Quote from: StuartI mean really specifically.  At the last LARP you were at, what was the actual challenge of the gameplay -- not the setting or back story -- the game you were playing, what was the challenge, and reward for overcoming that challenge?  Is the reward you receive based on your ability to overcome the challenge, or do all players get the reward regardless of their general effort / ability?

No snark.  An honest question.

Was "Not with a Whimper" the last LARP I played?  It's certainly the last one I remember, so I'll tell you about that one.  Here's the goal:  Go out.  Kill the fuckin' orcses (and werewolves ... oh God, the werewolves ... lycanthropy was extremely contagious in that game).  Figure out what the weakness of the demon-lord leading the army was.  Kill him fuckin' dead.

Then, of course, we had this whole snafu with the legendary heroes that we'd awoken as allies ... turns out they had all manner of interpersonal troubles, and this and that ... but generally the idea was "Kill the bad guys."

And hell yeah it depended upon effort and ability.  Our team had been drilling on combat maneuvers and sword-and-shield tactics for weeks before the session, and we rocked!  One of our members (one guy!) racked up more than one hundred face-to-face kills in a 48-hour game.  Plus, we had a paladin-heavy team build, so we had healing mana coming out our magical ... ahem ... orifices.  In a game where TPKs for at least three of the eight parties was the GM's stated goal, we held the line and provided healing and ressurrects (ever been called upon to ressurect a party of eight corpses?  We were, and did) that brought all eight teams hale and healthy to the final battle (substantially unbalancing it in favor of goodness!)  We rocked!

Quote from: StuartAt the last LARP you were at, what was the actual challenge of the gameplay -- not the setting or back story -- the game you were playing, what was the challenge, and reward for overcoming that challenge?

My character (a wandering and half-mad storyteller who had arrived to the coronation feast of the new High King to investigate the murder of his twin brother) got his revenge and lived, by sneaking out of the castle just before everyone else except for two others died at the claws of Grendel. And none of that ending was planned in advance...

QuoteWould you at least concede - given the arguments presented in this thread - that most LARPs ARE games, just as most tabletop roleplaying thingummies are games?

Yes, I'll concede that. Which leads us into thinking about which tabletop roleplaying thingummies are really games.

I think the Foam-Weapon combat aspect of LARPs seems like a game.

Quote from: GrimGentThe reward would be achieving your character's IC goals (which might be brewed up by the GM if the game uses pregenerated characters, or could have been decided by you at game start, or could be something you come up with partway through the game), just like every other RPG.

I think that's over generalizing.  Coming up with a challenge/goal/rules/reward halfway through a game is not consistent with all RPGs.

In fact, if the event (Live Action or Tabletop) doesn't provide you with the challenge/goal/rules/reward but rather a "Virtual World" in which you can choose your own -- it's not a game in and of itself.  It's an environment in which games can take place.

If it's a game -- you'd want to make it clear to the players what the challenge is, what the rules are, and what reward they get for overcoming that challenge.  Before the game even starts.

If it's an environment -- you want to offer good support to the GM and players in how to construct actual games within that environment.

That many "Roleplaying Games" are more environments or toolkits, with less than adequate support for new players and GMs to quickly develop solid *games* within that environment is, I think, at least one of a few major factors in RPGs being a niche hobby, compared to something more mainstream like boardgames.

Ahem... I think you'll find that you are quoting Warthur there, not me.

Quote from: StuartI think the Foam-Weapon combat aspect of LARPs seems like a game.

But not nearly every LARP uses boffers, and even then the mechanics for how the damage dealt to the characters during combat is handled vary wildly.

Quote from: StuartIn fact, if the event (Live Action or Tabletop) doesn't provide you with the challenge/goal/rules/reward but rather a "Virtual World" in which you can choose your own -- it's not a game in and of itself.  It's an environment in which games can take place.

So basically, you are dismissing Simulationism as a valid playstyle for roleplaying games?

QuoteSo basically, you are dismissing Simulationism as a valid playstyle for roleplaying games?

I'm dismissing the entire GNS theory completely.

Quote from: StuartI'm dismissing the entire GNS theory completely.

And if the PCs start out in a more or less static situation, and all the conflicts and challenges are subsequently generated by whatever pursuits they choose to engage in, naturally and without prior arrangements... that's not a game?

Quote from: StuartI mean really specifically.  At the last LARP you were at, what was the actual challenge of the gameplay -- not the setting or back story -- the game you were playing, what was the challenge, and reward for overcoming that challenge?  Is the reward you receive based on your ability to overcome the challenge, or do all players get the reward regardless of their general effort / ability?

