Over on ENworld, a guy has just declared that he's quitting gaming because gaming has basically gotten to the point where unless you're independantly wealthy, unemployed, or a university student, AND single, you don't have the time to prep and run RPGs the way they are played today, and how this is a far cry from the way it used to be in the old days, when anyone (even a kid) could GM relatively easily (if not well), and it took little time to set up or run a game.

Of course, to me this is the catch-22 of the gaming industry's current "spiral of doom".  It has chosen to make monstrosities like Ptolus because guys in their mid-20s with high-level disposable income seem a bit more appealing profit-wise than little kids; so they make these big heavy hardbound glossy beautiful books filled with material that requires a serious level of time, dedication, and in other words drooling fanboyism.  It has done this in pursuit of the immediate profit of selling a $90 book, instead of the slow investment of hooking a 12 or 13 year old kid on RPGs.

But that 25-year old rabid fanboy collector will very quickly become the 30 year old who is working 50 hour weeks and has two kids, and really can't (nor wants to) dedicate 15 hours a week to preparing, reading, and running his fancy games. So he quits.

Pretty soon, you've got an ever-diminishing group of geezers dropping from the hobby like flies, and you've got fuck all to replace them with, all because you thought you had to appeal to the drooling fanbase instead of trying to keep RPGs simple, keep them fun, and fast, and cheap for kids to buy.

RPGPundit

Not that I don't think that products being wildly overproduced for the sake of habitual collectors isn't a problem, but the dude in this thread still needs to realize that there are choices, even now.

Once choice are the many simple RPGs that are in print as we speak. Two examples would be Fudge and Castle & Crusades, both of which are affordable and lean toward the very simple in terms of both rules and presentation.

Another choice is older games. I picked-up an old copy of Gamma World 2nd edition last week that still came complete with the crayon in the box for around $8.00. All it took me was a couple hours reading and I'm now confident that I can run a quick, low-maintainence game of post apocalyptic psychic plant men fighting robots at the drop of a hat! In fact, I plan to soon. Add to this Toon, Marvel Super Heroes, "red box" D&D and others and you have a ton of simple, managable, FUN games and can be had for less the $10.00.

I'm not a PDF kind of guy, but there are lots of free PDF games out there. Finding a good one in all the mess can be tricky, but once you have, you've got yourself a usable RPG for free.

There are choices. If there weren't, I wouldn't be gaming at all now. Mr. Enworld seems inclined to just be somewhat of a quitter.

You know, without invoking a Blood War for mentioning their name, Palladium has long had a strategy of keeping their printed book prices lower than the rest of the industry.  Yeah, they're black & white, but they've got solid bindings, and they're cheap enough where they're even in a kid's price range (pdf is a whole other story, I'll just leave off there).

I saw this in practice at Gen Con.  We had a lot of older gamers stop by the Palladium booth while I was there, but you also saw a lot of kids who looked to be between the ages of 16-20 picking up 2 or 3 books for ~$10-20 each.  It's nice to keep your games affordable for that crowd, and for the older folks as well who have 3 kids, a mortgage, a car payment, and don't want to have to pay $50-100 for the "new hotness".  Admittedly, there are some folks who want full color plates and all the fixins and whatnot, and if they provide enough demand to keep those products coming, good for them.  As for me, as I get older, my daughter continues to grow and need new everythings, my new house payment needs to be met, the dog needs his shots, and with every other incidental cost that being a good member of Middle America entails, those color plates and bells and whistles begin to look awfully superfluous, and cheap black-and-white illustrated games, pdf, and buying secondhand at Noble Knight look awfully good.

EDIT:  And yeah, I don't know the guy in the ENWorld thread, but it seems like he gave up the ghost kinda easy.  There are a lot of product he may have found much easier to GM for.

He might be suffering from the effects of an overly successful marketing campaign?

He doesn't need Ptolus, or even any other $100 worth of supplement books or a bazillion hours to prep. I suspect his needs would be filled by a game, or at least game-style, with a much lower prep time and that gets him to the table at $60 for two full sets of rules to split among 4 or 5 people, less than one admission and popcorn per person for months of evenings.  That's with the nice to have two copies of the rules instead of the actual required one set. Well that exists today in a number of forms. It existed yesterday, and chances are extremely high it'll exist tomorrow.

There are a ton of easier games to prep than current DnD, including some earlier versions of DnD.

I don't have that much sympathy, a while back I found Runequest 2e was taking too much prep time for me.  I played something else.  DnD is a fine game and all, but there are other fine games and if DnD is not working for you there are other games that might.

It's like stopping playing computer games because you got stuck in the jumping puzzles in Half-Life.  Play something else.

Ptolus actually SAVES you time. And which hobby isn't encompassing? Sorry, an adult who is not able to read 600 pages to have gaming material for two years w/o any further prep, I cannot take seriously.

QuoteThere are a ton of easier games to prep than current DnD, including some earlier versions of DnD.

Amen to that. When I was introducing the current crop of virgin-newbie-gamers a year or so ago, I naturally started them on D&D (sense of tradition ... plus, it's still a great place to start) but we used Mentzer D&D without any of the optional rules in play.

