I see the future as an IP extension. D&D is doing miniatures, kids books, novels, posters, Chess sets, etc.

I think future RPG's will be built with this model in mind. 4e D&D will come out supporting the rest of the product lines in the IP.

V:tR sold the movie rights before it even hit print...SR sold video-game rights, there's an Exalted board game coming.

We're gonna get nickle and dimed

Quote from: Serious PaulDoesn't this sort of assume everyone's had a "good" Dungeon Crawling Experience? (Whatever that is, since I can't think of a dungeon crawl I've enjoyed-because that's just not my thing.)

There was no such assumption in that post.

Quote from: KenHRThere was no such assumption in that post.

Obviously opinions differ since at least one person seems to think there is. But maybe if you have some sort of information I don't or some insight you'd care to share it in some fashion we can all understand?

Quote from: Sosthenes(I still don't forgive Anime for that Neon Genesis crap, so I'm not that well versed in the subject matter. So I'd say that yes, there's a slight similarity between feats and class abilities and anime "named techniques/powers". But I think the original blame for that would be old superhero comics.

By the way, does anybody have some references to the predecessor of the 3E dungeonpunk style? For me that came pretty much out of the blue. Planescape and Dark Sun had some slight elements, but for me it was a pretty big gamble for WotC.

Well the more learned grogs spot that 3.x's feats and such grow out of 2.5's Options books, though the presentation and focus is usually described as either M:tG and/or anime (which usually means something like Dragonball Z). There's likely some correlation between supers, fantasy heroes, wuxia, anime, and gaming.

I've seen references (from an artist who has done work with WotC) to Wizards having a style document that specifically stated the term along with guidelines to avoid historical etc. styles. The avoid historical styles bit I'd heard before. Which makes sense, aiming for a specifically D&D look not pseudo-medieval or whatnot. Looking for the exact post.

Quote from: Serious PaulDoesn't this sort of assume everyone's had a "good" Dungeon Crawling Experience? (Whatever that is, since I can't think of a dungeon crawl I've enjoyed-because that's just not my thing.)

No it doesn't, any more than "instant steak isn't good steak" implies that everyone in the world has eaten good steak.  There are people on Earth who have never eaten steak.  That has absolutely nothing to do with whether instant steak is good.

Quote from: Serious PaulDoesn't this sort of assume everyone's had a "good" Dungeon Crawling Experience? (Whatever that is, since I can't think of a dungeon crawl I've enjoyed-because that's just not my thing.)

I mean maybe your D&D game is great but how does that mean anything to a kid who's idea of D&D is Diablo II? How do you put this into context?

No such assumption was made.

Now, in the case you present, publishers would be well served by providing DM advice on constructing and running fun dungeons, no? Dragon Magazine did this in its early issues, and there was some solid advice in the 1st edition DMG, not to mention the leading by example thing. Maybe 4e would be well served by a design philosophy like that - focus the DMG on making gameplay even more enjoyable, and - the big thing - putting a lot more emphasis on what differentiates well run D&D from a computer game. They don't need to do this explicitely - and probably shouldn't.

Second, the "dungeon crawling [or D&D] is inherently unfun" meme needs to die. Just because it is not everyone's cuppa, or just because some people had bad experiences with it* doesn't mean it isn't a great part of the tabletop experience.

*I think we shouldn't discount the possibility that, since both dungeon crawls and D&D were/are the gateway drug for beginner roleplayers, they are often remembered for the newbie mistakes newbies tend to make. This, however, is not a symptom of the dungeon crawling adventure type, but beginners in general. The challenge for designers, therefore, is not "moving out of the dungeon", but ensuring newbies grow into good DMs and players as fast as possible.

Quote from: Casey777I've seen references (from an artist who has done work with WotC) to Wizards having a style document that specifically stated the term along with guidelines to avoid historical etc. styles. The avoid historical styles bit I'd heard before. Which makes sense, aiming for a specifically D&D look not pseudo-medieval or whatnot. Looking for the exact post.

