Quote from: beejazzHi!

Hooray!

RPGPundit

Quote from: MelanAha, so you have data from representative market surveys. Great! Why not enlighten us? Out with the numbers!

I think you know the answer to this, although knowing that I am curious as to why you seem to imply with your tone, and I apologize if I am just misreading this-one of the things we lose on the internet is the subtle nonverbal cues when communicating, that you some how know better than I do? Or for that matter, anyone else?

QuoteAnd here, you lost me. I have played Diablo II., and it doesn't replicate the dungeon crawling experience as I know it, and only does a bare bones imitation.

Here we come down to the crux of the issue, as I see it. Who's ancedotal experience are we to rely upon here? Yours? Why? Mine? Why? But that aside I do agree that Diablo II, and there's a reason I picked this over WoW, isn't what a good RPG should be.

But then we both know that, the RPG community isn't trying to attract us, it's trying to retain us. We know the terms, we know the games.

QuoteNeither features the following:
- creative input beyond what is programmed in (although MMORPGs and some very complex games like Deus Ex and Morrowind have something similar if distant, "emergent gameplay")

Not everyone starts out looking for creative game play. This Dungeon Crawl stuff you speak of, and maybe I'm not hip to the terms here, pretty much sounds just like Diablo II to me. In fact so much so as to be nearly identical as I understand the term "Dungeon Crawl".

But you are correct no console game currently produced can hope to compete with human imagination. However not everyone walks into an RPG session looking to think. You all look at yourself as the "norm" in this discussion, which is funny because from what I've read of this board normally you all take pride in being above other people.

A lot of gamers aren't brilliant. A lot aren't looking to drop hundreds of dollars all the time. But they are all still a part of the market right?

Quote- the social aspect of play is severely stunted in these games

Given how we're interacting you'll forgive me for finding this humorously ironic. I don't disagree with your points, but again you're preaching to the choir. I game. I have for years. I will continue to do so. I'm not the guy new game companies or new systems need to land. I'll try stuff just to try it. But again are we the target market?

Maybe I'm wrong, and I'm more than willing to see other points of view or read things that would help me see thinsg form a different perspective.

Quote(Geez, I am starting to sound like a WotC board meating... better stop...)

Heh, no worries, I've enjoyed reading this all.

QuoteI get that and would prefer such information to be included in a rule book.

I'll come back to this. Kids are home from the park, and it's lunch time here.

I think we are a little OT.  So...

1.  I work in a school district and the biggest influence/"thing" for kids currently is the Internet (social networking, multi-tasking, easy access, and all the evils it brings).  

2.  MMORGs are not it.  They only capture a small percentage of the kids (money is one issue, computer access, parental involvement. Yes, this is in conflict with item 1, but kids can get at MySpace at school or the library, but they wouldn't be able to play games).

3.  Imagination is a magical thing.  Not everybody has it.  Not everybody who has it, exercises it.

The next generation of any RPG should include these ideas in it's synthesis.  Item 1 is important for success.  Items 2 and 3 are issues to be worked with.

Items that would help...

You remember the "MyAdventureBooks" they used to have.  You would read, make a decision and turn to that page.  These helped introduce kids to the ideas and concepts, helped with critical thinking (if-then-else constructs, consequences of actions, etc) and were cheap.  On-line versions of these, with pictures of course, would help bring people into the games.  Maybe.

BobManGM

Quote from: bobmangmYou remember the "MyAdventureBooks" they used to have.  You would read, make a decision and turn to that page.  These helped introduce kids to the ideas and concepts, helped with critical thinking (if-then-else constructs, consequences of actions, etc) and were cheap.  On-line versions of these, with pictures of course, would help bring people into the games.  Maybe.

CYOA is the usual term: "Choose Your Own Adventure", after one of the more popular titles. As for online versions, well, Home of the Underdogs should still has a number of the old gamebooks available for download as PDFs, while Project Aon attempts to preserve the Lone Wolf series.

Quote from: KrakaJakI see the future as an IP extension...

Combine this with Hodgson's writing about having a defined, protected IP and you've got t3h fut4r, baby.

So 4e will go in a even more defined, WotC-identified direction.  I can see this, even applaud it (once I see it from their perspective.)

Now all we can do is see if it pulls in young buyers with all their deliciously disposable money.

