Over on ENworld, a guy has just declared that he's quitting gaming because gaming has basically gotten to the point where unless you're independantly wealthy, unemployed, or a university student, AND single, you don't have the time to prep and run RPGs the way they are played today, and how this is a far cry from the way it used to be in the old days, when anyone (even a kid) could GM relatively easily (if not well), and it took little time to set up or run a game.
Of course, to me this is the catch-22 of the gaming industry's current "spiral of doom". It has chosen to make monstrosities like Ptolus because guys in their mid-20s with high-level disposable income seem a bit more appealing profit-wise than little kids; so they make these big heavy hardbound glossy beautiful books filled with material that requires a serious level of time, dedication, and in other words drooling fanboyism. It has done this in pursuit of the immediate profit of selling a $90 book, instead of the slow investment of hooking a 12 or 13 year old kid on RPGs.
But that 25-year old rabid fanboy collector will very quickly become the 30 year old who is working 50 hour weeks and has two kids, and really can't (nor wants to) dedicate 15 hours a week to preparing, reading, and running his fancy games. So he quits.
Pretty soon, you've got an ever-diminishing group of geezers dropping from the hobby like flies, and you've got fuck all to replace them with, all because you thought you had to appeal to the drooling fanbase instead of trying to keep RPGs simple, keep them fun, and fast, and cheap for kids to buy.
RPGPundit
Not that I don't think that products being wildly overproduced for the sake of habitual collectors isn't a problem, but the dude in this thread still needs to realize that there are choices, even now.
Once choice are the many simple RPGs that are in print as we speak. Two examples would be Fudge and Castle & Crusades, both of which are affordable and lean toward the very simple in terms of both rules and presentation.
Another choice is older games. I picked-up an old copy of Gamma World 2nd edition last week that still came complete with the crayon in the box for around $8.00. All it took me was a couple hours reading and I'm now confident that I can run a quick, low-maintainence game of post apocalyptic psychic plant men fighting robots at the drop of a hat! In fact, I plan to soon. Add to this Toon, Marvel Super Heroes, "red box" D&D and others and you have a ton of simple, managable, FUN games and can be had for less the $10.00.
I'm not a PDF kind of guy, but there are lots of free PDF games out there. Finding a good one in all the mess can be tricky, but once you have, you've got yourself a usable RPG for free.
There are choices. If there weren't, I wouldn't be gaming at all now. Mr. Enworld seems inclined to just be somewhat of a quitter.
You know, without invoking a Blood War for mentioning their name, Palladium has long had a strategy of keeping their printed book prices lower than the rest of the industry. Yeah, they're black & white, but they've got solid bindings, and they're cheap enough where they're even in a kid's price range (pdf is a whole other story, I'll just leave off there).
I saw this in practice at Gen Con. We had a lot of older gamers stop by the Palladium booth while I was there, but you also saw a lot of kids who looked to be between the ages of 16-20 picking up 2 or 3 books for ~$10-20 each. It's nice to keep your games affordable for that crowd, and for the older folks as well who have 3 kids, a mortgage, a car payment, and don't want to have to pay $50-100 for the "new hotness". Admittedly, there are some folks who want full color plates and all the fixins and whatnot, and if they provide enough demand to keep those products coming, good for them. As for me, as I get older, my daughter continues to grow and need new everythings, my new house payment needs to be met, the dog needs his shots, and with every other incidental cost that being a good member of Middle America entails, those color plates and bells and whistles begin to look awfully superfluous, and cheap black-and-white illustrated games, pdf, and buying secondhand at Noble Knight look awfully good.
EDIT: And yeah, I don't know the guy in the ENWorld thread, but it seems like he gave up the ghost kinda easy. There are a lot of product he may have found much easier to GM for.
He might be suffering from the effects of an overly successful marketing campaign? :)
He doesn't need Ptolus, or even any other $100 worth of supplement books or a bazillion hours to prep. I suspect his needs would be filled by a game, or at least game-style, with a much lower prep time and that gets him to the table at $60 for two full sets of rules to split among 4 or 5 people, less than one admission and popcorn per person for months of evenings. That's with the nice to have two copies of the rules instead of the actual required one set. Well that exists today in a number of forms. It existed yesterday, and chances are extremely high it'll exist tomorrow.
There are a ton of easier games to prep than current DnD, including some earlier versions of DnD.
I don't have that much sympathy, a while back I found Runequest 2e was taking too much prep time for me. I played something else. DnD is a fine game and all, but there are other fine games and if DnD is not working for you there are other games that might.
It's like stopping playing computer games because you got stuck in the jumping puzzles in Half-Life. Play something else.
Ptolus actually SAVES you time. And which hobby isn't encompassing? Sorry, an adult who is not able to read 600 pages to have gaming material for two years w/o any further prep, I cannot take seriously.
QuoteThere are a ton of easier games to prep than current DnD, including some earlier versions of DnD.
Amen to that. When I was introducing the current crop of virgin-newbie-gamers a year or so ago, I naturally started them on D&D (sense of tradition ... plus, it's still a great place to start) but we used Mentzer D&D without any of the optional rules in play.
It was a higher-level run, though: I6: Ravenloft adapted to those rules, with the PCs around 8th level. Character creation, for total newbies, using a single shared copy of the rules, including fully equipping the characters, assembling spell-books and generating their existing magic items (including details like how many charges left, etc), took about 45 minutes for a party of five such 8th-level PCs.
Total, from blank sheet to done. After a potty break, we were heading into the mists of Barovia, just like that.
My DM-side prep was similarly breezy, and the resulting gameplay had a grand mix of satisfying crunch and rockin-out atmosphere and roleplay.
QuoteI don't have that much sympathy, a while back I found Runequest 2e was taking too much prep time for me. I played something else.
Amen to that, though I do agree with Pundit on the industry catering trends (on the other hand, he's preaching to the choir) ;)
Well, D&D is more prep intensive nowadays, but heck just how many games have been desigend exactly to counter this trend? Man, they fill bookshelves with generic, rules-light-crapulencia-generica for the lazy GMs out there. There are even Games with no prep at all...
Quote from: S. John RossAmen to that, though I do agree with Pundit on the industry catering trends (on the other hand, he's preaching to the choir) ;)
I printed out Pulp Egypt last night. I have no idea where that goes in trends, but that does a ton of prep for me and helps me run a game. I like that, I am unapolagetically lazy.
Quote from: BalbinusI printed out Pulp Egypt last night. I have no idea where that goes in trends, but that does a ton of prep for me and helps me run a game. I like that, I am unapolagetically lazy.
