@Yamo:  The Rollplay vs Roleplay thing is about making some players feel like they're superior to others and not really playing a game -- they're doing something more... :rolleyes:

When I read the Pundit's rants about "The Swine", this is what it brings to mind.

On this point Stuart, you and I agree wholeheartedly.  It's a stupid cliche, an idiotic false dichotomy, and pointless ego wankery, all in a single phrase.

It does however serve the useful purpose of being an indicator that I don't need to take what it's user is saying at all seriously.

In my case it was at a college wargaming club back in the mid 70s. Balance? who cared? Broken? Who cared? Getting your ass chomped because the bastard was tougher than you? You cared, but bitching about the unfairness didn't get you shit.

True (so to speak) story...

We're going into the dungeon to do a bit of looting. I'm playing a first level magic user (as we called wizards in those days), a prestidigitator. He falls victim to a trap, and is plunged down to the 12th level. (There were some efforts back then that make The World's Largest Dungeon look like a small annex.) So there I am, seriously outclassed, and needing a set of stairs up.

I wander around and find no such beast. Figuring I had nothing to lose, I tried a random door, which opened to a dragon's lair. A red dragon by the way, which for an OD&D prestidigitator was hardcore enough.

I said, "Hello."

He asked, "What do you want?"

So I replied, "Do you know where I can find stairs going up?"

He gave me directions, I thanked him, and closing the door behind me headed for the stairs. Along the way I came across another door, and having an attack of curiousity opened that to find myself confronting a balrog (what you now call a balor.)

He demanded, "What do you want?"

I got an idea. I got a nasty idea. I got a vicious, deliciously wicked idea. So I asked him, "You know that dragon down the way?"

"Yea, what about him?"

"He'd said you're a wimp."

He got to his feet, told me, "Wait here.", headed out his door and went down to the dragon's place. Figuring I was pretty much dead if it didn't work, I waited there.

Soon the sounds of battle came to my ears. They stopped after a few minutes and the balrog came back. he said to me, "Thanks." and went back into his room.

I went back to the dragon's lair and found him pretty much hors de combat, with about one hit point left. Being a tender hearted soul, I put him out of my misery with a quick thrust of my dagger.

I found myself with more stuff than I could carry. So I gathered up a robe, a staff, a few rings and other bits of jewelry, and a nifty dagger that glowed in the dark. As I'm leaving with my loot (yes, I did take some of the gold) I hear a band of dwarfs coming my way, chanting the old dwarven favorite, the lyrics consisting essentially of, "Kill the dragon!"

Eight dwarven champions (7th level), the highest fighting man level dwarves of the time could achieve. Debouching from the stairway I'd been looking for they spot me coming out of the dragons room.

Their leader asks me, "Is that the dragon's lair?"

"Yes."

"How is the dragon?"

"He's dead."

"How's responsible."

"Well ... I am."

I got killed on the 9th level, but until then I was the only first level character in that campaign with 7th level henchmen. As far as I know, I might be the only person to play a first level character with 7th level henchmen.

(Yes, the game let you pull that sort of crap back in those days. )

Does "roll-playing" involve killing things and taking their stuff in a Diablo-esque dungeon crawl whose designer doesn't give a shit about lame-ass concepts like "dungeon ecology" (whatever the hell that means)?

Cause if that's roll-playing, sign me up for some of that.

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckDoes "roll-playing" involve killing things and taking their stuff in a Diablo-esque dungeon crawl whose designer doesn't give a shit about lame-ass concepts like "dungeon ecology" (whatever the hell that means)?

Cause if that's roll-playing, sign me up for some of that.

Nah, "roll-playing" is where you have croissants having hissy fits about crescent rolls.

Quote from: Serious PaulWhy role play when Grand Theft Auto does the same thing with out having to roll dice, or interact with people who may or may not show up on a regular basis? Why dungeon crawl when Diablo II is so much easier?

I'll hazard that it's because dungeon crawling is something you do face to face with real people. It's easy to forget that what usually starts people on gaming is a few friends looking for something interesting to do together, or somebody who wants to hang out with people in a venue other than a bar or dance club.

Nowadays videogames and the Internet do provide simulacra or substitutes for actual face-to-face socializing, so that's a real challenge for RPGs from a marketing standpoint.

I don't think that's completely healthy, though. Speaking as someone who enjoys both videogames and Internet fora--face-to-face is better.

So the trick isn't so much to compare a dungeoncrawl to Diablo as to ask what kind of structured social interaction can we offer people, to maximize their enjoyment of each other and get them away from their computers & consoles?

It may well be that a dungeoncrawl is one of the best formats for accomplishing this, since it offers a straightforward goal/orientation for play (kill/loot) and well-structured mechanical procedures. If you don't think people enjoy those qualities in their social gaming, well, look at the popularity of German-style boardgames. From this perspective, though, the question isn't how to lure people in with "narrative creativity" or whatever; on the contrary, the question is how much of the procedural/motivational "fuzziness" that typifies RPGs needs to be jettisoned? Or at least, how long does it need to be held at bay for the group to develop its own roleplaying skills & idiom?

Quote from: beejazzWhat got you guys into this to begin with? What is the equivalent of that today?

Exactly. In my case it was the availability of a group of smart friends who enjoyed stuff like wargames & RPGs. I'd read some Tolkien at the time I first played D&D, but I think my enthusiasm for fantasy (and in fact history) was strongly fueled by games, rather than the other way around, especially initially.

I'm along the same lines as Yamo here.  I think the role/roll dichotomy as a way to beat people down is losing steam, but using it as a valid (and non-judgemental) way to categorize playstyles is becomming the norm.

I, personally, don't get offended when being called a "rollplayer" -- some nights I just want to kick back, let my character kick ass and score some criticals on some orcs and shit.

Quote from: YamoAs much as some hate it, I'm beginning to think that "roleplay/rollplay" as a concept must be doing something right to keep coming up again and again. I've been hearing it nonstop since the 80s and don't doubt that it may have been around in the 70s, too.

If that many people over that long a time find it to be useful language for categorizing play, I don't know that it's any less valid than any other such system (GNS/GDS, Robin Laws' player types, etc).

Somebody should start a thread about it.

Quote from: mythusmageNah, "roll-playing" is where you have croissants having hissy fits about crescent rolls.

Dude... there need to be some baked goods RPGs. That is the way of the future (TM)! Wonderbread paladins...

...anyone else all talked out on this subject?

Quote from: beejazzDude... there need to be some baked goods RPGs. That is the way of the future (TM)! Wonderbread paladins...

Well, the character classes in the online game Kingdom of Loathing already include the Pastamancers and Saucerors from the League of the Chef-Magi...

Quote from: beejazzDude... there need to be some baked goods RPGs. That is the way of the future (TM)! Wonderbread paladins...

...anyone else all talked out on this subject?

Don't say that!!  The last thing we knead is a bunch of pale, pastry-faced geeks loafing around and tossing around half-baked ideas for the future of roll-playing.