That was probably me last month. I certainly don't speak for Wizards in any way at all, I have to make that abundantly clear, but I have worked on D&D.  And that's of note more because of the volume of art I have made in the rpg industry prior to gettting to work with WotC - I've been round the block having worked for Eden, Green Ronin, AEG, Games Workshop, Kenzer, Guardians of Order, Mongoose, Hogshead, a ton of indies.

Its hard to explain Dungeonpunk with the brevity needed on a message board. And as I mentioned before, I 'm mindful of my NDAs here, so forgive me for not being more explicit.  Things you can glean from just looking at the body of 3E style art:  It is anime influenced, but its not pure anime. It is historically influenced but its not historical.  There's certain historical tropes associated with fantasy which are definitely not dungeonpunk.  The style guide is a fairly long document (as it should be), its well thought out, and the design work is strong, made by some of the best in the field.  If you don't dig it that's cool, and your absolute right.  But it isn't stupid, or badly done in terms of the state of the art in fantasy art.  Some people do try to assert that, and its really foolish. It can't appeal to everyone, but it was defintely well done.  

Ok, here's a bit of a ramble about the topic from someone who earns their lviing in it, and thus has given it more brain time than is normal.

Its really important to understand that to be successful commercially a product needs a strong, well defined IP.  Or "look" if you like, in this context.  Bugbears ears are a certain size so that if someone is ripping of Wizards' monsters they can point to some very specific parts of the IP and say "that is ours.  Every time that creature appeared in our work it looked exactly like that."  You need that level of tightness to better your chances in any potential court case. In that sense lawyers are involved in your art department.  They have to be with any business of Wotc size.

Now of course fantasy stuff is all very derivative, and the waters are very muddy.  But many companies have learned the lessons of Games Workshop, and I'm sure Wizards' games like Magic and Pokemon - if you are successful people will copy you.  And that's cool up to a point.  A lot of the people making these games are creatives who recognise the need to be part of culture - you feed from it, and give to it all simultaneously.  For many of us that's the very aim in itself, to be in that dialogue.   The creatives are understandably less territorial than the lawyers and accountants for sure.

But you do need to be able to legally defend your corner, and your creations so that you can prosper at the high commercial level of a Hasbro owned company.  For example, Games Workshop stuff is expensive, but then look at their facilities - they have a huge set up to create their worlds, which some punk in their back bedroom with a spin caster can rip off and sell for half the price, and still make more profit, having spent nothing on creating anything.  Now we all like to root for the little guy, and that's cool. But the little guy isn't making the world go round in quite the same way as a company that employs hundreds of people.  

For example, the benefit to the pen and paper games community of having the high street presence of a Games Workshop stores I feel is often underestimated in the UK, where we all love to slag GW as an evil corporation.  But for kids to be exposed to fantasy themes in the high street is a good, normalising thing for gamers.  However rip-off guy doesn't present any public face of the hobby.  He doesn't advertise really, nor bring in new people in the same way. He doesn't present the state of the art - merely a cheap imitation. What he does is hollow, and non-creative. Rip-off guy in his bedroom can actually damage honest people's livelyhood.  And once you start to loose control of your IP to rip off guy bad things can happen.

So that was a long ramble to say that its no surprise that Dungeonpunk  is quite individual.  It needs to be to be protected in court should the need arise.  And equally to provide something relatively original. Of course total originality is nigh on impossible to achieve and equally scares off all your customers in droves, so its not the only driving force.  But its there.  Novelty is important when launching something as big as 3E.

Anime was definitely an influence in 3E - its all there to see, and I'm quite amazed the Pundit misses it. However Dungeonpunk isn't just anime.  Anime as a style has been well digested by the illustration community for the last what? 15 years? Its not the next big thing at all.