Pulp Egypt is a very fine thing :)
Pulp Egypt also exists outside the industry (like my own work) and thus is blissfully immune to industry trends, pro or con.
When the industry dies, I will dance on its fucking grave.
Quote from: S. John RossWhen the industry dies, I will dance on its fucking grave.
Even better, write a game about anime adventures exploring said Grave. :)
Quote from: SettembriniWell, D&D is more prep intensive nowadays, but heck just how many games have been desigend exactly to counter this trend? Man, they fill bookshelves with generic, rules-light-crapulencia-generica for the lazy GMs out there. There are even Games with no prep at all...
We're not all lazy, some people just like the rules lite approach better. Others have overwhelming RL commitments, so its rules lite or nothing. I fall into both categories.
Quote from: SettembriniWell, D&D is more prep intensive nowadays, but heck just how many games have been desigend exactly to counter this trend? Man, they fill bookshelves with generic, rules-light-crapulencia-generica for the lazy GMs out there. There are even Games with no prep at all...
You remember that game you asked about, Burning Empires? Crunchie rules and effectively zippo pre-game prep.
EDIT Ouside of actually reading the rules that is, so that does create a one-time prep-time requirement that is higher than say the Squirrel Attack! game mentioned below. To boot it almost fits under that totally arbitrary number I gave of $60 for 2 complete sets of rules. As in all the rules you'll need to, or even can buy. Unfortunately it only makes it if you count having the PDF + book for $45 (I'm not sure if that was a pre-order only deal). Two sets of hardcopy rules will set you back about the same as a DMG+PHB+MM, although you can sort of do a two sets of D&D rules on the budget if you have the means to use or print the D20 SRD.
And I'm only using that as an example. Because I don't want to step too hard on the board Guidelines, and because there are other very viable options out there too. This isn't about knocking on D&D. You can twist D&D into a playstyle that reduces prep time too. It just tends to not support it as well natively as some other systems.
Instead it is about this guy not sorting out his needs from wants, and then lumping all of gaming in with what he has in his head because he's not
looking. And perhaps the alternative options for him are failing to reach this particular guy with whatever marketing effort they have.
To be honest, we (Linda and I) saw the trends folks in this thread were talking about. We made Squirrel Attack! and Supers Inc. as a counter to it. SA! is 60 pages, a fantasy game about playing squirrels, pregenned characters, full adventure and full ruleset for $12.99. On top of that, it has a color interior. So, some companies do see the trends and are trying to do something about it. I honestly do wish more companies would see the trend as it is a viable market. SA!, in one year, has become our best seller out of 15 titles.
Now, I do not know if I agree that it spells the end of the industry (I personally believe such marketing is self correcting) but it will be painful when companies realize the mistake (i.e. some companies will shut down).
Bill
Quote from: HinterWeltTo be honest, we (Linda and I) saw the trends folks in this thread were talking about. We made Squirrel Attack! and Supers Inc. as a counter to it. SA! is 60 pages, a fantasy game about playing squirrels, pregenned characters, full adventure and full ruleset for $12.99. On top of that, it has a color interior. So, some companies do see the trends and are trying to do something about it. I honestly do wish more companies would see the trend as it is a viable market. SA!, in one year, has become our best seller out of 15 titles.
Now, I do not know if I agree that it spells the end of the industry (I personally believe such marketing is self correcting) but it will be painful when companies realize the mistake (i.e. some companies will shut down).
Bill
Huh. I always thought RI and Shades of Earth were #1-#2 for you guys. Live and learn!
Quote from: HinterWeltNow, I do not know if I agree that it spells the end of the industry (I personally believe such marketing is self correcting) but it will be painful when companies realize the mistake (i.e. some companies will shut down).
It is only a mistake if you overestimate your sales and make something that doesn't turn a profit when it is sold. Now do those sales cannibalize their other sales. In Monte Cook's case not really I think, but in other situations they easily could.
The good thing about them is that they won't reduce the overall money present in the market by their full price. So in a wierd way they might actually boost total market revenue figures a bit. But there is definately a limit to that as there certainly is a limit to how much the market will bear of boutique products.
P.S. Such foresight as yours in hitting on a market potential is why I think that RPGs, and ones that people actually will want to buy and play, will continue to be produced.
EDIT Incidentally is Squirrel Attack! your bestseller in $ too or just units?
Quote from: Zachary The FirstHuh. I always thought RI and Shades of Earth were #1-#2 for you guys. Live and learn!
RI was number 1 and now is number 2. It still sells well and I think we will continue once I get off my but and finish Britannia. SA! just was a run away hit for us. I think part is the alternative marketing I used but a big part was the ease of play and low price point. People could pick up a humorus read if nothing else.
And yes, Shades is number 3 now. I had always thought that one would take off. Go figure.
Bill
Quote from: blakkieIt is only a mistake if you overestimate your sales and make something that doesn't turn a profit when it is sold. Now do those sales cannibalize their other sales. In Monte Cook's case not really I think, but in other situations they easily could.
The good thing about them is that they won't reduce the overall money present in the market by their full price. So in a wierd way they might actually boost total market revenue figures a bit. But there is definately a limit to that as there certainly is a limit to how much the market will bear of boutique products.
P.S. Such foresight as yours in hitting on a market potential is why I think that RPGs, and ones that people actually will want to buy and play, will continue to be produced.
EDIT Incidentally is Squirrel Attack! your bestseller in $ too or just units?
Not yet. SA! is at about 900 sales at 12.99. RI is arounf 750-800 at 39.99. So, dollar wise, RI is leading but we are still selling around 100 per month but I expect those figures to slack off soon. Strangely enough, about 1/3 to 1.2 of those sales come from outside distro and generate a lot more revenue. RI sells much better in distro and thus nets us less.
Bill
Quote from: YamoEven better, write a game about anime adventures exploring said Grave. :)
Touche' :)
D&D is only as hard to prep for as you want to make it. If you want to use lots of NPCs with class levels and prestige classes, sure, it can take a lot of time.
OTOH, if you just use creatures out of the book it takes minutes of mechanics work to put an adventure together. Figuring out treasure can take some time, but the random tables (or simply giving the PCs piles of gp and letting them simply buy what they really want) cuts down on time.
On top of that, you can always just buy issues of Dungeon and run adventures out of them.
D&D is perhaps the most expensive game to get into it, and even then the amount of money you put out compared to the amount of use you get out of stuff is crazy.
