QuoteAt that time, I knew the rules and monster stats so well I could run it from memory.

This I totally believe, and I can also run a merchant free trader game w/o prep witrh a traveller sector in my hand.

But for D&D this would mean encounter, after encounter after encounter, wtihout any sense and no dungeons, traps, puzzles or whatsoever, no story. Maybe I just don't grok it. Explain!

Let's stop saying: Can do, open a thread and show me what you can pull ou with just the hex description!

Could be interesting, kind of an Iron DM contest type situation, I know that I'd read it at least, might try my hand as well were the hex info made available.

Quote from: SettembriniBut for D&D this would mean encounter, after encounter after encounter, wtihout any sense and no dungeons, traps, puzzles or whatsoever, no story. Maybe I just don't grok it. Explain!

It's basically just free-form gaming, where the DM just makes it all up on the fly, coming up with encounters as the whim hits him. It ends up being the DM telling a story. I never liked it much, either doing it or playing in a game like that.

Quote from: RPGPunditWizards seems to grasp the concept of small affordable packages really well with the miniatures, why doesn't it get that it could make an RPG line the same way?

The web content is free - complete adventures and more in PDF format.

The dungeon tiles line is $10 for six sheets of sturdy, punch-out halls, rooms, and other features.

RPG books are tricky, because each individual player or DM needs only a narrow slice of material. The rest is either dross, or (if it is really cool) it is something to try in the next campaign. Smaller books are, by definition, narrower.

IME, books that take the shotgun approach sell the best. Throw tons and tons of options out there, and see which ones stick. Different gamers want different stuff, so the more you can offer the better.

In a weird way, the $35 hardcover works a lot like a collectible miniatures game. I want a beholder miniature, and you want a large red dragon. In a CMG, we both unwittingly agree to subsidize production of each other's miniature. I accept that I might have to buy a few large red dragons in order to get that beholder, and vice versa.

Big hardcovers work the same way. You play a paladin and want cool paladin stuff. I play a rogue and want cool rogue stuff. Slicing the audience into smaller slivers isn't economically feasible (in book publishing, it's FAR better to sell 100,000 copies of one book than 10,000 copies each of 10 different books), so we each subsidize the other's purchase.

Now, that doesn't mean that WotC shouldn't make stuff below the $30 mark. There are products that fit that gap (adventures, fantastic location map packs, dungeon tiles, all the free stuff on the web site, Dragon and Dungeon magazines).

As far as how much money people have to spend, in the US most kids have PS2s, Xboxes, PCs suitable for gaming, and more. Why compete on price when other entertainment options cost even more?

Now, that doesn't mean that WotC shouldn't make a cheap intro set. The core rulebooks for 3.X D&D were written as reference manuals. They don't teach the game. The basic game (which sells for $25) is aimed at Toys 'R Us and at beginners, but I doubt that many hobby stores carry it.

The time it takes to make a PC is a wash. Sure, some people might be frustarted that it can take time. OTOH, I ran a D&D game for a 14 year old and guided him through PC creation in about 10 minutes. While some people might get bored that it takes 30 minutes to make a PC, how many players stop gaming under a simpler system because, compared to WoW or computer games, their PCs don't have any interesting features?

Quote from: SettembriniLet's stop saying: Can do, open a thread and show me what you can pull ou with just the hex description!

Ok, map 10, hex 2410.

RPGPundit

Quote from: mearlsRPG books are tricky, because each individual player or DM needs only a narrow slice of material. The rest is either dross, or (if it is really cool) it is something to try in the next campaign. Smaller books are, by definition, narrower.

This is where I think WotC's focus on streamlining and catering to the existing fan base might have missed the boat.  Dungeons and Dragons should have included Fighter, Thief, Sorcerer, and Cleric, a subset of skills that are manditory for each class (rather than choices), a more limited selection of Feats acquired in a specific sequence by class, and simpler rules.  Advanced Dungeons and Dragons should have been a sperate book with everything in the existing 3rd Edition.  Beginners would have gone for Dungeons and Dragons and experienced players and the existing fan base could have gone for Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, which would have been the reference book with everything.  Unlike earlier editions, however, characters created in the basic game could have been portable to the Advanced game.