The current LARP I am active in is Legacy, run under the auspices of Oxford university's RPG society.

My character has his own goals which he has been steadily working towards throughout the game, but in the most recent session I spent most of my time convincing others to help me go and catch the person responsible for murdering me (it's an odd sort of game) - once I've done that, I'll have dealt with my "Murdered" quirk, a negative thing I bought at character creation so that I could begin the game with more resources, so my reward will be I have a) achieved the IC goal of catching the guy and b) worked off the -1 point flaw I'd bought, making my character more powerful simply by virtue of no longer having the murders as a distraction.

And hell no, not every player gets reward regardless of their efforts. If you screw up, you screw up, if you get betrayed horribly you get betrayed horribly.

QuoteAnd if the PCs start out in a more or less static situation, and all the conflicts and challenges are subsequently generated by whatever pursuits they choose to engage in, naturally and without prior arrangements... that's not a game?

Let's say you and I dress up as vikings and go stand in the middle of a field.

Is that a game?

I think that's the potential for a game, but it's not a game in and of itself.

QuoteAnd hell no, not every player gets reward regardless of their efforts. If you screw up, you screw up, if you get betrayed horribly you get betrayed horribly.

But what does that actually MEAN?  If the reward is a fun narrative, is "screwing up" worse than succeeding?

I guess what I mean is, in some LARPs and some tabletop games I think the implied challenge is being creative, improvising, and staying in character.

However, sometimes you get rewarded consistently regardless of whatever you do in those areas.  And sometimes you get rewarded MORE for doing something else.

This is the heart of the complaint against Vampire.  You would think you would be rewarded for success at one set of challenges, but in fact you're rewarded for success at another.

Quote from: StuartLet's say you and I dress up as vikings and go stand in the middle of a field.

Is that a game?

That depends on the context of why we are there. If we have been left on sentry duty while the other vikings raid a nearby village, and we are keeping an eye for the enemy horde which might appear over the hills at any time, then yes, even if there's no other activity going on, it's still part of the game. (Or if we have been stranded on strange shores after the longboat was wrecked on the reef ,and we now have no idea where to go from there...)

Quote from: StuartI guess what I mean is, in some LARPs and some tabletop games I think the implied challenge is being creative, improvising, and staying in character.

The implied challenge in most freeforms I've participated in boils down to diplomacy and talking to people: convincing others that they should support you, and not others, keeping secrets from your enemies, getting information to your friends, that kind of thing.

QuoteThat depends on the context of why we are there. If we have been left on sentry duty while the other vikings raid a nearby village, and we are keeping an eye for the enemy horde which might appear over the hills at any time, then yes, even if there's no other activity going on, it's still part of the game.

Yes, if you add challenge and reward it becomes a game.

I'm guessing you're implying that the game is -- defend the base from the enemy horde.  If there isn't *really* an enemy horde... it's not *really* a game.  Just a setting.

If you and I dress up like Vikings, and instead of standing in a field are standing in a Viking encampment with tents, and vendors, and singing and people practicing in combat.

Is that a game?  Still no.  It's still the potential for a game.

In that setting we could make up games where we:
* Try to roleplay the best Viking
* Tell the best epic Viking poems
* Drink the other Viking under the table

Those are all games.  People at this LARP are usually playing some sort of game.  A few are just chatting with friends wearing costumes.  Those playing a game might not be playing the same game as all the other people, or even ANY of the other people there.  This Viking LARP itself is not a game.  It's a Roleplaying event where Roleplaying Games take place.

QuoteThe implied challenge in most freeforms I've participated in boils down to diplomacy and talking to people: convincing others that they should support you, and not others, keeping secrets from your enemies, getting information to your friends, that kind of thing.

In this way, those LARPs would be very much like the game Diplomacy.  The players engaged in this activity would certainly be playing a game.

Quote from: StuartYes, if you add challenge and reward it becomes a game.

The potential challenges are implicit in the situation and the characters. You simply cannot have a character without that potential. If you are just a guy in a viking hat, standing around and chatting about last night's episode of Lost, then you are not in the game, at least at the moment. You are not even in character, and there might be a special sign for you to wear so that everyone knows it. But if you are walking through that encampment in pursuit of some IC goal, no matter whether that goal has been assigned by another or chosen by yourself, then you are undeniably taking part in the game. And the general assumption is that you will be in character unless somehow otherwise indicated.