Core Rulebooks: $90
Steel Sqwire Flip Mat and Dry Erase Markers: $15
DM's Screen: $15
Let's go crazy and throw in a set of counters or Cardboard Heroes: $25
Let's assume you don't have time to write adventures: $20 for 3 copies of Dungeon
$165 buys you everything you will ever need to run D&D, assuming you don't want to actually do any work yourself, for about a year. Pay another $25 per year, and you have adventures to last the rest of your life.
If you improvise miniatures and write your own adventures, you can cut that cost down to about $100.
Almost every other RPG out there costs about half that for the corebook and an adventure. WoD is around $90 for the core book, Vampire, Werewolf, or whatever, and maybe a sourcebook to get the game rolling.
Yeah, this is a preaching to the choir moment. I find myself buying less books because in the end they are becoming too hefty ruleswise, and then kinda pricey up front. I hope that soon I'll be able to just kick back with my home revised RC D&D, have some PCs gird weapons and kick ass for loot and fame. It'll be cheaper and faster.
In Brazil, you can buy the complete core rules of some games (3D&T) for less than 5 dollars. They use staple binding, a comic book format, and are available in most news stands.
Just a thought.
Quote from: Zachary The FirstYou know, without invoking a Blood War for mentioning their name, Palladium has long had a strategy of keeping their printed book prices lower than the rest of the industry. Yeah, they're black & white, but they've got solid bindings, and they're cheap enough where they're even in a kid's price range (pdf is a whole other story, I'll just leave off there).
This is undoubtedly one of the most brilliant things Palladium does, and one of the examples the rest of the industry should strongly consider following.
RPGPundit
Quote from: mearlsD&D is only as hard to prep for as you want to make it. If you want to use lots of NPCs with class levels and prestige classes, sure, it can take a lot of time.
This sort of thing is relative, but today I just played the "Temple of Elemental Evil" module, using RC D&D. Each player made two full characters right at the startup. It took 20 minutes.
How long does it take to make a full character (assuming you do know the system at a moderate, though not expert, level; and thus need the DM to walk you through it; and that you have some idea of what kind of character you want, but not a full one) in D&D 3.5 using the 3 core rulebooks? Certainly not 10 minutes per character.
How long would it take the DM to walk 3 players through making 6 characters?
The time gap between the time it takes to make a 1st level character with red box D&D, and with 3.5 D&D is a gap of untold numbers of people saying "this takes too much time to be worth bothering playing".
QuoteD&D is perhaps the most expensive game to get into it, and even then the amount of money you put out compared to the amount of use you get out of stuff is crazy.
Core Rulebooks: $90
Steel Sqwire Flip Mat and Dry Erase Markers: $15
DM's Screen: $15
Let's go crazy and throw in a set of counters or Cardboard Heroes: $25
Let's assume you don't have time to write adventures: $20 for 3 copies of Dungeon
$165 buys you everything you will ever need to run D&D, assuming you don't want to actually do any work yourself, for about a year. Pay another $25 per year, and you have adventures to last the rest of your life.
"cost" is also a very relative concept. Many of the people who wouldn't want to pay $165 dollars for a lifetime of gaming WOULD want to pay $10-20 per month for a lifetime of gaming, buying affordable entertaining but not necessarily gorgeously collectable RPG books on a regular basis.
A kid with an allowance of $50 a month can't get "everything he'll ever need to run D&D", but he can certainly buy a $20 palladium book every month if he wants to. Wizards could do some pretty good business with these kids, and hook them on RPGs for life.
I really wouldn't give a fuck if people were making the Wierdly Named Giant City in a beautiful full-colour hardcover for $400 or The World's Largest Forest in a slip-case of pure gold for $1400; if it wasn't for the fact that there's practically fuck all being done to hook the 13 year olds.
Wizards seems to grasp the concept of small affordable packages really well with the miniatures, why doesn't it get that it could make an RPG line the same way?
RPGPundit
QuoteI really wouldn't give a fuck if people were making the Wierdly Named Giant City in a beautiful full-colour hardcover for $400 or The World's Largest Forest in a slip-case of pure gold for $1400; if it wasn't for the fact that there's practically fuck all being done to hook the 13 year olds.
Spot on.
Quote from: RPGPunditWizards seems to grasp the concept of small affordable packages really well with the miniatures, why doesn't it get that it could make an RPG line the same way?
I suspect that's why the smaller packages of info, or however it was worded, made it into that rumour about D&D 4e. It was understood/hoped/believed that WotC was picking up on that.
I think there are some out there already. But you are right in that WotC isn't coming through on that lower price point yet. Which is bad because they are the ones in the best position of marketing clout and distribution to reach outsiders. They did at least price the initial run(s?) of 3e $10 cheaper which was a nice leader. But that was many years ago and aimed, I think, at their existing and prior AD&D customers.
I do think $100 of books is kinda a high barrier. That's one reason I like the 'very playable with one book' model. Of course to feed the beast WotC is going to follow up with serialization, and that's where it gets delicate with them trade-offing capability of the core of the game up front to encourage purchase of the serialization. :(
P.S. Monte Cook seems to have understood the $/month angle because apparently Ptolus was available pre-ordered on a monthly payment plan. It is also going to get released serially in PDF.
Quote from: RPGPunditmonstrosities like Ptolus
I
almost agree with all you're saying, but you seem almost pathologically against Ptolus in and of itself. It isn't Ptolus, or high-end products like it, that will be the doom of the hobby. It's the fact that the entry-level products for RPGs are so damned expensive now across the board.
Ptolus stands alone, almost a nonesuch, with only the World's Largest Dungeon to compare with it. Those are niche products, tailored to people with more disposable income or the foresight to preorder so it isn't such a big bite. They shouldn't be held as examples of what's wrong with the long-term economic feasibility of RPGs.
Many other hobbies have big-ticket items - take model-building as an example; it's a pretty niche-y hobby. A kid can buy a fairly cheap model that is snap-together and requires no painting, and he can get hooked into the hobby fairly easily. But there are some pretty damned expensive models out there, way more than $100, and which need many, many hours to complete. These high-end models don't discourage beginners, because there are plenty of less-expensive choices out there, which can fit just about any budget and level of devotion to the hobby.
Trouble is, RPGs are getting to the point that the least expensive books are about $30 now. There are fewer and fewer books that fit tight budgets. Add to that the likelihood that many RPGs leave out important aspects of the game from the entry-level book, necessitating that one buy more $30+ books to play all aspects of the game. Card and minis games are open-ended and subject to the "booster pack" syndrome, but at least the boosters are generally not as expensive per pack as a new splat book or the like. And, importantly, they're not that complex, and can be easily learned.
