The Evolution of the D&D Fighter

mhensley · June 27, 2008, 02:27:27 PM

Over the course of the last week or so, I worked up a little simulator that pitted a Human Fighter from each edition of D&D versus a Goblin from the same edition. At least 1000 trials were run for each Fighter and this is the data I got. It shows the average number of Goblins that the Fighter killed before dying. Make of it what you will.

And yes, the 4e Fighter was fighting Goblin Minions. That seemed the fairest comparison to earlier edition Goblins who also usually went down with one hit.

beeber · June 27, 2008, 02:34:08 PM

interesting data.

i started with moldvay B/E, then ad&d1; never played od&d. what's the cause of the jump between those editions?

arminius · June 27, 2008, 02:35:13 PM

Awesome graphic. I assume you just based it on standing toe-to-toe and hacking away? Did the fighter's wounds carry over from one fight to the next?

arminius · June 27, 2008, 02:36:07 PM

Oh, yeah--I assume 1st level fighter. How did you determine HP, damage bonus, armor, weapons?

mhensley · June 27, 2008, 02:37:34 PM

Quote from: beeber;220201interesting data.

i started with moldvay B/E, then ad&d1; never played od&d. what's the cause of the jump between those editions?

1st level Fighter. The exact details of each one are on my site. The BD&D Fighter is better due to the much more abundant stat modifiers, a d8 hit die, and getting 1d8 damage from the long sword instead of just 1d6.

Jeffrey Straszheim · June 27, 2008, 02:39:09 PM

It would have at least been interesting to see a non-minion Goblin, as the minion is supposed to be equal to 1/4 a normal specimen. If that is true, then the 4th ed. fighter is actually weaker than the 3.5 ed.

mhensley · June 27, 2008, 02:41:04 PM

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;220203Awesome graphic. I assume you just based it on standing toe-to-toe and hacking away? Did the fighter's wounds carry over from one fight to the next?

Yeah, I set it up so it was a string of one on one fights like in a hallway filled with infinite goblins. The fighter can only hit one a round. When a goblin is killed, the one behind him takes his place. And yes, the fighter's wounds carried over.

The graph was made on this very cool site-

http://nces.ed.gov/nceskids/createagraph/default.aspx

mhensley · June 27, 2008, 02:43:47 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Straszheim;220208It would have at least been interesting to see a non-minion Goblin, as the minion is supposed to be equal to 1/4 a normal specimen. If that is true, then the 4th ed. fighter is actually weaker than the 3.5 ed.

True, I ran some earlier numbers just using a spread sheet where the 4e fighter fought Goblin Blackblades and he could only take about 4 of those before dying.

Engine · June 27, 2008, 02:44:52 PM

Quote from: mhensley;220197And yes, the 4e Fighter was fighting Goblin Minions. That seemed the fairest comparison....

Upon reading the more detailed information available on your site, I'm very curious what the results would be if you chose a monster which did not automatically die on every hit. I understand the reasons you've given, but it is worth consideration nevertheless.

Actually, there are a large number of uncertain variables in there, enough so that a pure reading of the graph tells you very little, but it's very interesting if you've read the full background. Great idea.

[edit: Too much time spent reading, and got beaten to the punch. Ah, well.]

mhensley · June 27, 2008, 02:45:49 PM

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;220204Oh, yeah--I assume 1st level fighter. How did you determine HP, damage bonus, armor, weapons?

Stats were rolled for most editions using the standard method of the time. 3e and 4e used their standard point buys. Armor was the best that average starting money could afford. Weapon in each case was long sword and shield.

mhensley · June 27, 2008, 02:48:20 PM

Quote from: Engine;220213Upon reading the more detailed information available on your site, I'm very curious what the results would be if you chose a monster which did not automatically die on every hit. I understand the reasons you've given, but it is worth consideration nevertheless.

I originally used non-minions for the 4e fights, but after really getting into the numbers I saw that usually the earlier edition goblins were dying from one shot so it only seemed fair to switch to the minions.

Abyssal Maw · June 27, 2008, 02:50:06 PM

Quote from: mhensley;220197It shows the average number of Goblins that the Fighter killed before dying. Make of it what you will.

And yes, the 4e Fighter was fighting Goblin Minions. That seemed the fairest comparison to earlier edition Goblins who also usually went down with one hit.

Goblin minions are the wrong benchmark. The actual benchmark is a "1st level goblin". However, 4 goblin minions = a single 1st level creature. This puts D&D4 right between AD&D1 and AD&D2!

sweet!

mhensley · June 27, 2008, 02:57:25 PM

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;220217Goblin minions are the wrong benchmark. The actual benchmark is a "1st level goblin". However, 4 goblin minions = a single 1st level creature. This puts D&D4 right between AD&D1 and AD&D2!

sweet!

I think it's a proper comparison. For example, the 3e Goblin only gets 1d8+1 hitpoints and the normal 1st level 3e Fighter will do 1d8+3 damage a swing usually killing him in one shot. Likewise, the 3e Goblin is a CR 1/3 creature so 3 of them only equals a single 1st level creature. Sounds like a minion to me.

Engine · June 27, 2008, 02:58:55 PM

Everyone's going to see this as support of whatever their own pet theory is, but could an argument be made for other mock combats along these lines, using different classes and monsters?

I'm a little troubled by the rolling for ability scores, unless you re-rolled ability scores for each run. I'll keep thinking, I'm sure, of little things that trouble me, in case anyone has the wherewithal to try something like this again. Out of curiousity, how long did this take you?

mhensley · June 27, 2008, 03:17:43 PM

Quote from: Engine;220219Everyone's going to see this as support of whatever their own pet theory is, but could an argument be made for other mock combats along these lines, using different classes and monsters?

Other classes would be more difficult to program due their special abilities and/or spells. The 4e Fighter was trouble enough.

Quote from: Engine;220219I'm a little troubled by the rolling for ability scores, unless you re-rolled ability scores for each run. I'll keep thinking, I'm sure, of little things that trouble me, in case anyone has the wherewithal to try something like this again. Out of curiousity, how long did this take you?

The ability scores for OD&D to AD&D2 were all rerolled for each run. Plus no Fighter could have lower than a 9 for Strength. The stats didn't mean that much for OD&D and AD&D anyway due to the very high scores you needed to get any bonus. Oh, and I actually had the AD&D Fighters roll for percentile Strength as well.

This all took me probably an hour or two a day for about ten days. It took me longer to research the various editions than it did to write the code.