Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckIf I want to dungeon delve, to kill things and take their stuff, there is an increasing array of games that can provide that experience on the console and the computer.

This statement is erroneous. Currently, no computer game can replicate a good dungeon crawling experience - although some can offer the copy of a poor one.

Hell, if someone came up with an accessible modern RPG type game over a mobile phone network, i expect it'd make an absolute killing. Sort of a sims type thing for the mobile.*

*As i'm horribly out of the loop on current technology, i expect that something like this exists already.

Currently, no computer game can replicate a good dungeon crawling experience - although some can offer the copy of a poor one.


Preach it!

Quote from: MelanThis statement is erroneous. Currently, no computer game can replicate a good dungeon crawling experience - although some can offer the copy of a poor one.

Well given that the sales of Console RPGs continue to rise, and tabeltop RPGs continue to fall, it sure as hell seems like more consumers are finding RPGs satisfactory on consoles.

Quote from: jdrakehWell, ultimately, I don't think that appealing to kids (few of whom have their own money, but rely on mom and dad for purchases and/or approval for purchases) isn't the best way to go. Other than that, I do agree that the products should aim for less complexity and lower prices (as that will make them accessible to most everybody, including children).

Hmm, I don't know if you got my drift, but I'm at the age now where by "the kids", I don't mean 8 years olds, I mean teenagers.  Anyone under 20 is a "kid" to me.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditHmm, I don't know if you got my drift, but I'm at the age now where by "the kids", I don't mean 8 years olds, I mean teenagers.  Anyone under 20 is a "kid" to me.

RPGPundit

Hi!

Quote from: jdrakehWhat RPG publishers need to be focusing on is why the vast majority of consumers will shell out $60 for a video game and, then, try to match the value that consumers perceive. I do not mean "make tabletop RPGs play more like video games" -- this is arguably the most least work-intensive approach to the problem, but it will also be the least effectvie as a result.

I think the reason is pretty clear. When I got pac-man or that game where you shoot the spaceships and try to defend Atlantis for my Atari... I played them for  an hour or so and I got bored.

Not a lot of gameplay options, limited graphics etc.

On the other hand, D&D was limitless.

But *now* I can buy Final Fantasy XII for my PS2 and it's a real RPG, with really good mechanics, fantastic graphics and I can play it for 100 hours.

Now D&D is still LIMITLESS, but it takes a lot more work for me to get 100 hours of gaming pleasure out of my D&D books than it does FF XII.

I don't have to invite my friends over, hell I don't NEED FRIENDS, I can start a game at 3 am after working all night, I can play every day or once every 4 months.

World of Warcraft takes something like THAT, makes it limitless *and* manages to fold in the social aspects of D&D as well.

Quote from: SettembriniHmmm. But they aren´t related in any way, no?

Only in the sense that our generation (well, my generation anyways) grew up on Sword and Sorcery fantasy, stuff like Conan, Elric, the Grey Mouser, Amber, etc etc.; and these things were a massive major influence on that generation of RPGs. There's a few other things you could point to here too, like Lovecraft, Star Wars, and obviously Tolkien, as well as DC/Marvel Comics.

The next generation of gamers will have to come into the hobby with their own set of youthful influences; and one major one that exists now that didn't exist when I was a kid is Anime.  Just like D&D is full of stuff ripped off of Moorcock or Howard, both in terms of setting, "memes" and even artwork; if future RPGs want to appeal to teens they will have to switch to having an Anime influence in both setting, rules, and artwork.

There are probably other new influences out there too, that I'm too old and out of touch to even notice.

In any case, I was also stating that in retrospect it was probably a mistake to have intentionlly made 3.x anti-anime in style and feeling; if D&D had been Anime-influenced instead of already-passe "dungeonpunk" it would have appealed to 14 year olds more than guys in their late 20s. And I for one would rather it appealed more to those 14 year olds, because they're the future of this hobby.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditThere are probably other new influences out there too, that I'm too old and out of touch to even notice.

Harry Potter.

As you've said before, you mean people under 20 when you talk about kids. I got into it a few years ago at age 15 or 16. You know what first struck me as awesome about it?





...A friend had a copy of MMII. I was just plain fascinated by the illustrations (and maybe some of the concepts). Especially the scorpionfolk illustration. That just straight up kicked ass.

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckI think the reason is pretty clear. When I got pac-man or that game where you shoot the spaceships and try to defend Atlantis for my Atari... I played them for  an hour or so and I got bored.

Here's the problem. . . you're confusing your personal experience with that if the planet. Packman outsold D&D like crazy. You didn't like it, but this doesn't change the fact that when it came to entertainment, most of the free world chose Atari consoles over D&D rulebooks.