It's the high entry-level cost of RPGs, coupled with the often-by-design open-endedness of the game, that is the problem. Complexity is a problem if there are no less-complex alternatives. There are very, very few entry-level, self-contained, inexpensive RPGs out there.
So, it's not high-end stuff like Ptolus that's the problem. There aren't enough books like it for them to have made that kind of impact. It's the fact that the entry level for RPGs is complex and expensive in general. Back in the day, one could buy a $12 boxed set and have a complete game, but, and this is especially true for D&D, one could take a step up in complexity (and expense) if one felt so inclined - AD&D. Now, there is almost nothing for a newb to do but to take that "step up" immediately just to get into the hobby. Sure, there are more and more basic sets and "lite" or "fast play" rules sets out there now, but it seems that they are too little, too late, and many of them seem like "crippled" or demo versions of the main game, rather than games in and of themselves.
In essence, I agree that the RPG industry, such as it is, is doing the same thing that the comics industry did - it focused on making products for an aging fan base to the exclusivity of bringing in new customers. It's not that the expensive stuff is causing the problem. It's that the low-end of the spectrum has been abandoned - to other hobbies like cards or minis, I presume. Why RPG companies have done this isn't entirely clear - the guys who can afford the investment (of money and time) for the big-ticket items will still be there, regardless if the companies also try to cater to the low-ticket end of the spectrum.
Quote from: RPGPunditI really wouldn't give a fuck if people were making the Wierdly Named Giant City in a beautiful full-colour hardcover for $400 or The World's Largest Forest in a slip-case of pure gold for $1400; if it wasn't for the fact that there's practically fuck all being done to hook the 13 year olds.
Wizards seems to grasp the concept of small affordable packages really well with the miniatures, why doesn't it get that it could make an RPG line the same way?
RPGPundit
OK, so it seems you and I are grokking the concept similarly. I just think that criticizing upper-tier items is pointless. It's natural for there to be an upper tier. What's unnatural is for the lower tier to be dropped like a hot potato.
Quote from: HinterWeltStrangely enough, about 1/3 to 1.2 of those sales come from outside distro...
What is your hunch about what this means for the different profile of the customers? Do you think maybe you're not getting good shelfspace or draw in the stores because of the smaller format, or the subject matter is leading to odd placement in stores? Or do you think you are selling this book to people outside of the industry?
Quote from: ColonelHardissonOK, so it seems you and I are grokking the concept similarly. I just think that criticizing upper-tier items is pointless. It's natural for there to be an upper tier. What's unnatural is for the lower tier to be dropped like a hot potato.
To me it's all symptomatic. It goes something like this:
(1) The CCG boom [1993-1998 or thereabouts] breaks the distribution structure by forever alterting distributor's expectations and methods. At this point, the industry is fatally wounded and must spiral away.
(2) There are certain hardcore people who will, even after the curtains close, still be waiting around and wondering where their monthly fix of "support" titles are coming from. There aren't a lot of these people (they're by no means the general RPG buying public), but they can support a reasonable print run of certain kinds of things. In the downward spiral caused by (1), this group provides a kind of bedrock beneath the shifting and less-predicable layers of general fandom above.
(3) Any title aimed at the tastes and print-run scale implied by (2) can be a safe investment, with any sales to the more general public being a bonus. Toss in some d20 ties and you can boost that minimum print run to somethng much more respectable.
(4) Given the shrinking scale of most other parts of the industry, things like the titles generated by (3) become more and more attractive with the passing of time, and titles with less-certain fates (those aimed higher above the hardcore bedrock, into the shifting fortunes of general or even [gasp] newcomer fandom) look riskier and riskier at any kind of scale.
On a more personal note ... As I've mentioned earlier and elsewhere, I'm currently GMing for a group that were, a year or so ago, total 100% newbies to gaming. These are younger folks of the videogame era. They had heard of D&D. They were very curious about D&D. They bought a stack of WotC core hardcovers and got a group of their friends together (a nice mix of smart folks) ... and were bewildered by them. They shelved the books to gather dust and decided that paper gaming sucks ... until they met me.
Now, runs of D&D, Gamma World, Savage Worlds and many others later, they're looking to be eager lifers.
Those who dislike what this implies can very reasonably discard it on the grounds that it's anecdotal. Those who agree strongly with what it implies can embrace it as if it were typical. From the inside I know it's neither, but it isn't without lessons: price-point isn't the only matter when it comes to snagging younger gamers. I don't advocate "rules-light" for newcomers, not at all ... But I do think there's also a "rules-heavy" threshold as well, and a sweet spot somewhere in the middle, a sweet spot that the TSR games were much closer to than the WotC one.
That also said, I do feel that the industry (by which I mean the three-tier traditional one) is fatally wounded, and
has been for years, and is currently limping along mostly on d20 life-support. Nothing has come along to cauterize the wound, let alone heal it. Right now there's just a thumb in it, and one that may well go away sometime depending on WotC's course in the next couple of years.
I have no faith in WotC as a healer of that hole. It wouldn't be in their interests; it isn't central to their model and it isn't their job to do so. So big-dog or not, they can help the industry limp along but they won't actually revitalize it. I haven't the foggiest idea what would. In matter of full disclosure I don't personally
care if anything does. Even if everything shrinks to the point where I can no longer cover my time with Cumberland titles, I'll just switch to fontmaking to buy the groceries and keep cranking out RPG freebies. I'm in it for the gaming and the industry's output is increasingly irrelevant to my gaming table, so it's all win-win for me.
Also, and on a sunnier pro-WotC note. I think WotC's low-price starter box-sets (especially the cheaper 3.0 one) were a nice go. I'm not sure how my current group would have fared had they found one of those instead of the hardcovers: it may well have been sufficiently friendly to hold their interest, because they went into their personal D&D quest with a LOT of interest ... so much that it took WotC corebooks to defuse it.
QuoteBut I do think there's also a "rules-heavy" threshold as well, and a sweet spot somewhere in the middle, a sweet spot that the TSR games were much closer to than the WotC one.
This is the real problem. You have to teach D&D to people. It's basically impossible to start RPGing with the three core books.
Quote from: SettembriniThis is the real problem. You have to teach D&D to people. It's basically impossible to start RPGing with the three core books.
I think it probably is, yeah, and it's a bit of a downer to gamers like me, because I'm one of many who _did_ learn entirely from reading TSR rules (original yellow-box Marvel Superheroes, to be precise, which was targeted specifically at newcomer/crossover customers and in my case struck that target perfectly).
Word-of-mouth and personal teaching have always been the backbone of the hobby's growth, but it wasn't always
alone.
