Over the course of the last week or so, I worked up a little simulator that pitted a Human Fighter from each edition of D&D versus a Goblin from the same edition. At least 1000 trials were run for each Fighter and this is the data I got. It shows the average number of Goblins that the Fighter killed before dying. Make of it what you will.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vg9wHEdFjuc/TWUtJXokOoI/AAAAAAAAAEo/PqUTvpJq2nk/s1600/graph.png)
And yes, the 4e Fighter was fighting Goblin Minions. That seemed the fairest comparison to earlier edition Goblins who also usually went down with one hit.
interesting data.
i started with moldvay B/E, then ad&d1; never played od&d. what's the cause of the jump between those editions?
Awesome graphic. I assume you just based it on standing toe-to-toe and hacking away? Did the fighter's wounds carry over from one fight to the next?
Oh, yeah--I assume 1st level fighter. How did you determine HP, damage bonus, armor, weapons?
Quote from: beeber;220201interesting data.
i started with moldvay B/E, then ad&d1; never played od&d. what's the cause of the jump between those editions?
1st level Fighter. The exact details of each one are on my site. The BD&D Fighter is better due to the much more abundant stat modifiers, a d8 hit die, and getting 1d8 damage from the long sword instead of just 1d6.
It would have at least been interesting to see a non-minion Goblin, as the minion is supposed to be equal to 1/4 a normal specimen. If that is true, then the 4th ed. fighter is actually weaker than the 3.5 ed.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;220203Awesome graphic. I assume you just based it on standing toe-to-toe and hacking away? Did the fighter's wounds carry over from one fight to the next?
Yeah, I set it up so it was a string of one on one fights like in a hallway filled with infinite goblins. The fighter can only hit one a round. When a goblin is killed, the one behind him takes his place. And yes, the fighter's wounds carried over.
The graph was made on this very cool site-
http://nces.ed.gov/nceskids/createagraph/default.aspx
Quote from: Jeffrey Straszheim;220208It would have at least been interesting to see a non-minion Goblin, as the minion is supposed to be equal to 1/4 a normal specimen. If that is true, then the 4th ed. fighter is actually weaker than the 3.5 ed.
True, I ran some earlier numbers just using a spread sheet where the 4e fighter fought Goblin Blackblades and he could only take about 4 of those before dying.
Quote from: mhensley;220197And yes, the 4e Fighter was fighting Goblin Minions. That seemed the fairest comparison....
Upon reading the more detailed information available on your site, I'm very curious what the results would be if you chose a monster which did
not automatically die on every hit. I understand the reasons you've given, but it is worth consideration nevertheless.
Actually, there are a large number of uncertain variables in there, enough so that a pure reading of the graph tells you very little, but it's very interesting if you've read the full background. Great idea.
[edit: Too much time spent reading, and got beaten to the punch. Ah, well.]
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;220204Oh, yeah--I assume 1st level fighter. How did you determine HP, damage bonus, armor, weapons?
Stats were rolled for most editions using the standard method of the time. 3e and 4e used their standard point buys. Armor was the best that average starting money could afford. Weapon in each case was long sword and shield.
Quote from: Engine;220213Upon reading the more detailed information available on your site, I'm very curious what the results would be if you chose a monster which did not automatically die on every hit. I understand the reasons you've given, but it is worth consideration nevertheless.
I originally used non-minions for the 4e fights, but after really getting into the numbers I saw that usually the earlier edition goblins were dying from one shot so it only seemed fair to switch to the minions.
Quote from: mhensley;220197It shows the average number of Goblins that the Fighter killed before dying. Make of it what you will.
And yes, the 4e Fighter was fighting Goblin Minions. That seemed the fairest comparison to earlier edition Goblins who also usually went down with one hit.
Goblin minions are the wrong benchmark. The actual benchmark is a "1st level goblin". However, 4 goblin minions = a single 1st level creature. This puts D&D4 right between AD&D1 and AD&D2!
sweet!
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;220217Goblin minions are the wrong benchmark. The actual benchmark is a "1st level goblin". However, 4 goblin minions = a single 1st level creature. This puts D&D4 right between AD&D1 and AD&D2!
sweet!
I think it's a proper comparison. For example, the 3e Goblin only gets 1d8+1 hitpoints and the normal 1st level 3e Fighter will do 1d8+3 damage a swing usually killing him in one shot. Likewise, the 3e Goblin is a CR 1/3 creature so 3 of them only equals a single 1st level creature. Sounds like a minion to me.