Quote from: mearlsThe time it takes to make a PC is a wash. Sure, some people might be frustarted that it can take time. OTOH, I ran a D&D game for a 14 year old and guided him through PC creation in about 10 minutes. While some people might get bored that it takes 30 minutes to make a PC, how many players stop gaming under a simpler system because, compared to WoW or computer games, their PCs don't have any interesting features?

The problem isn't the time but the complexity of the choices, especially if you don't have an experienced person to guide you through it (I also learned role-playing from the books -- Blue Book Basic and Traveller).  In original D&D, you rolled up a bunch of numbers (which served to make your character fairly unique) and then picked a Race and a Class.  The problem with the Skills and Feats is that a player who doesn't even know what a Skill or Feat is or doesn't fully understand how the rules work isn't going ot know how to make a meaningful choice.

Quote from: John MorrowThe problem with the Skills and Feats is that a player who doesn't even know what a Skill or Feat is or doesn't fully understand how the rules work isn't going ot know how to make a meaningful choice.

That's why I think there should be a streamlined version of D&D with "typical" feats and skills hardwired into the character classes and/or a very limited number of skills and feats to choose from.

Make this "basic" D&D available on its own and as the first section of the game much as it is now, with each succeeding chapter adding more complexity. That way, players could choose just how complex they want the game to be.

I'm not seeing the doom and gloom others are seeing.

I know a few dozen gamer.  Some I know well, some only in passing.  The majority work full time, have children, and still manage to game a dozen or more hours a week without difficulty.  

As for pricing, the old 2nd edition D&D Complete X Handbooks were $15 then $18 around here.  The hard backs books were $20-$25.  Now things start at $5 more than they did 15 years ago.  Its called inflation.  

Kids can afford a $60 video game, then can afford a $30 book.  If you want to play something like D&D you need one book, the Player's Handbook.  Many of the D&D players I know have only that book, or don't have it at all and borrow one from someone who does.  (Yes, $5 worth of dice is handy as well.)

Playing a RPG costs less than buying a single video game if you want it to.
Yes, the person running D&D is likely to need $95 for the 3 core books and a set of dice.  That's all they need for years.  For those of us that memorized the Monster Manual at age 11, we want more monsters than that.  For those that have never fought orcs before, all the monsters are new enough.

$95 may sound like a ton for a kid until you think about it.  How many of you had things like an Atari or Nintendo as a child that your parents bought?  How many kids do you think have a console these days?

Quote from: Xavier Lang$95 may sound like a ton for a kid until you think about it.  How many of you had things like an Atari or Nintendo as a child that your parents bought?  How many kids do you think have a console these days?

The thing is, video and computer games are the hobby of choice for kids for this age. They're flashy and exciting. They're the thing to have. RPGs don't have that cachet. We can rationalize all we want that it isn't the price that's the problem when it comes to new people being brought into the hobby, but it is. People - kids especially - don't want to spend that much on books. They don't mind spending it on video games, but that doesn't mean that transfers over to anything else. Card games and the various plastic minis game have a cheaper buy in. That's one of the ways that some of the attention has been drawn away from video games for a segment of the gamer population.

The discussion is all for naught:
Nobody even tries to sell to new audiences. No commercials, no events, nothing.

Quote from: SettembriniThe discussion is all for naught:
Nobody even tries to sell to new audiences. No commercials, no events, nothing.

I've never seen an attempt to bring in new gamers via media or events.  
I never saw one when I was a kid either.  My brother got basic D&D as a gift, I don't know how the person who bought it heard about it.

Quote from: Xavier LangI've never seen an attempt to bring in new gamers via media or events.  
I never saw one when I was a kid either.

I saw ads for D&D and Star Frontiers in comics I purchased at the time.

That's not what got me into the game, but there you go.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI saw ads for D&D and Star Frontiers in comics I purchased at the time.

That's not what got me into the game, but there you go.

Is paper and pencil RPG stuff advetised in computer magazines today?  I'm trying to remember.

I was already a gamer at the time, but I discovered RIFTS and other Palladium games by their ads in Comic Books. Now, I haven't been a mainstream comic book reader in nearly a decade now, but I'm sure there has to be some room for advertisements there....