Quote from: blakkieI suspect that's why the smaller packages of info, or however it was worded, made it into that rumour about D&D 4e. It was understood/hoped/believed that WotC was picking up on that.
"smaller packages of info" have a very troubling connotation to them; it implies that they would be selling the rules chapter-by-chapter; or that you'd have to pay for the "spell level 4 booster packs" where certain spells would be "ultra rare" or some kind of utter shit like that.
Whereas in reality, what they need to do is make a $20 D&D book that you can play to AT LEAST level 10 (ideally the full level 20) and where you can make a character and start playing in under 10 minutes.
RPGPundit
Clearly, Pundit, the youth of the world needs FtA!
Go for it!
Quote from: ColonelHardissonPtolus stands alone, almost a nonesuch, with only the World's Largest Dungeon to compare with it. Those are niche products, tailored to people with more disposable income or the foresight to preorder so it isn't such a big bite. They shouldn't be held as examples of what's wrong with the long-term economic feasibility of RPGs.
It is the vanguard of an ever-escalating trend. The Worlds Largest Dungeon/City and Ptolus are only the LATEST step. It wasn't that long ago that people were saying a $50 game book was unthinkable; but the collectors "demanded" it.
Now, apparently, they've demanded the $100 book.
Eventually, mark my words, they'll demand the $300 book. All four fanboy collectors that are left by then, of course. And what a book it will be: full colour, printed on vellum, each page will emanate the scent of fucking rose petals... an orgiastic feast for the senses in celebration of the industry flushing itself down the fucking toilet in an act of voluntary suicide.
QuoteIt's the high entry-level cost of RPGs, coupled with the often-by-design open-endedness of the game, that is the problem. Complexity is a problem if there are no less-complex alternatives. There are very, very few entry-level, self-contained, inexpensive RPGs out there.
In essence, I agree that the RPG industry, such as it is, is doing the same thing that the comics industry did - it focused on making products for an aging fan base to the exclusivity of bringing in new customers. It's not that the expensive stuff is causing the problem. It's that the low-end of the spectrum has been abandoned - to other hobbies like cards or minis, I presume. Why RPG companies have done this isn't entirely clear - the guys who can afford the investment (of money and time) for the big-ticket items will still be there, regardless if the companies also try to cater to the low-ticket end of the spectrum.
Exactly. RPGs were at their peak when they were making $5 fighting fantasy books, and you could get the whole D&D game for under $20. What we have now is nothing short of willful suicide.
And I'll tell you why they're doing it: because they've fallen for that idiot's trick of believing that they have to listen to their loudest most extreme, most lobbying fans.
The drooling fanboys.
The collectors.
The non-gamers.
And those guys are telling them that the industry wants RPGs to be about "themes" for "mature" players, that they must be catered to or they will leave, that it has to be about them, and not about the kids, because they're fundamentally selfish fucks who don't give a shit if the hobby ends up disemboweled as long as they got theirs for another year. Apres moi le fucking deluge is their motto, gang of fatbeard fucks.
RPGPundit
Keep Ptolus out of it, Pundit, for fuck's sake!
It's a fucking playable thing, unlike the mess that Wilderlands is. Ptolus you can flip open and USE.
What is Wilderlands, that you speak so highly of, else than a fatbeard nostalgia onanistic orgy of material bloat for fucking €75!?
Get real, Ptolus has n-o-t-h-i-n-g to do with it.
Ptolus is notable only because of its "conspicuous consumption", if you would. But I have no issue with it is as it is, inherently; it is the mentality that has caused it that is the problem. Ptolus shouldn't exist, not in the format its in.
RPGPundit
Hahaha!
Considering that I'm prepping for my next Wilderlands campaign (or several) right now, that's pretty funny.
Monte Cook can produce something on that level in his wildest, wettest dreams. Maybe not even then. :p
QuoteConsidering that I'm prepping for my next Wilderlands campaign (or several) right now, that's pretty funny.
Cool for you, but don`t tell me it's easy to use or low-prep time.
Quote from: SettembriniCool for you, but don`t tell me it's easy to use or low-prep time.
I'll tell you just that. Prep time is the time to read the next hex description: No more, no less.
Quote from: RPGPunditPtolus is notable only because of its "conspicuous consumption", if you would. But I have no issue with it is as it is, inherently; it is the mentality that has caused it that is the problem. Ptolus shouldn't exist, not in the format its in.
RPGPundit
Bollocks, as you yourself say elsewhere, the problem isn't the high end books - it's the lack of low end books.
Plus Ptolus by all accounts is definitely designed for play. As for that matter is The World's Largest Dungeon. These are not books for readers.
So, I agree that we need more Palladium style easy entry books, definitely, but the existence of books like Ptolus and TWLD is not the problem - the cash rich time poor segment of the adult gamer market needs to be catered too as well and that's what those do. The problem is not those guys being catered to, it's the new guys not being catered to.
Quote from: SettembriniWhat is Wilderlands, that you speak so highly of, else than a fatbeard nostalgia onanistic orgy of material bloat for fucking €75!?
Heh. I have a friend who started with 3e who (to quip a saying from Kanegrudar) loves Wilderlands like a fat kid loves Little Debbies. Its play style suits her.
That said, I agree with the general point that Ptolus is a highly functional game product.
Quote from: SettembriniWhat is Wilderlands, that you speak so highly of, else than a fatbeard nostalgia onanistic orgy of material bloat for fucking €75!?
This, in a nutshell, captures the charm of this site and why I have taken to posting here.
However, I actually have no idea what Wilderlands is. Can anyone fill me in?
Quote from: RPGPundit"smaller packages of info" have a very troubling connotation to them; it implies that they would be selling the rules chapter-by-chapter;
$10 to $20 a month for a lifetime of gaming? Unlikely to burn through more than 3 or 4 levels a month. ;)
Seriously though, it could have been refering to any number of serialization forms. Especially considering we were apparently at the end of a Telephone Game line. :(
QuoteWhereas in reality, what they need to do is make a $20 D&D book that you can play to AT LEAST level 10 (ideally the full level 20) and where you can make a character and start playing in under 10 minutes.
I'm curious what you think they'd need to rip to get it down to that? Maybe Cleric/Mage/Fighter/Rogue? Drop halfling or gnomes? Super trimmed back spell list? Or better yet a trimmer renovated magic system.
Indeed there is that old marketing addage of being able to sell anything if the price is $19.95 or less. Although perhaps with inflation that's boosted a little bit?
Speaking of which I do seem to recall that in the latish 80's I paid something like $20 CDN for my 1e AD&D PH book. Or maybe that was the DMG. They're both buried in boxes somewhere, can anyone confirm that?