Everyone's going to see this as support of whatever their own pet theory is, but could an argument be made for other mock combats along these lines, using different classes and monsters?
I'm a little troubled by the rolling for ability scores, unless you re-rolled ability scores for each run. I'll keep thinking, I'm sure, of little things that trouble me, in case anyone has the wherewithal to try something like this again. Out of curiousity, how long did this take you?
Quote from: Engine;220219Everyone's going to see this as support of whatever their own pet theory is, but could an argument be made for other mock combats along these lines, using different classes and monsters?
Other classes would be more difficult to program due their special abilities and/or spells. The 4e Fighter was trouble enough.
Quote from: Engine;220219I'm a little troubled by the rolling for ability scores, unless you re-rolled ability scores for each run. I'll keep thinking, I'm sure, of little things that trouble me, in case anyone has the wherewithal to try something like this again. Out of curiousity, how long did this take you?
The ability scores for OD&D to AD&D2 were all rerolled for each run. Plus no Fighter could have lower than a 9 for Strength. The stats didn't mean that much for OD&D and AD&D anyway due to the very high scores you needed to get any bonus. Oh, and I actually had the AD&D Fighters roll for percentile Strength as well. :)
This all took me probably an hour or two a day for about ten days. It took me longer to research the various editions than it did to write the code.
For 4e, instead of all minions or all 1st-level goblins, is there perhaps a standard ratio of one to the other that could be used? So e.g. if the book recommends one 1st-level goblin per four minions, then after each goblin dies, there'd be a 20% chance that the next one would be a 1st-level gobbo.
Thanks for that graph and that work.
I think that your choice of a single minion one at a time is off however. I'll just note that minions are meant to be used in groups. Either a couplefew minions per run or something a bit stronger.
Consider explaining the jump in the graph from 3e to 4e, I would hope that you agree that the major contributing factor is the use of single minions.
I do think that this highlights that 4e is a different game. Nice work.
If you're using the standard rules for each edition the BD&D Fighter should still only get 1d6 damage for his sword. Variable damage is an optional rule in Basic. The standard rule is still all weapons do 1d6. Very interesting presentation.
Quote from: mhensley;220218I think it's a proper comparison. For example, the 3e Goblin only gets 1d8+1 hitpoints and the normal 1st level 3e Fighter will do 1d8+3 damage a swing usually killing him in one shot. Likewise, the 3e Goblin is a CR 1/3 creature so 3 of them only equals a single 1st level creature. Sounds like a minion to me.
Well, the HPs of the player characters were also scaled up. Also, much of the power of goblin minions comes from their ability to shift and flank, and so forth, which your model (I suspect) loses. I would really prefer to see the battle against a normal 1st level goblin.
I don't have the MM or DMG - do minions have a lesser chance to hit? Are there AC/Defense differences? Is a first level fighter in 4e going to see "1st level goblins" or minions?
Quote from: James J Skach;220257I don't have the MM or DMG - do minions have a lesser chance to hit? Are there AC/Defense differences? Is a first level fighter in 4e going to see "1st level goblins" or minions?
The only difference is in the durability. Minions have attack and defense bonuses appropriate to their level.
And a 1st level fighter will face both regular goblins and goblin minions.
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;220278The only difference is in the durability. Minions have attack and defense bonuses appropriate to their level.
And a 1st level fighter will face both regular goblins and goblin minions.
I just wantt o make sure I understood correctly:
A 1st level goblin, and a goblin minion will have the same attack and defense bonus, correct?
The only difference is that a 1st level goblin will have actual hit points, whereas a minion has, essentially, 1 (they will die on a single success), correct?
The reason to push for non-minion goblins is scale. Yes, usually a goblin dies in one hit in earlier editions. So too, however, did lowly 1'st level characters. If not one, then two.
The durability of the 1st level fighter is ofset by the durability of 1st level monsters, with minions providing bulk and skirmisher elements in essence. By taking a below scale minion, just because it matches up with earlier edition equivilents does not mean it is scaled appropriately for the challenge you've set.
In essense, you could get nearly the same results by porting an older edition goblin into 4th edition D&D, and could similarly skew the results by porting the 4E fighter (or his hit points, anyway) directly into an older edition challenge.
It looks good, but actually provides bad math. While your example is somewhat more reasonable than my hypothetical, the actual results are the same: Skewed statistics.
You know, I first posted my initial findings a week ago on enworld and there I had the 4e fighter fight the non-minion goblins. The 4e supporters there complained that I should have used minions as it made the 4e look weak in comparison to the 3e one. It seems that I can't win with this.