It was a higher-level run, though: I6: Ravenloft adapted to those rules, with the PCs around 8th level. Character creation, for total newbies, using a single shared copy of the rules, including fully equipping the characters, assembling spell-books and generating their existing magic items (including details like how many charges left, etc), took about 45 minutes for a party of five such 8th-level PCs. Total, from blank sheet to done. After a potty break, we were heading into the mists of Barovia, just like that.

My DM-side prep was similarly breezy, and the resulting gameplay had a grand mix of satisfying crunch and rockin-out atmosphere and roleplay.

QuoteI don't have that much sympathy, a while back I found Runequest 2e was taking too much prep time for me.  I played something else.

Amen to that, though I do agree with Pundit on the industry catering trends (on the other hand, he's preaching to the choir)

Well, D&D is more prep intensive nowadays, but heck just how many games have been desigend exactly to counter this trend? Man, they fill bookshelves with generic, rules-light-crapulencia-generica for the lazy GMs out there. There are even Games with no prep at all...

Quote from: S. John RossAmen to that, though I do agree with Pundit on the industry catering trends (on the other hand, he's preaching to the choir)

I printed out Pulp Egypt last night.  I have no idea where that goes in trends, but that does a ton of prep for me and helps me run a game.  I like that, I am unapolagetically lazy.

Quote from: BalbinusI printed out Pulp Egypt last night.  I have no idea where that goes in trends, but that does a ton of prep for me and helps me run a game.  I like that, I am unapolagetically lazy.

Pulp Egypt is a very fine thing

Pulp Egypt also exists outside the industry (like my own work) and thus is blissfully immune to industry trends, pro or con.

When the industry dies, I will dance on its fucking grave.

Quote from: S. John RossWhen the industry dies, I will dance on its fucking grave.

Even better, write a game about anime adventures exploring said Grave.

Quote from: SettembriniWell, D&D is more prep intensive nowadays, but heck just how many games have been desigend exactly to counter this trend? Man, they fill bookshelves with generic, rules-light-crapulencia-generica for the lazy GMs out there. There are even Games with no prep at all...

We're not all lazy, some people just like the rules lite approach better. Others have overwhelming RL commitments, so its rules lite or nothing. I fall into both categories.

Quote from: SettembriniWell, D&D is more prep intensive nowadays, but heck just how many games have been desigend exactly to counter this trend? Man, they fill bookshelves with generic, rules-light-crapulencia-generica for the lazy GMs out there. There are even Games with no prep at all...

You remember that game you asked about, Burning Empires? Crunchie rules and effectively zippo pre-game prep. EDIT Ouside of actually reading the rules that is, so that does create a one-time prep-time requirement that is higher than say the Squirrel Attack! game mentioned below.  To boot it almost fits under that totally arbitrary number I gave of $60 for 2 complete sets of rules. As in all the rules you'll need to, or even can buy. Unfortunately it only makes it if you count having the PDF + book for $45 (I'm not sure if that was a pre-order only deal).  Two sets of hardcopy rules will set you back about the same as a DMG+PHB+MM, although you can sort of do a two sets of D&D rules on the budget if you have the means to use or print the D20 SRD.

And I'm only using that as an example. Because I don't want to step too hard on the board Guidelines, and because there are other very viable options out there too.  This isn't about knocking on D&D. You can twist D&D into a playstyle that reduces prep time too. It just tends to not support it as well natively as some other systems.

Instead it is about this guy not sorting out his needs from wants, and then lumping all of gaming in with what he has in his head because he's not looking.  And perhaps the alternative options for him are failing to reach this particular guy with whatever marketing effort they have.

To be honest, we (Linda and I) saw the trends folks in this thread were talking about. We made Squirrel Attack! and Supers Inc. as a counter to it. SA! is 60 pages, a fantasy game about playing squirrels, pregenned characters, full adventure and full ruleset for $12.99. On top of that, it has a color interior. So, some companies do see the trends and are trying to do something about it. I honestly do wish more companies would see the trend as it is a viable market. SA!, in one year, has become our best seller out of 15 titles.

Now, I do not know if I agree that it spells the end of the industry (I personally believe such marketing is self correcting) but it will be painful when companies realize the mistake (i.e. some companies will shut down).

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltTo be honest, we (Linda and I) saw the trends folks in this thread were talking about. We made Squirrel Attack! and Supers Inc. as a counter to it. SA! is 60 pages, a fantasy game about playing squirrels, pregenned characters, full adventure and full ruleset for $12.99. On top of that, it has a color interior. So, some companies do see the trends and are trying to do something about it. I honestly do wish more companies would see the trend as it is a viable market. SA!, in one year, has become our best seller out of 15 titles.

Now, I do not know if I agree that it spells the end of the industry (I personally believe such marketing is self correcting) but it will be painful when companies realize the mistake (i.e. some companies will shut down).

Bill

Huh.  I always thought RI and Shades of Earth were #1-#2 for you guys.  Live and learn!