Quote from: BalbinusHowever, I actually have no idea what Wilderlands is. Can anyone fill me in?
Wilderlands is a way old setting released as a third party product by Judges Guild back in the early days of D&D. It recently has seen a reprint under 3.5e/d20 rules by Necromancer Games, and I am now to understand that Troll Lords have received an offer to release it for Castles & Crusades.
Wilderlands is almost a setting designed in dungeon format. That is, the setting is hex mapped, and encounters and situations are scattered across the map, keyed to hexes.
Wilderlands has a small but vocal and loving fan base. They seem to enjoy the play style of just running with a few dropped hints and a bit of serendipity to drag PCs across the various encounter hexes of the setting.
I appreciated it mainly in that it is one of a few settings that actually supports psionics. ;)
In Defense of Wilderlands, I have to say: It's a fatbeard's wet dream, and i love it. but it's neither newbie friendly (a lot of improvisation needed) nor entry level priced.
Quote from: BalbinusBollocks, as you yourself say elsewhere, the problem isn't the high end books - it's the lack of low end books.
I agree with Balbinus here.
This reminds me of movie producers who make huge blockbusters in order to finance their personal (but less profitable) projects. We wouldn't have
Good night, and good luck without George Clooney starring in a few box office hits before, for example.
Quote from: BalbinusThe problem is not those guys being catered to, it's the new guys not being catered to.
Or, for those that follow my line of thinking: the problem is neither, and both are inevitable
symptoms of the general scale shift.
QuoteOr, for those that follow my line of thinking: the problem is neither, and both are inevitable symptoms of the general scale shift.
Elaborate! To me it sounds like hen and egg. What's your take on it?
Quote from: SettembriniElaborate! To me it sounds like hen and egg. What's your take on it?
I did a post about that just a page or so back. :)
Quote from: SettembriniCool for you, but don`t tell me it's easy to use or low-prep time.
Settembrini, are we talking about the same wilderlands?
Its the ULTIMATE low prep-time. You plant the adventurers down on a hex, they start moving and you see what they move into.
RPGPundit
Basically, Ross is apparently one of those who believes that the RPG industry is utterly doomed and nothing will save it at this point, so it doesn't really matter.
A position which, if that is indeed what he thinks, I find utterly silly.
RPGPundit
QuoteYou plant the adventurers down on a hex, they start moving and you see what they move into.
OK, say me a hex number, I'll look it up, and I'll come back and talk to you about it. Deal?
I couldn't care less about the industry.
Growth in gaming comes from writing accessible, fun games, and from having gamers willing to teach games, to be friendly, to encourage others to get good play with people they like.
The industry is doing a little of that, but not enough. So to hell with the industry. I'll do it myself, and I'll do it for myself.
Quote from: RPGPunditBasically, Ross is apparently one of those who believes that the RPG industry is utterly doomed and nothing will save it at this point, so it doesn't really matter.
No.
QuoteA position which, if that is indeed what he thinks, I find utterly silly.
I would, too :)
My personal prediction for how it will all end:
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005UQ9H.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)
That's thanks to some insider info I got from the same guy who told me D&D 4e is coming out this November.
Quote from: S. John RossNo.
I would, too :)
Ok, so what the fuck are you saying, then? Because that's certainly what your earlier post sounded like. You implied that RPGs had been dealt a "fatal blow" back in the 90s, and that the "disruption" of the patterns from that moment on meant that nothing could really be realistically done to save the industry from being reduced to a tiny cottage industry. You also expressed that Wizards has no interest in saving the industry, just in keeping it limping along trying to detain the hemmorage long enough to make a few bucks.
That's what I got out of your diatribe. Now tell me what you really meant, and try to keep it simple.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditOk, so what the fuck are you saying, then?
I've already said it, and you've had your fun mischaracterizing it, so we've all done just fine.
A hint: If you want to try to stir things up with me, pick a topic I care about and that'll work ... Don't try it with something I've already stamped with the brand of my deepest apathy.
Silly indeed ;)
Quote from: Levi KornelsenI couldn't care less about the industry.
Growth in gaming comes from writing accessible, fun games, and from having gamers willing to teach games, to be friendly, to encourage others to get good play with people they like.
The industry is doing a little of that, but not enough. So to hell with the industry. I'll do it myself, and I'll do it for myself.
And if you write a newsletter, I'll subscribe to it.
Quote from: S. John RossI've already said it, and you've had your fun mischaracterizing it, so we've all done just fine.
A hint: If you want to try to stir things up with me, pick a topic I care about and that'll work ... Don't try it with something I've already stamped with the brand of my deepest apathy.
Silly indeed ;)
I wasn't trying to mischaracterize it, I was honestly giving my reading of what you wrote above. If you intended to mean something different, I would be very interested in knowing what that was, because I didn't get it, and I suspect others didn't either...
RPGPundit
Quote from: JamesVAnd if you write a newsletter, I'll subscribe to it.
My newsletter is for local LARPing. Seriously.
But I do write a journal.
http://the-tall-man.livejournal.com/
Oh, and I'm writing a game.
Quote from: RPGPunditSettembrini, are we talking about the same wilderlands?
Its the ULTIMATE low prep-time. You plant the adventurers down on a hex, they start moving and you see what they move into.
RPGPundit
I think what Settembrini is getting at is that the Wilderlands has tons of great adventure hooks (and bear in mind I was part of the team that did the update), but one still has to provide stats for any encounters. It's not that fleshed out. Ptolus
is fleshed out, and pretty much has everything one needs right there and ready to use - stat blocks, cross-references to other related encounters, etc.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonI think what Settembrini is getting at is that the Wilderlands has tons of great adventure hooks (and bear in mind I was part of the team that did the update), but one still has to provide stats for any encounters. It's not that fleshed out. Ptolus is fleshed out, and pretty much has everything one needs right there and ready to use - stat blocks, cross-references to other related encounters, etc.
It would seem to me that this isn't a huge issue, given that you can just use the bog-standard monster manual stats for anything that isn't actually stated out in the books...
RPGPundit
QuoteIt would seem to me that this isn't a huge issue, given that you can just use the bog-standard monster manual stats for anything that isn't actually stated out in the books...
NPCs with class levels? Much work!
Dungeons?
Traps?
Murder Mysteries?
Clues?
Handouts?
Not seen any of this in the Wilderlands Box.
Quote from: SettembriniNPCs with class levels? Much work!
Dungeons?
Traps?
Murder Mysteries?
Clues?
Handouts?