Also, if the scale here seems wrong how do you explain stuff like the game I played in a couple of days ago. We didn't have enough players show up to really play, so it ended up with just me and the dm. We ran a standup fight between 4 identical 1st level fighters and the solo black dragon. A large black dragon... and the 4 1st level fighters beat him. That wouldn't come close to happening in any previous edition. Face it, the power level in 4e is far higher than in previous editions.
Quote from: James J Skach;220283I just wantt o make sure I understood correctly:
A 1st level goblin, and a goblin minion will have the same attack and defense bonus, correct?
The only difference is that a 1st level goblin will have actual hit points, whereas a minion has, essentially, 1 (they will die on a single success), correct?
Yes, you are essentially correct. Here are the stats-
Gobbo Minion-
HP- 1
AC-16
Attack- +5 vs. AC
Damage- 4
Gobbo Blackblade
HP- 25
AC- 16
Attack- +5 vs. AC
Damage- 1d6+2
Quote from: Jeffrey Straszheim;220247Well, the HPs of the player characters were also scaled up. Also, much of the power of goblin minions comes from their ability to shift and flank, and so forth, which your model (I suspect) loses. I would really prefer to see the battle against a normal 1st level goblin.
The fighter also loses the use of most of his powers as well. Cleave doesn't work. His daily is pointless, etc.
Quote from: wulfgar;220246If you're using the standard rules for each edition the BD&D Fighter should still only get 1d6 damage for his sword. Variable damage is an optional rule in Basic. The standard rule is still all weapons do 1d6. Very interesting presentation.
True, but I've never seen anyone actually play without variable weapon damage. I certainly never did.
Quote from: dar;220244Consider explaining the jump in the graph from 3e to 4e, I would hope that you agree that the major contributing factor is the use of single minions.
Actually, the use of minions is not the main reason for the big jump in power. The biggest reasons are the huge increase in hit points and a much better chance of landing a hit in combat. The 3e fighter has an attack bonus of +5. The 4e fighter though has an attack bonus of +10 with his at will power of Sure Strike.
Can you post the graph and data with the non minion goblins. I think you just contradicted your self a bit by stating that with the non minion goblins things went round the other way...
http://grubbstreet.blogspot.com/2008/06/green-dragon.html
I guess he is saying that the system had a bit of tuning to bring dragons within grasp of 1st level while trying to preserve high level with them.
Also I've seen GM's have trouble being tough enough with the dragons and getting into trouble because of underestimating the PC's and nerfing the dragon.
Edit: nerfing untentially in many cases as well.
Sweet research. Thanks for doing this!
Quote from: mhensley;220307You know, I first posted my initial findings a week ago on enworld and there I had the 4e fighter fight the non-minion goblins. The 4e supporters there complained that I should have used minions as it made the 4e look weak in comparison to the 3e one. It seems that I can't win with this.
Hehe. I can't be held responsible for the weirdos on enworld :)
I guess you should provide *both*, and let the reader decide their relevance.
Quote from: dar;220314http://grubbstreet.blogspot.com/2008/06/green-dragon.html
Also I've seen GM's have trouble being tough enough with the dragons and getting into trouble because of underestimating the PC's and nerfing the dragon.
Edit: nerfing untentially in many cases as well.
We ran into this sort of problem in our recent game. The GM had plotted out a fight with some sort of jumping spiders. He'd done it, I guess, by the book and setup 3 of them for us to fight. However, as the fight opened, he spontaneously decided the spiders would be too tough, and had one run away so we only had to fight two.
It was a reasonable fight, as most of us used up our dailies. However, it was not truly challenging. None of us were bloodied (as I recall), and at no point was I concerned we'd lose. Three spiders would have rocked.
(I keep bugging the GM to make things more challenging. However, I fear he may single my character out in exercising this advice.)
Quote from: Spike;220291The durability of the 1st level fighter is ofset by the durability of 1st level monsters, with minions providing bulk and skirmisher elements in essence. By taking a below scale minion, just because it matches up with earlier edition equivilents does not mean it is scaled appropriately for the challenge you've set.
See, herein lies the issue. Because, IIRC, there were no "minion" goblins in earlier editions - ok, maybe kobolds, but that's a different issue.
But that's why I asked the question about frequency and expectation. If a 1st level fighter is likely to fight, when running into a pack of goblins, a bunch of minions, then using them for comparison is logical. After all, a "regular" goblin is what you faced in 1e when you ran into a group.
