thing is. It happened when Magic came out as well.
i've known people who started gaming on CRPGs, and then moved to PNP RPGs (or at least split their time) because they heard about all the other cool stuff you can't (yet) do in a CRPG. ;)
in fact, i think at least two people in my usual group are like that...
Luddites! :muttering:
Quote from: Levi KornelsenWhat is this "find" you speak of?
Find, nothing. Make new gamers.
I did, but he's only six months old right now, so I need others to play with until he ages a bit :)
Honestly, with a wife and a six month old and a dog who seems to insist on getting hit by cars and a job and a campaign or two I'm trying to put together with the guys I game with now, I don't have a whole lotta time to make new gamers. I do value your suggestion though, and I would one day like to sponsor and run a game for young ones. In the late 70s when I was just a young'un I was introduced to my first true gaming group (and, believe it or not, my first fantasy computer game on an old apple) at the local Boy's Club of America center by what I thought at the time was an old guy (late 20s), and he used to run us through the greatest adventures (like the original Hidden Shrine of the Tamoachen
). I'd like to do that for a group of kids too one of these days, even if it's just my son and his buds. So I guess I can say, "Workin' on it." :)
Quote from: BagpussLuddites! :muttering:
:talktothehand:
Quote from: SigmundI did, but he's only six months old right now, so I need others to play with until he ages a bit :)
Honestly, with a wife and a six month old and a dog who seems to insist on getting hit by cars and a job and a campaign or two I'm trying to put together with the guys I game with now, I don't have a whole lotta time to make new gamers. I do value your suggestion though, and I would one day like to sponsor and run a game for young ones. In the late 70s when I was just a young'un I was introduced to my first true gaming group (and, believe it or not, my first fantasy computer game on an old apple) at the local Boy's Club of America center by what I thought at the time was an old guy (late 20s), and he used to run us through the greatest adventures (like the original Hidden Shrine of the Tamoachen). I'd like to do that for a group of kids too one of these days, even if it's just my son and his buds. So I guess I can say, "Workin' on it." :)
And as you grow older, you don't have as many opportunities to do things like you mention. I tend to have so many irons in the fire I can never seem to know which one to pull out.
This reminds me of why I really like the new (well 2004) D&D Basic Game boxed set. Grab a few people, plop it down and begin. Add in a D&D Book for Dummies and you have a nice foundation for a beginning Gamemaster and group of players to get a start.
A lot of the old guard get really elitest and superior as age sets in.
Quote from: Phantom StrangerIs it really different then the hack-n-slasher gamer, the ones wanting their +5 swords at 9th level or the ones that use the Deities and Demigods book as a monster book.
The main difference is in my hack and slash games there's at least a bit of story/roleplaying before and after the slaughter. Not everyone runs a campaign like that either.
At any rate, I wouldn't expect that to come up much, if ever, but I *could* see it happening to some groups. Outside occurance at any rate.
Quote from: King_StannisDo you guys ever envision a time when people can use videoconferencing/webcam technology to routinely game with people around the country or the world? Being a technological dunce I have no idea how far we are away from the days when we can push a button and get a good clear picture and ungarbled sound.
Well, my MMORPGing friends already use enhancements like teamspeak and have online groups... so it seems to me that some evolution could occur the other direction, with electronic games evolving back towards the social model of their parents.
I game with people aroung the world. I reside in Southern California, four players are in Tennesee, as is the DM, and two more players yet reside in England. We use IRC as our chat client and when things get tricky about manuevering, we fire up a webcam on the battle mat the DM uses to move minis around for combat. Most of the time however, he just puts up a screen shot of the battlemat on his website that we check after each round.
It's quite a blast to play in. With technology getting better, I can only see it going up.
Quote from: ergeheilaltI game with people aroung the world. I reside in Southern California, four players are in Tennesee, as is the DM, and two more players yet reside in England. We use IRC as our chat client and when things get tricky about manuevering, we fire up a webcam on the battle mat the DM uses to move minis around for combat. Most of the time however, he just puts up a screen shot of the battlemat on his website that we check after each round.