Not seen any of this in the Wilderlands Box.
I think its the difference between "old-school" and "new style" play here: if I'm running wilderlands, I'm playing an "oldschool" game and I will almost certainly do these things by either:
a. Making it all up as I go along.
b. generating it randomly
or
c. using the stats directly out of the monster manual/books.
So if you're in that old-school mode of thinking none of this takes any time at all.
Of course, Ptolus will be in a new-school mode of thinking and play, and if it didn't fully stat stuff out, running an actual game in that setting would be a bitch of a hassle, because it would probably ruin the "atmosphere" if everything felt randomly generated or tacked on; whereas in a setting like the Wilderlands that's part of the charm.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditIt would seem to me that this isn't a huge issue, given that you can just use the bog-standard monster manual stats for anything that isn't actually stated out in the books...
RPGPundit
It's a lot easier to use one book than to have to reference several others while in the middle of a session.
Well you can get away with winging the stats. There is enough source materail to pull from for D&D.
But you gotta prepare an adventure nonetheless. And you had to do it in oldskool times too.
riddles
conflicts
puzzles
traps
handouts
maps!
dungeons
treassure
etc. ad nauseam
So, praytell, if Wilderlands is so "easy to use" why do you play warhammer, or prep intensive roman campaign or T1-4 instead? Haven't seen any Wilderlands replay fronm you.
Come on Pundit, I like Wilderlands too, But it is as useful as a Traveller Sector: Great Inspiration and baseline. But not ready to use...
EDIT: Pundit you have GMed 3.x, do you? At higher levels?
BTW, you didn't answer my HEX request...
Trust me that I want to run a Wilderlands campaign, but coming fresh off from my D&D Classic campaign it wasn't the right moment. Its time WILL come, I assure you. Shit, the Wilderlands is the default setting I had in my head when I wrote up FtA.
As for the hex, I don't get what your point is, do you just want me to name a random hex?
RPGPundit
Yes name a hex, I look it up and we'll talk about how to play with just that info and no further prep.
Boy the bugaboo you are making out of Wilderlands want me to actually have something like that: Exploration, Adventure w/o prep time!
I still don't believe it, but I'm open enough to be proven wrong.
I would be interested in this experiment on general principles just because I'm a fan of Necromancer Games and am looking down the road at trying to pick up a copy myself.
Quote from: SettembriniYes name a hex, I look it up and we'll talk about how to play with just that info and no further prep.
Boy the bugaboo you are making out of Wilderlands want me to actually have something like that: Exploration, Adventure w/o prep time!
I still don't believe it, but I'm open enough to be proven wrong.
It's noteworthy that just because you couldn't do it comfortably without prep time, that someone else couldn't. For some GMs, this could be just the sort of info they need to get rolling for their type of game (which might not include many of the items you cite above in your list of necessities) with minimal prep time, making up all remaining details on the fly.
QuoteIt's noteworthy that just because you couldn't do it comfortably without prep time, that someone else couldn't. For some GMs, this could be just the sort of info they need to get rolling for their type of game (which might not include many of the items you cite above in your list of necessities) with minimal prep time, making up all remaining details on the fly.
I totally believe in that possibility, but I want to actually see it. Let's try this, maybe in Pistols @ Dawn thread?
Quote from: Caesar SlaadIt's noteworthy that just because you couldn't do it comfortably without prep time, that someone else couldn't. For some GMs, this could be just the sort of info they need to get rolling for their type of game (which might not include many of the items you cite above in your list of necessities) with minimal prep time, making up all remaining details on the fly.
I think it is less to do with ability than with Settembrini's standards. From the RIFTS gaming example he gave I believe he brings a lot to the table. Literally and figuratively. He is very detailed and explicit about what is seen. To put it roughly in painting terms he is sort of a Realism vs. Impressionism. He provides the finer details instead of the viewer(player) doing so.
I believe it primarily a difference in style. Which is cool. It sounds like he executes his style well. Even though it's not my normal cup of tea, I imagine I'd appreciate and enjoy the occational game with him GMing.
Quote from: SettembriniI totally believe in that possibility, but I want to actually see it. Let's try this, maybe in Pistols @ Dawn thread?
Honestly, I used to do it back in 1e. At that time, I knew the rules and monster stats so well I could run it from memory. Now, though, there's no way I could do it.
QuoteAt that time, I knew the rules and monster stats so well I could run it from memory.
This I totally believe, and I can also run a merchant free trader game w/o prep witrh a traveller sector in my hand.
But for D&D this would mean encounter, after encounter after encounter, wtihout any sense and no dungeons, traps, puzzles or whatsoever, no story. Maybe I just don't grok it. Explain!
Let's stop saying: Can do, open a thread and show me what you can pull ou with just the hex description!
Could be interesting, kind of an Iron DM contest type situation, I know that I'd read it at least, might try my hand as well were the hex info made available.
Quote from: SettembriniBut for D&D this would mean encounter, after encounter after encounter, wtihout any sense and no dungeons, traps, puzzles or whatsoever, no story. Maybe I just don't grok it. Explain!
It's basically just free-form gaming, where the DM just makes it all up on the fly, coming up with encounters as the whim hits him. It ends up being the DM telling a story. I never liked it much, either doing it or playing in a game like that.
Quote from: RPGPunditWizards seems to grasp the concept of small affordable packages really well with the miniatures, why doesn't it get that it could make an RPG line the same way?
The web content is free - complete adventures and more in PDF format.
The dungeon tiles line is $10 for six sheets of sturdy, punch-out halls, rooms, and other features.
RPG books are tricky, because each individual player or DM needs only a narrow slice of material. The rest is either dross, or (if it is really cool) it is something to try in the next campaign. Smaller books are, by definition, narrower.
IME, books that take the shotgun approach sell the best. Throw tons and tons of options out there, and see which ones stick. Different gamers want different stuff, so the more you can offer the better.
In a weird way, the $35 hardcover works a lot like a collectible miniatures game. I want a beholder miniature, and you want a large red dragon. In a CMG, we both unwittingly agree to subsidize production of each other's miniature. I accept that I might have to buy a few large red dragons in order to get that beholder, and vice versa.
Big hardcovers work the same way. You play a paladin and want cool paladin stuff. I play a rogue and want cool rogue stuff. Slicing the audience into smaller slivers isn't economically feasible (in book publishing, it's FAR better to sell 100,000 copies of one book than 10,000 copies each of 10 different books), so we each subsidize the other's purchase.
Now, that doesn't mean that WotC shouldn't make stuff below the $30 mark. There are products that fit that gap (adventures, fantastic location map packs, dungeon tiles, all the free stuff on the web site, Dragon and Dungeon magazines).