And the point of the exercise, or at least one of the things that was discussed early on this site about 4e and to which this speaks, was the scaling issue. Again, the question about what is the expectation of encounter/likelihood of meeting minions, comes up again.
The way I sees it, if that 1st level fighter in 4e is likely to meet minions, just like the 3e fighter was expected to meet 1/3 CR goblin, or the 1e fighter is expected to meet ..well..just goblins, then the scaling seems to be not quite linear. To be clear, that doesn't make it good or bad; people will have different preferences.
Quote from: Spike;220291In essense, you could get nearly the same results by porting an older edition goblin into 4th edition D&D, and could similarly skew the results by porting the 4E fighter (or his hit points, anyway) directly into an older edition challenge.
What about porting a 4e goblin minion to 1e; or perhaps a 4e 1st level goblin to 1e? I'm honestly asking. Is it even possible?
I don't know if you're right or not; though I have my personal read/opinion. It all depends on how the various editions' goblins match up, or fighters do. The problem I see is that it will be very difficult to find agreement on holding one side the equation or the other constant.
Quote from: James J Skach;220336What about porting a 4e goblin minion to 1e; or perhaps a 4e 1st level goblin to 1e? I'm honestly asking. Is it even possible?
Wouldn't that just be a Goblin that has less hit points than the minimum the Fighter could deal out with a successful hit? If the Fighter gets +3 to damage from Strength, then any Goblin with 4 or less hit points is the same as a minion.
Quote from: mhensley;220312Actually, the use of minions is not the main reason for the big jump in power. The biggest reasons are the huge increase in hit points and a much better chance of landing a hit in combat. The 3e fighter has an attack bonus of +5. The 4e fighter though has an attack bonus of +10 with his at will power of Sure Strike.
A fighter won't get his Strength bonus to damage on Sure Strike. Not very relevant if you're using a Minion, but extremely relevant otherwise.
-O
Quote from: Jeffrey Straszheim;220324Hehe. I can't be held responsible for the weirdos on enworld :)
I guess you should provide *both*, and let the reader decide their relevance.
Here is the original thread I posted on enworld with the numbers I got from working out the averages on a spreadsheet. The 4e fighter there fights non-minions. Note that the numbers are a bit different for everyone as I was not using the simulator program at that point which I consider to be much more accurate.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=232244
Quote from: James J Skach;220336What about porting a 4e goblin minion to 1e; or perhaps a 4e 1st level goblin to 1e? I'm honestly asking. Is it even possible?
It's entirely doable if you don't worry about their special powers which didn't figure into this anyway. The 4e goblin minion is much more dangerous than a 1e goblin due to his higher attack bonus and AC. The extra couple of hit points (on average) that the AD&D one has isn't much of a factor.
AD&D Goblin
AC- 14
HP- 1d8-1
Attack Bonus- +1
Damage- 1d6
4e Goblin Minion
AC- 16
HP- 1
Attack Bonus- +5
Damage- 4
Quote from: obryn;220365A fighter won't get his Strength bonus to damage on Sure Strike. Not very relevant if you're using a Minion, but extremely relevant otherwise.
-O
True. He used Sure Strike every round because that was the optimum attack against minions lined up like this.
I don't why everyone is getting worked up over the 4e numbers. The figure I found most troubling was the jump from 1st to 2nd edition. The weapon specialization rules introduced in UA were an abomination. Damn that cheesy, munchkin-lover Gygax. ;)
Another question about the methodolgy used- did you allow the 4e fighter to use his healing surge? Unlike any of his "ancestors" in earlier editions, he has the capability to heal himself without any potion or spell, so that would need to be taken into account.
Quote from: mhensley;220410It's entirely doable if you don't worry about their special powers which didn't figure into this anyway. The 4e goblin minion is much more dangerous than a 1e goblin due to his higher attack bonus and AC. The extra couple of hit points (on average) that the AD&D one has isn't much of a factor.
AD&D Goblin
AC- 14
HP- 1d8-1
Attack Bonus- +1
Damage- 1d6
4e Goblin Minion
AC- 16
HP- 1
Attack Bonus- +5
Damage- 4
Sp, if I understand this correctly (and trust me when I tell you that it's certainly possible I'm not!), the differences are:
- 4e goblin minion has a higher AC; the minion is harder to hit by 10%.
- 4e goblin minion has less hit points; on average, it's 3.5 hp less (1d8-1=4.5 average hp for AD&D Goblin, 1 HP for 4e minion).