Video games outstripping roleplayign games where sales are concered isn't a new phenomena. It isn't Final Fantasy XI that broke the barrier. As I mention elsewhere, instant gratification is part of the equation -- but that has been true since Zork was kicking around on an MIT mainframe.

And D&D isn't, nor has it ever been "limitless". D&D has, in fact, always had a rather specific limitation -- the imagination of the person with the rule book. For some people the fact that you have toi do all of the creating yourself is a very big stumbling block to entering RPGs. This is why some people prefer to play, but not to GM.

In tabletop RPGs, the GM basically fulfills the role that the game console does in video games -- they apply the rules to create a world and adventures. The players interface with that world, thouch typically by way of reaction, much as players sitting in front of a televeision set.

In this regard tabletop RPGs and video games have much in common. The primary difference is their accessibility -- tabletop RPGs always require more work on the front-end (e.g., learning rules, building worlds, etc) where video games don't require (and never have required) much work up front, aside from pressing a power button and plugging  in a controller.

Now, I'm not saying that tabletop RPGs should get rid of the work altogether (I don't think that's possible), but they should get rid of every bit that's not 100% necessary. And that's just a start, naturally.

Accessibility and instant gratification are not the only reasons that video games sell as well as the do and appeal to as many people as they do. Solo advebtyre game books, after all, offer both of those things -- yet they are nowehere near as popular as video games.

I'm saying that publishers should try actually examining they "why" behind video game success more closely than they currently do (i.e., not at all) and attempt to model it in print, instead  of dismissing the market dvidie between video games and traditional RPGs as a fluke.

No offense, but "People will pay $70 for a video game, so they'll pay that much for a book!" is crazy ignorant. And "Video games sell better 'cause consumers are lazy!" isn't much better. That said, I see both of these things being bandied about a lot by frustrated designers.

There is some hardcore justification and denial at work there.

Quote from: jdrakehHere's the problem. . . you're confusing your personal experience with that if the planet. Packman outsold D&D like crazy. You didn't like it, but this doesn't change the fact that when it came to entertainment, most of the free world chose Atari consoles over D&D rulebooks.

No, I *loved* it. You're missing the point. Even though I loved it, and even though it outsold D&D, it wasn't really a THREAT to scratch the gaming itch that D&D did.

So I played both.

What's different NOW is that even if you ARE a gamer like me, you don't *have* to find a group and get together once a week to scratch your gaming itch.

You *just* need that console or computer.

That's what's been changing. Before there were people who wanted to game and people who didn't, hadn't heard of it, whatever.

But now, even if you already like to game, there's still a chance consoles will "steal" you from the hobby.

World of Warcraft has massively accelerated this trend, and I expect the "next big thing" in MMORPGs to make this much worse.

WoW has completely killed gaming groups of people in my area- in the sense of physical gaming. They get together on Saturday night and play WoW, rather than getting together in Saturday night to play D&D.

Chuck

Quote from: RPGPunditIn any case, I was also stating that in retrospect it was probably a mistake to have intentionlly made 3.x anti-anime in style and feeling; if D&D had been Anime-influenced instead of already-passe "dungeonpunk" it would have appealed to 14 year olds more than guys in their late 20s. And I for one would rather it appealed more to those 14 year olds, because they're the future of this hobby.

Elric's a bishi-boy if ever there was one. Long hair, pale, angsty, has issues, deadly...

One criticism I've heard often from the anti-3.x crowd is that dungeonpunk and 3.x D&D in general is anime-esque. Kids these days!

Quote from: Casey777One criticism I've heard often from the anti-3.x crowd is that dungeonpunk and 3.x D&D in general is anime-esque. Kids these days!

Well, with enough drugs (prescription drugs for most grognards), even Elmore could be considered Pre-Raphaelite. Connecting Kevin Crossley with Pupil Fetishism is a bit odd...
(I still don't forgive Anime for that Neon Genesis crap, so I'm not that well versed in the subject matter. So I'd say that yes, there's a slight similarity between feats and class abilities and anime "named techniques/powers". But I think the original blame for that would be old superhero comics. It probably took even the Japanese a few decades to make something comparably stupid as the Green Lantern...)

By the way, does anybody have some references to the predecessor of the 3E dungeonpunk style? For me that came pretty much out of the blue. Planescape and Dark Sun had some slight elements, but for me it was a pretty big gamble for WotC.

Quote from: SettembriniCurrently, no computer game can replicate a good dungeon crawling experience - although some can offer the copy of a poor one.

Doesn't this sort of assume everyone's had a "good" Dungeon Crawling Experience? (Whatever that is, since I can't think of a dungeon crawl I've enjoyed-because that's just not my thing.)

I mean maybe your D&D game is great but how does that mean anything to a kid who's idea of D&D is Diablo II? How do you put this into context?