Quote from: Serious PaulI think you know the answer to this, although knowing that I am curious as to why you seem to imply with your tone, and I apologize if I am just misreading this-one of the things we lose on the internet is the subtle nonverbal cues when communicating, that you some how know better than I do? Or for that matter, anyone else?

It was you who (basically) dismissed my argument as anecdotal (#72). It was anecdotal, but that's the best information a poster on an online forum has access to - asking for more is simply unproductive. Hence the snark.

QuoteThis Dungeon Crawl stuff you speak of, and maybe I'm not hip to the terms here, pretty much sounds just like Diablo II to me. In fact so much so as to be nearly identical as I understand the term "Dungeon Crawl".

Then you are working from a limited understanding of what the play style includes. Are you familiar with the following?
Dark Tower
Caverns of Thracia
Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan
Pod-Caverns of the Sinister Shroom
Vault of the Drow
Tomb of Horrors
These (and others; the list is not exhaustive) are all adventures I consider to be great examples of dungeon adventures. None of them are simple "kill the monster and collect the treasure in 10'x10' rooms" affairs.

QuoteBut you are correct no console game currently produced can hope to compete with human imagination. However not everyone walks into an RPG session looking to think. You all look at yourself as the "norm" in this discussion, which is funny because from what I've read of this board normally you all take pride in being above other people.

Imagination, creativity, and excercising them, is something a substantially large minority of people is interested in. This group is not an "elite" segment of the population at all, even if it clearly isn't a majority either. As I see it, their capabilities, and their numbers, shouldn't be underestimated. Most people go for passive entertainment, but there are many who are looking for something else. Creating user levels for computer games (a huge thing in the last years - see my review of an unofficial sequel to Unreal in the Electronic Games section of the board, or take a look at //www.thiefmissions.com) is one expression of this, roleplaying another.

QuoteA lot of gamers aren't brilliant. A lot aren't looking to drop hundreds of dollars all the time. But they are all still a part of the market right?

Two different things. A lot of gamers aren't brilliant, I give you. I, for example, don't consider myself brilliant, although I do have a high opinion of myself. But even in not so brilliant guys, there can be an attraction to active mental entertainment. The question is, how can roleplaying publishers tap it - for example, by giving this target market a game that virtually sells itself.

A key element for this is not looking down on potential players, and respecting their intelligence. I will have to quote the good Jeff Freeman:

QuoteTSR, Inc. adopted a different strategy to get gamers out of the hobby that was even more spectacularly successful: They wrote the game for twelve-year-olds. This is sheer brilliance, because even twelve-year-olds aren't interested in anything written for twelve-year-olds. For example, 1st edition AD&D was written for adults, the vocabulary alone insisted on a college reading level. Game modules, the monster manuals and so on, contained adult themes and pictures of bare breasts, sans suckling infants. Naturally, lots of twelve-year-olds were attracted to it.

As illustrations of this principle, take `teen' magazines. Who reads them? Not teenagers. Pre-teens read them, because they deal with issues that are inappropriate for pre-teens. For example, sex. The surest way to get youngsters disinterested in anything is to write-down to them. TSR, Inc. realized it, did just that, and young boys, along with everyone else, stayed away from the game. School game clubs followed chain-mail bikinis right out of the hobby. TSR's strategy was so successful that they nearly went out of business and had to sell-out to a card-game company.

Food for thought.

Quote from: Serious PaulI'm sorry. That makes absolutely no sense to me. Forgive me for thinking it to be ...well the most retarded example anyone has ever given me.

I was hoping that, despite the your inexpicably illogical initial statement, some form of communication was possible with you, but it looks like either

1. Your thought processes are too alien from mine for meaningful communication to be possible.
2. You are rather stupid.
3. You are taking the piss.

Quote from: Serious PaulWell great the four of you agree. That's obviously a majority!

Quote from: Serious PaulObviously opinions differ since at least one person seems to think there is.

I've revised my opinion to a combination of 2 and 3.

Quote from: MelanIt was you who (basically) dismissed my argument as anecdotal (#72).

72?

QuoteThen you are working from a limited understanding of what the play style includes.

I must be, because what you describe below doesn't seem very much like a ""Dungeon Crawl" to me.

QuoteAre you familiar with the following?
Dark Tower
Caverns of Thracia
Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan
Pod-Caverns of the Sinister Shroom
Vault of the Drow
Tomb of Horrors

No. Never even heard of them. But then I play little D&D these days.