- 4e goblin minion has a higher attack bonus; it has a 20% higher chance of hitting.
- 4e goblin minion, on average, will do more damage; 1d6 result in 3.5 hp average damage, versus 4 - so a difference of .5 hit points.
Is that about correct?
Given that the average damage of a long sword (1d8; therefore, 4.5) is well within the difference, I'm not sure that I'm seeing the huge gap that people are pointing out. Particularly given the offsetting issues of being harder to hit, hitting more easily, and doing a bit more damage, the comparison seems pretty good.
Now, some people liek to use the IANAL (I am not a lawyer), so I will add the caveat that IANAS; I am not a statistician; So I'll be more than grateful to have someone pull those numbers apart and show me what I'm missing.
Wow! Very nice work. Thank you VERY much!
Thanks for providing that link back to enworld.
For me it was the use of minions instead of non minion goblins. Especially single minions.
It's nice to see more of the information.
Quote from: James J Skach;220449Sp, if I understand this correctly (and trust me when I tell you that it's certainly possible I'm not!), the differences are:
- 4e goblin minion has less hit points; on average, it's 3.5 hp less (1d8-1=4.5 average hp for AD&D Goblin, 1 HP for 4e minion).
Is that about correct?
Given that the average damage of a long sword (1d8; therefore, 4.5) is well within the difference, I'm not sure that I'm seeing the huge gap that people are pointing out.
Actually, you got the hit points wrong.
The average of 1d8 is 4.5. Finding the average of 1d8-1 is trickier, since you don't subtract 1 if you roll a 1. So the possible results are: 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7. That means the average is 3.625. This means that the goblin minion has, on average, 2.625 hit point less than the average 1E goblin.
Which means that the average damage of the long sword more than exceeds the average difference in hit points.
I think the goblin minion is the perfect choice for this experiment, as the basic goblin or 1st level goblin warrior is essentially meant as a minion fighter.
Quote from: Jackalope;220556I think the goblin minion is the perfect choice for this experiment, as the basic goblin or 1st level goblin warrior is essentially meant as a minion fighter.
It's really not, though.
As I said on ENWorld, a 3e goblin is CR 1/3 - so an encounter for a party of 4 1st-level characters should have 3 of them. 1.33 characters per goblin.
A 4e goblin minion is worth 25 XP, and a standard encounter for a party of 4 1st-level characters is built off 400 XP. Therefore, you need
16 goblin minions for an equivalent level of party challenge. Or, 4 goblin minions per character.
This gives us a "goblin conversion ratio" of 5.33 4e goblin minions per 3e goblin. :)
-O
Quote from: obryn;220563It's really not, though.
As I said on ENWorld, a 3e goblin is CR 1/3 - so an encounter for a party of 4 1st-level characters should have 3 of them. 1.33 characters per goblin.
A 4e goblin minion is worth 25 XP, and a standard encounter for a party of 4 1st-level characters is built off 400 XP. Therefore, you need 16 goblin minions for an equivalent level of party challenge. Or, 4 goblin minions per character.
This gives us a "goblin conversion ratio" of 5.33 4e goblin minions per 3e goblin. :)
-O
Perhaps the reason for the difference from this perspective is because of the over-match? It could very well be that the information you're providing is yet more evidence of the change - that because the fighter is so much more overpowering in 4e, the typical goblin he would face - in this case a "minion' - is worth less from an experience perspective. Does that make sense?
It seems to me the way to compare them is in the battle manner Monsieur Hensley provides, rather than the challenge system/experience built on top of/in reaction to that comparison.
Now if you're talking about how the level/experience system works in comparison - say, how many goblins must a 1st level fighter defeat before attaining second level - this approach would make more sense to me.
IMHO, YMMV, etc.
Quote from: James J Skach;220578It seems to me the way to compare them is in the battle manner Monsieur Hensley provides, rather than the challenge system/experience built on top of/in reaction to that comparison.
Now if you're talking about how the level/experience system works in comparison - say, how many goblins must a 1st level fighter defeat before attaining second level - this approach would make more sense to me.
IMHO, YMMV, etc.
Lots of things have been rebalanced between 3e and 4e, including both characters and monsters. HPs in particular are higher at low levels, and lower at high levels. This makes any kind of 1:1 comparison difficult.
About the only constant I can settle on is a common unit between the two games that means the same thing in each game - the encounter.