As far as how much money people have to spend, in the US most kids have PS2s, Xboxes, PCs suitable for gaming, and more. Why compete on price when other entertainment options cost even more?
Now, that doesn't mean that WotC shouldn't make a cheap intro set. The core rulebooks for 3.X D&D were written as reference manuals. They don't teach the game. The basic game (which sells for $25) is aimed at Toys 'R Us and at beginners, but I doubt that many hobby stores carry it.
The time it takes to make a PC is a wash. Sure, some people might be frustarted that it can take time. OTOH, I ran a D&D game for a 14 year old and guided him through PC creation in about 10 minutes. While some people might get bored that it takes 30 minutes to make a PC, how many players stop gaming under a simpler system because, compared to WoW or computer games, their PCs don't have any interesting features?
Quote from: SettembriniLet's stop saying: Can do, open a thread and show me what you can pull ou with just the hex description!
Ok, map 10, hex 2410.
RPGPundit
Quote from: mearlsRPG books are tricky, because each individual player or DM needs only a narrow slice of material. The rest is either dross, or (if it is really cool) it is something to try in the next campaign. Smaller books are, by definition, narrower.
This is where I think WotC's focus on streamlining and catering to the existing fan base might have missed the boat. Dungeons and Dragons should have included Fighter, Thief, Sorcerer, and Cleric, a subset of skills that are manditory for each class (rather than choices), a more limited selection of Feats acquired in a specific sequence by class, and simpler rules.
Advanced Dungeons and Dragons should have been a sperate book with everything in the existing 3rd Edition. Beginners would have gone for Dungeons and Dragons and experienced players and the existing fan base could have gone for
Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, which would have been the reference book with everything. Unlike earlier editions, however, characters created in the basic game could have been portable to the Advanced game.
Quote from: mearlsThe time it takes to make a PC is a wash. Sure, some people might be frustarted that it can take time. OTOH, I ran a D&D game for a 14 year old and guided him through PC creation in about 10 minutes. While some people might get bored that it takes 30 minutes to make a PC, how many players stop gaming under a simpler system because, compared to WoW or computer games, their PCs don't have any interesting features?
The problem isn't the time but the complexity of the choices, especially if you don't have an experienced person to guide you through it (I also learned role-playing from the books -- Blue Book Basic and Traveller). In original D&D, you rolled up a bunch of numbers (which served to make your character fairly unique) and then picked a Race and a Class. The problem with the Skills and Feats is that a player who doesn't even know what a Skill or Feat is or doesn't fully understand how the rules work isn't going ot know how to make a meaningful choice.
Quote from: John MorrowThe problem with the Skills and Feats is that a player who doesn't even know what a Skill or Feat is or doesn't fully understand how the rules work isn't going ot know how to make a meaningful choice.
That's why I think there should be a streamlined version of D&D with "typical" feats and skills hardwired into the character classes and/or a very limited number of skills and feats to choose from.
Make this "basic" D&D available on its own
and as the first section of the game much as it is now, with each succeeding chapter adding more complexity. That way, players could choose just how complex they want the game to be.
I'm not seeing the doom and gloom others are seeing.
I know a few dozen gamer. Some I know well, some only in passing. The majority work full time, have children, and still manage to game a dozen or more hours a week without difficulty.
As for pricing, the old 2nd edition D&D Complete X Handbooks were $15 then $18 around here. The hard backs books were $20-$25. Now things start at $5 more than they did 15 years ago. Its called inflation.
Kids can afford a $60 video game, then can afford a $30 book. If you want to play something like D&D you need one book, the Player's Handbook. Many of the D&D players I know have only that book, or don't have it at all and borrow one from someone who does. (Yes, $5 worth of dice is handy as well.)
Playing a RPG costs less than buying a single video game if you want it to.
Yes, the person running D&D is likely to need $95 for the 3 core books and a set of dice. That's all they need for years. For those of us that memorized the Monster Manual at age 11, we want more monsters than that. For those that have never fought orcs before, all the monsters are new enough.
$95 may sound like a ton for a kid until you think about it. How many of you had things like an Atari or Nintendo as a child that your parents bought? How many kids do you think have a console these days?
Quote from: Xavier Lang$95 may sound like a ton for a kid until you think about it. How many of you had things like an Atari or Nintendo as a child that your parents bought? How many kids do you think have a console these days?
The thing is, video and computer games are the hobby of choice for kids for this age. They're flashy and exciting. They're the thing to have. RPGs don't have that cachet. We can rationalize all we want that it isn't the price that's the problem when it comes to new people being brought into the hobby, but it is. People - kids especially - don't want to spend that much on books. They don't mind spending it on video games, but that doesn't mean that transfers over to anything else. Card games and the various plastic minis game have a cheaper buy in. That's one of the ways that some of the attention has been drawn away from video games for a segment of the gamer population.
The discussion is all for naught:
Nobody even tries to sell to new audiences. No commercials, no events, nothing.
Quote from: SettembriniThe discussion is all for naught:
Nobody even tries to sell to new audiences. No commercials, no events, nothing.
I've never seen an attempt to bring in new gamers via media or events.
I never saw one when I was a kid either. My brother got basic D&D as a gift, I don't know how the person who bought it heard about it.
Quote from: Xavier LangI've never seen an attempt to bring in new gamers via media or events.
I never saw one when I was a kid either.
I saw ads for D&D and Star Frontiers in comics I purchased at the time.
That's not what got me into the game, but there you go.
Quote from: Caesar SlaadI saw ads for D&D and Star Frontiers in comics I purchased at the time.
That's not what got me into the game, but there you go.
Is paper and pencil RPG stuff advetised in computer magazines today? I'm trying to remember.
I was already a gamer at the time, but I discovered RIFTS and other Palladium games by their ads in Comic Books. Now, I haven't been a mainstream comic book reader in nearly a decade now, but I'm sure there has to be some room for advertisements there....
Quote from: Caesar SlaadI saw ads for D&D and Star Frontiers in comics I purchased at the time.
That's not what got me into the game, but there you go.
What made me want D&D, believe it or not, was a profile of Gygax in People Magazine that described the game and made it sound interesting.
Ages and ages ago, Strategy & Tactics, the wargaming magazine, used to be advertised in one of the popular science fiction magazines (Analog? Amazing Stories?). Not that it's directly relevant to RPGs but I think it was an illustration of Jim Dunnigan using his analysis of his audience to target advertizing to people he believed fit the profile of potential customers, in a medium that differed considerably from his actual product.