It's quite a blast to play in. With technology getting better, I can only see it going up.
That sounds pretty cool. I'd like to see a set-up like that sometime.
As an aside, where-abouts are your TN friends from? I live south of Knoxville myself :)
Quote from: ergeheilaltWe use IRC as our chat client and when things get tricky about manuevering, we fire up a webcam on the battle mat the DM uses to move minis around for combat. Most of the time however, he just puts up a screen shot of the battlemat on his website that we check after each round
Take a look at these free tools...
RPTools (http://rptools.net/doku.php)
QuoteI've heard tales of entire gaming groups falling apart because of WoW. I've lost gamers to it myself. They get their fix through that, so they have no urge to play tabletop anymore.
Can´t concur. I have a hardcore WoW player in my D&D Campaign. He even met his girlfriend there. But he´s starving to game for real. Accopmlisments in WoW quickly lost their appeal for him, once he reached Level 60. WoW is his Methadone.
Quote from: SettembriniCan´t concur. I have a hardcore WoW player in my D&D Campaign. He even met his girlfriend there. But he´s starving to game for real. Accopmlisments in WoW quickly lost their appeal for him, once he reached Level 60. WoW is his Methadone.
This is closer to my experience, too. "Real" gamers (whatever that means) don't enjoy CRPGs the same way they enjoy PnP. Sometimes they enjoy it just as much, but it's a different kind of buzz.
My concern is over what will happen when technology is capable of bringing the CRPG experience closer to the PnP experience, or if PnP becomes marginalized enough that younger players aren't even aware of a serious PnP alternative. (Or if CRPGs warp perceptions and expectations enough that the traditional PnP is essentially impossible to do with younger players.)
Quote from: EveryoneOr if CRPGs warp perceptions and expectations enough that the traditional PnP is essentially impossible to do with younger players.
That one is easy enough to shake off; I don't expect that will change.
This really has broken itself down into two seperate issues; MMORPGs (which I am a fan of in theory, but haven't seen it done right or played right yet), and on-line conferencing in one manner or another for actual virtual PnP gaming.
Given that the OP seemed to be referring to the latter, I'll address that.
In my RPing 'career' I've been in 2 gaming groups I would have bent over backwards to keep together.
The first was a Champions game that dissolved when the GM went back to Boston after his visit to Ohio (where I lived). I would have happily digitally conferenced to maintain that game, but given that none of us knew about the Internet at the time, and 1200 baud was the average modem speed, it wouldn't have been possible.
The second would pretty much be any game Ralts was running. I'd happily conference into any game he had going if I were invited, although I'd be worried that the family would be constantly making requests of me that pulled me AFK. (Would that I were so lucky as some who's family will give them a little peace every now and again, but sadly no).
Conferencing into a game wouldn't be my first choice by any means, but in a situation like mine (3 kids, no babysitters, apt too small to host a game, and no desire to go looking through a small town to see what kind of psychotic gamers Ralts left behind when me moved to Oregon - hehe), online gaming really does have strong points going for it.
I've been in a couple of online games, run through irc on the magicstar server. (One nice thing about this irc network is that it contains a /roll command that broadcasts your roll, plus modifiers, to the entire channel.)
We don't use any secondary system to handle positions on maps, so as you might expect it generally works best for games where exact tactical positions don't matter. Our game of Buffy has been going on for years there without much trouble, but our attempt at Conan OGL had problems reconciling the position-based combat rules of d20 with describing more or less where things were. (Normally you'ld probably want to change the rules to suit the play environment more, but it was a playtest game, so we wanted to try to stick to the rules.)
Generally I'm mostly positive on this sort of gaming - I wouldn't want to only do online gaming like this, but on the other hand without this I wouldn't have had the chance to play with these folks, and I've had a great time at it.