QuoteThese (and others; the list is not exhaustive) are all adventures I consider to be great examples of dungeon adventures. None of them are simple "kill the monster and collect the treasure in 10'x10' rooms" affairs.

Wait, isn't that what a Dungeon Crawl is? I'm confused. We obviously seem be trying to talk about the same thing, but we're obviously not using the same terms.

QuoteImagination, creativity, and excercising them, is something a substantially large minority of people is interested in.

I agree.

QuoteThis group is not an "elite" segment of the population at all, even if it clearly isn't a majority either.

I wouldn't argue for "elite", as that term is way too vague and nebulous, but rather I'd say that gamers who are actual "role" players, versus "roll" players, are fewer than you seem to imply. (It's hard for anyone to quantify any of this with numbers, so I hope yo'll bear with me.)

QuoteAs I see it, their capabilities, and their numbers, shouldn't be underestimated.

I'll agree, but when you write a role-playing supplement do write it so it is accessible to anyone, or just those smart enough to figure it out? Lowest common denominator right?

QuoteMost people go for passive entertainment, but there are many who are looking for something else. Creating user levels for computer games (a huge thing in the last years - see my review of an unofficial sequel to Unreal in the Electronic Games section of the board, or take a look at //www.thiefmissions.com) is one expression of this, roleplaying another.

Those people are the fringe market, as  see it, the people who might buy a book or two here and there. Some might stick around and buy more, others return to their MMPRPG's, a lot more just hang out at yahoo games trying out their Dominus Nox acts.

QuoteTwo different things.

Are they? I'm not sure I follow you here.

QuoteThe question is, how can roleplaying publishers tap it - for example, by giving this target market a game that virtually sells itself.

We certainly don't disagree!

QuoteA key element for this is not looking down on potential players, and respecting their intelligence.

Again we agree here. I don't think our view points are diametrically opposite, just  parallel.

Quote from: hgjsI've revised my opinion to a combination of 2 and 3.

Excellent, a new chew toy! Commence with the fun and games little girl!

And just to be clear, that really was the most retarded example I have ever seen in 31 years.

Quote from: Serious PaulExcellent, a new chew toy! Commence with the fun and games little girl!

I am impressed that you were able to guess my real gender from my posts.  Or maybe... you're posting from inside my house! :eek:

Quote from: Serious PaulAnd just to be clear, that really was the most retarded example I have ever seen in 31 years.

I'm sorry, but I can't say anything similar about you.  I used to work with developmentally delayed children, so the most I can honestly say is you're the most unexceptional person I've exchanged words with today.

Quote from: hgjsI'm sorry, but I can't say anything similar about you.  I used to work with developmentally delayed children, so the most I can honestly say is you're the most unexceptional person I've exchanged words with today.

I'm sorry. I see now that English is your second language, or that whatever educational was futilely wasted upon you still has yet to sink in. So let me spell it out for you:

Eat a dick up till you hiccup.

How you find the will to get up each day and live is beyond me.

Quote from: hgjsI'm sorry, but I can't say anything similar about you.  I used to work with developmentally delayed children, so the most I can honestly say is you're the most unexceptional person I've exchanged words with today.

BURNED!

On an unrelated (but entirely on-topic) note, what got all of you into this back when you were younger? I mean, all this terrified squabbling about what's going to pull folks away from gaming (oh noes! teh videogames!) is all well and good, but...

What got you guys into this to begin with? What is the equivalent of that today?

I mean, we can say that you guys got into fantasy and scifi on what? The stuff in pulp magazines? The Conan stuff? Asimov short stories? Or was it comic books? Or Saturday morning cartoons? Or Zelda?

Me, I started with books. Then there were cartoons and videogames. I had limited access to both earlier on, but I think they're a big part of what's making fantasy/scifi near ubiquitous today. Also comic books and the related franchises. Also much more recent live action TV series (five years from now before they're RPG material).

Pulps are gone. These are the closest substitutes we (younger gens) have. It's what we're getting raised on. It's what we're familiar with. It's what we'll game.

As for simplicity, were the games you played when you were younger simple? Did you care? Were they broken? Again, did you care?

Just some thoughts.

Quote from: Serious PaulEat a dick up till you hiccup.

Been there, done that. :cool:

QuoteHow you find the will to get up each day and live is beyond me.

I used to feel like that too, but then I discovered Scientology!