QuoteBut I do think there's also a "rules-heavy" threshold as well, and a sweet spot somewhere in the middle, a sweet spot that the TSR games were much closer to than the WotC one.

This is the real problem. You have to teach D&D to people. It's basically impossible to start RPGing with the three core books.

Quote from: SettembriniThis is the real problem. You have to teach D&D to people. It's basically impossible to start RPGing with the three core books.

I think it probably is, yeah, and it's a bit of a downer to gamers like me, because I'm one of many who _did_ learn entirely from reading TSR rules (original yellow-box Marvel Superheroes, to be precise, which was targeted specifically at newcomer/crossover customers and in my case struck that target perfectly).

Word-of-mouth and personal teaching have always been the backbone of the hobby's growth, but it wasn't always alone.

Quote from: blakkieI suspect that's why the smaller packages of info, or however it was worded, made it into that rumour about D&D 4e.  It was understood/hoped/believed that WotC was picking up on that.

"smaller packages of info" have a very troubling connotation to them; it implies that they would be selling the rules chapter-by-chapter; or that you'd have to pay for the "spell level 4 booster packs" where certain spells would be "ultra rare" or some kind of utter shit like that.

Whereas in reality, what they need to do is make a $20 D&D book that you can play to AT LEAST level 10 (ideally the full level 20) and where you can make a character and start playing in under 10 minutes.

RPGPundit

Clearly, Pundit, the youth of the world needs FtA!
Go for it!

Quote from: ColonelHardissonPtolus stands alone, almost a nonesuch, with only the World's Largest Dungeon to compare with it. Those are niche products, tailored to people with more disposable income or the foresight to preorder so it isn't such a big bite. They shouldn't be held as examples of what's wrong with the long-term economic feasibility of RPGs.  

It is the vanguard of an ever-escalating trend. The Worlds Largest Dungeon/City and Ptolus are only the LATEST step.  It wasn't that long ago that people were saying a $50 game book was unthinkable; but the collectors "demanded" it.
Now, apparently, they've demanded the $100 book.
Eventually, mark my words, they'll demand the $300 book.  All four fanboy collectors that are left by then, of course. And what a book it will be: full colour, printed on vellum, each page will emanate the scent of fucking rose petals... an orgiastic feast for the senses in celebration of the industry flushing itself down the fucking toilet in an act of voluntary suicide.

QuoteIt's the high entry-level cost of RPGs, coupled with the often-by-design open-endedness of the game, that is the problem. Complexity is a problem if there are no less-complex alternatives. There are very, very few entry-level, self-contained, inexpensive RPGs out there.

In essence, I agree that the RPG industry, such as it is, is doing the same thing that the comics industry did - it focused on making products for an aging fan base to the exclusivity of bringing in new customers. It's not that the expensive stuff is causing the problem. It's that the low-end of the spectrum has been abandoned - to other hobbies like cards or minis, I presume. Why RPG companies have done this isn't entirely clear - the guys who can afford the investment (of money and time) for the big-ticket items will still be there, regardless if the companies also try to cater to the low-ticket end of the spectrum.

Exactly. RPGs were at their peak when they were making $5 fighting fantasy books, and you could get the whole D&D game for under $20.  What we have now is nothing short of willful suicide.

And I'll tell you why they're doing it: because they've fallen for that idiot's trick of believing that they have to listen to their loudest most extreme, most lobbying fans.
The drooling fanboys.  
The collectors.
The non-gamers.

And those guys are telling them that the industry wants RPGs to be about "themes" for "mature" players, that they must be catered to or they will leave, that it has to be about them, and not about the kids, because they're fundamentally selfish fucks who don't give a shit if the hobby ends up disemboweled as long as they got theirs for another year. Apres moi le fucking deluge is their motto, gang of fatbeard fucks.

RPGPundit

Keep Ptolus out of it, Pundit, for fuck's sake!
It's a fucking playable thing, unlike the mess that Wilderlands is. Ptolus you can flip open and USE.
What is Wilderlands, that you speak so highly of, else than a fatbeard nostalgia onanistic orgy of material bloat for fucking €75!?
Get real, Ptolus has n-o-t-h-i-n-g to do with it.