Anime has been a big influence on what is now the driving force behind a lot of commercial fantasy art - computer games. That's where a lot of the high earning, influencial artists work.  //www.conceptart.org is a hugely influencial community in fantasy art, and its largely based around concept work for computer games (though not exclusively).   With computer games becoming ever larger - we're just beginning to see them eclipse the film industry - that influence will continue, no doubt.  The opening up of China, and the influence of Korean illustrators amongst others will also no doubt continue to be an influence.  Quite how that will pan out no one knows yet.

The computer games industry (or as its actually known outside of the teeny rpg niche, "The games industry") informs certain techniques - digital art is naturally huge in computer games.  A looseness of style suited to rapid production lines, and producing atmospheric, fantastical work.  Chinese styles that have digested both anime and western painting, then influenced the americans, who have then influence the japanese, back and forth... I could go on and on, but I'll spare you.

Going back to D&D, I think its also important to remember that there are some really creative people working at WOtC who really cared about making something new and exciting for 3E.  How would any of us feel if we had gained that level of responsibility?  I can't know this for sure, but I don't think anyone was cynical nor stupid about the development of the art style. These were competant people at work.  Its a tough job, balancing a lot of factors - commercial appeal to new customers as well as old, some level of originality, some level of familiarity and integrity to the pre existing material, a discernable and legally defensible IP etc etc.

So what the next incarnations of D&D will look like IMHO? I couldn't say. That style is actually still being developed out there in the wider illustration market, out there in "culture" if you like.  But I do trust the creative teams within Wizards to be on top of their game, to have a good eye, and to cherry pick the best to reflect the state of the art and to also serve their creative and commercial needs.

Games Workshop is an interesting example of a company who has nurtured its own style, fairly independant of pervasive fads, whilst clearly defining its own artistic identity.  Their Tau is one example of  them digesting some anime.  I would guess that's an aim for any company pretty much.  Be influenced, for sure, but ultimately build something you own and can defend.

$0.02.

Apologies for the double post.  Just wanted to find these two images, that say a lot about the influence of anime/manga on computer games, and that influence on 3E:

Lulu from Final Fantasy X:


Hennet the iconic sorceror from D&D3E:


Yes I realise I hilariously switched the titles btw.

That was interesting stuff Hodgson, and worth much more than two cents. Thanks.

Quote from: Serious PaulObviously opinions differ since at least one person seems to think there is. But maybe if you have some sort of information I don't or some insight you'd care to share it in some fashion we can all understand?

hgjs answered exactly as I would have.  You're the one claiming some deep insight and reading beyond the words.

Quote from: hgjsNo it doesn't, any more than "instant steak isn't good steak" implies that everyone in the world has eaten good steak.  There are people on Earth who have never eaten steak.  That has absolutely nothing to do with whether instant steak is good.

I'm sorry. That makes absolutely no sense to me. Forgive me for thinking it to be ...well the most retarded example anyone has ever given me.

Quote from: MelanNo such assumption was made.

Well great the four of you agree. That's obviously a majority!

QuoteSecond, the "dungeon crawling [or D&D] is inherently unfun" meme needs to die. Just because it is not everyone's cuppa, or just because some people had bad experiences with it* doesn't mean it isn't a great part of the tabletop experience.

I didn't suggest it shouldn't be. I was simply presenting the possibility, and I know how alien this must seem, that as new players approach the game-and not just D&D, all games- that the game has to have a way of catching their attention, and keeping it.

Why role play when Grand Theft Auto does the same thing with out having to roll dice, or interact with people who may or may not show up on a regular basis? Why dungeon crawl when Diablo II is so much easier?

I don't claim to have all the answers to those questions, but I do think those are questions that need to be considered.

Assuming everyone will just automatically fit into some niche somewhere is a bit absurd and lazy to me.

QuoteNow, in the case you present, publishers would be well served by providing DM advice on constructing and running fun dungeons, no?

I liked this, but then you want and said this:

QuoteDragon Magazine did this in its early issues...