Ptolus is notable only because of its "conspicuous consumption", if you would. But I have no issue with it is as it is, inherently; it is the mentality that has caused it that is the problem.  Ptolus shouldn't exist, not in the format its in.

RPGPundit

Hahaha!

Considering that I'm prepping for my next Wilderlands campaign (or several) right now, that's pretty funny.

Monte Cook can produce something on that level in his wildest, wettest dreams. Maybe not even then.

QuoteConsidering that I'm prepping for my next Wilderlands campaign (or several) right now, that's pretty funny.

Cool for you, but don`t tell me it's easy to use or low-prep time.

Quote from: SettembriniCool for you, but don`t tell me it's easy to use or low-prep time.

I'll tell you just that. Prep time is the time to read the next hex description: No more, no less.

Quote from: RPGPunditPtolus is notable only because of its "conspicuous consumption", if you would. But I have no issue with it is as it is, inherently; it is the mentality that has caused it that is the problem.  Ptolus shouldn't exist, not in the format its in.

RPGPundit

Bollocks, as you yourself say elsewhere, the problem isn't the high end books - it's the lack of low end books.

Plus Ptolus by all accounts is definitely designed for play.  As for that matter is The World's Largest Dungeon.  These are not books for readers.

So, I agree that we need more Palladium style easy entry books, definitely, but the existence of books like Ptolus and TWLD is not the problem - the cash rich time poor segment of the adult gamer market needs to be catered too as well and that's what those do.  The problem is not those guys being catered to, it's the new guys not being catered to.

Quote from: SettembriniWhat is Wilderlands, that you speak so highly of, else than a fatbeard nostalgia onanistic orgy of material bloat for fucking €75!?

Heh. I have a friend who started with 3e who (to quip a saying from Kanegrudar) loves Wilderlands like a fat kid loves Little Debbies. Its play style suits her.

That said, I agree with the general point that Ptolus is a highly functional game product.

Quote from: SettembriniWhat is Wilderlands, that you speak so highly of, else than a fatbeard nostalgia onanistic orgy of material bloat for fucking €75!?

This, in a nutshell, captures the charm of this site and why I have taken to posting here.

However, I actually have no idea what Wilderlands is.  Can anyone fill me in?

Quote from: RPGPundit"smaller packages of info" have a very troubling connotation to them; it implies that they would be selling the rules chapter-by-chapter;

$10 to $20 a month for a lifetime of gaming? Unlikely to burn through more than 3 or 4 levels a month.

Seriously though, it could have been refering to any number of serialization forms.  Especially considering we were apparently at the end of a Telephone Game line.

QuoteWhereas in reality, what they need to do is make a $20 D&D book that you can play to AT LEAST level 10 (ideally the full level 20) and where you can make a character and start playing in under 10 minutes.

I'm curious what you think they'd need to rip to get it down to that?  Maybe Cleric/Mage/Fighter/Rogue? Drop halfling or gnomes?  Super trimmed back spell list?  Or better yet a trimmer renovated magic system.

Indeed there is that old marketing addage of being able to sell anything if the price is $19.95 or less. Although perhaps with inflation that's boosted a little bit?

Speaking of which I do seem to recall that in the latish 80's I paid something like $20 CDN for my 1e AD&D PH book. Or maybe that was the DMG. They're both buried in boxes somewhere, can anyone confirm that?

Quote from: BalbinusHowever, I actually have no idea what Wilderlands is.  Can anyone fill me in?

Wilderlands is a way old setting released as a third party product by Judges Guild back in the early days of D&D. It recently has seen a reprint under 3.5e/d20 rules by Necromancer Games, and I am now to understand that Troll Lords have received an offer to release it for Castles & Crusades.

Wilderlands is almost a setting designed in dungeon format. That is, the setting is hex mapped, and encounters and situations are scattered across the map, keyed to hexes.

Wilderlands has a small but vocal and loving fan base. They seem to enjoy the play style of just running with a few dropped hints and a bit of serendipity to drag PCs across the various encounter hexes of the setting.

I appreciated it mainly in that it is one of a few settings that actually supports psionics.