Which to me, the cheap ass gamer, translates into "Buy more stuff and your game will be fun!" But I don't want to buy more stuff. I can't always afford to buy more stuff, and to be honest often enough more stuff equals crap wrapped as "cool and new"-when in reality it is neither new or cool.

I don't think that was your intent, so forgive me for a tangent.

QuoteI think we shouldn't discount the possibility that, since both dungeon crawls and D&D were/are the gateway drug for beginner roleplayers, they are often remembered for the newbie mistakes newbies tend to make.

Fair enough.

Quote from: KenHRhgjs answered exactly as I would have.

So your reply would have made little sense too? Okay, fair enough.

QuoteYou're the one claiming some deep insight and reading beyond the words.

?

O..o..kay then.

Quote from: Serious PaulSo your reply would have made little sense too? Okay, fair enough.

?

O..o..kay then.

My reply, just as that of hgjs and Melan, actually takes the words posted into account and doesn't read anything into them beyond that.  Nowhere did Sett say "Everyone has had this experience."  You read that assertion into those words, when the assertion wasn't made, nor was it implied.

I honestly didn't furnish an example because I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, believing you could parse English sentences on your own.  But apparently you can't, and you've also shown that you can't comprehend analogies, either.  Maybe that's not true; I don't know, to be honest.  It could be that you're just the sort that just makes ad hominem attacks when someone (or four someones) makes a point you can't argue.

But we're derailing the thread, so I'll just stop here.

Quote from: Serious PaulWell great the four of you agree. That's obviously a majority!

Aha, so you have data from representative market surveys. Great! Why not enlighten us? Out with the numbers!

QuoteI didn't suggest it shouldn't be. I was simply presenting the possibility, and I know how alien this must seem, that as new players approach the game-and not just D&D, all games- that the game has to have a way of catching their attention, and keeping it.

So far we are in agreement.

QuoteWhy role play when Grand Theft Auto does the same thing with out having to roll dice, or interact with people who may or may not show up on a regular basis? Why dungeon crawl when Diablo II is so much easier?

And here, you lost me. I have played Diablo II., and it doesn't replicate the dungeon crawling experience as I know it, and only does a bare bones imitation. Granted, World of Warcraft (which I haven't tried) is probably better. Neither features the following:
- creative input beyond what is programmed in (although MMORPGs and some very complex games like Deus Ex and Morrowind have something similar if distant, "emergent gameplay")
- the ability to approach problems any way you wish
- the ability of the DM and the players to change the focus of the action, speeding up or slowing down aspects of play, or focusing on minor details
- user-created content
- challenges that can be solved by any other means than applying a "rule" (attack roll/spell/special power) or manual dexterity - a module like Tomb of Horrors, Dark Tower or Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan would be impossible to do in a CRPG/MMORPG/Diablo clone
- interacting with/triciking/(usually cleverly avoiding) dungeon denizens which aren't programmed to do anything beyond attacking
- the social aspect of play is severely stunted in these games

And that's only a sampler. Now you could say that not all tabletop campaigns do what I described. That would be a fair statement, but a dangerous assumption - by the same token, I would claim that CRPGs have better plots than tabletop sessions (quite true, Final Fantasy VII. is infinitely more complex, and has more thematic layers than any tabletop campaign I have participated in). That's just defeatism. My proposal instead is to start from the assumption that tabletop roleplaying is fun; understand what makes it so, and build on this. In my opinion, dungeon crawls have a lot going for them which make them fun even when they are compared to the online experience.

(Geez, I am starting to sound like a WotC board meating... better stop...)

QuoteWhich to me, the cheap ass gamer, translates into "Buy more stuff and your game will be fun!" But I don't want to buy more stuff. I can't always afford to buy more stuff, and to be honest often enough more stuff equals crap wrapped as "cool and new"-when in reality it is neither new or cool.

I get that and would prefer such information to be included in a rule book.