Therefore, I think the only fair way to measure the relative differences between fighters from each edition is by the foes each is expected to face in a "normal" encounter.
-O
Quote from: obryn;220635Lots of things have been rebalanced between 3e and 4e, including both characters and monsters. HPs in particular are higher at low levels, and lower at high levels. This makes any kind of 1:1 comparison difficult.
About the only constant I can settle on is a common unit between the two games that means the same thing in each game - the encounter.
Therefore, I think the only fair way to measure the relative differences between fighters from each edition is by the foes each is expected to face in a "normal" encounter.
-O
Thus rendering any discussion or statistical calculation of any edition prior to 3e completely subjective, as previous editions did not go to the extent that 4e or even 3e did towards providing hard mechanical guidelines on encounter construction.
What then is a "normal encounter" in 1e, beyond "what ever the DM felt was appropriate for that room"?
Quote from: J Arcane;220658Thus rendering any discussion or statistical calculation of any edition prior to 3e completely subjective, as previous editions did not go to the extent that 4e or even 3e did towards providing hard mechanical guidelines on encounter construction.
What then is a "normal encounter" in 1e, beyond "what ever the DM felt was appropriate for that room"?
Nope, earlier editions didn't give a gauge at all. I'd say it's totally subjective, although 1e and 2e goblins are pretty much identical, IIRC.
-O
Quote from: obryn;220635About the only constant I can settle on is a common unit between the two games that means the same thing in each game - the encounter.
Interesting. What about the fundamental attack roll? Would you say that's changed so dramatically that it can't be seen as consistent? I mean, as has been discussed, earlier editions never really even saw things in terms of "encounter" the way 3e and 4e do. Are not the basic attack roll and HP as unit of measure of both ability to injure and survive (no matter how many have been assigned to an individual character, monster, weapon, etc.) the most consistent aspects running through all of the editions?
Quote from: James J Skach;220674Interesting. What about the fundamental attack roll? Would you say that's changed so dramatically that it can't be seen as consistent? I mean, as has been discussed, earlier editions never really even saw things in terms of "encounter" the way 3e and 4e do. Are not the basic attack roll and HP as unit of measure of both ability to injure and survive (no matter how many have been assigned to an individual character, monster, weapon, etc.) the most consistent aspects running through all of the editions?
That's a pretty difficult comparison, too. Attack rolls are just dandy. But when you're talking HPs and damage, you're again talking different scales.
For example, a 3e fighter will generally have 12-14 hp at 1st level, and a goblin will have about 5-6 hps. A 1e/2e fighter will have probably an average of 7-8 hps, and a goblin somewhere around 3-4. In both cases, a fighter should have around 2x the HPs of a goblin.
In 4e, a 1st-level fighter may have 29-31 hps. A goblin minion will have 1, whereas a goblin warrior will have 29. By this measure, neither is a very good comparison.
If you want to use a goblin warrior with 15 hps instead of 29, that may be a better comparison. I still think, when looking from 3e-4e, that the encounter is the most reasonable measure of comparison.
-O
Quote from: obryn;220701That's a pretty difficult comparison, too. Attack rolls are just dandy. But when you're talking HPs and damage, you're again talking different scales.
I believe, and please don't take offense, that's the entire point. The way I read it is that while the scale change, it's not proportional.
So you end up with this weird situation (and I don't mean that in the bad way, it's very interesting to me actually) where the goblin is more dangerous wrt chances to hit or be hit, but does not scale wrt to...strength is the wrong word...ability to withstand the hits.
Now senior hensley's analysis is interesting is that it seems to show that overall, one of two things is true (IMHO), either the goblin minion is severely underpowered in 4e in comparison to earlier edition goblins, or the fighter is much more powerful.
I should be clear that I don't hold either approach as good or bad - that's a matter of personal taste.
I'm certainly open to other interpretations; like the idea that if you broaden the scope (as you point out, to encounter) and take things like experience into account, the scale might return to a more proportional scale.
Quote from: James J Skach;220727Now senior hensley's analysis is interesting is that it seems to show that overall, one of two things is true (IMHO), either the goblin minion is severely underpowered in 4e in comparison to earlier edition goblins, or the fighter is much more powerful.
I should be clear that I don't hold either approach as good or bad - that's a matter of personal taste.
Well, I think the former is quite true. Goblin minions are very definitely low-powered in comparison to characters of any sort. Minions are "meant" to be used in mobs - they're not really equivalent to anything in any previous edition. Their HPs (which are always 1) are completely divorced from their attack power and damage. You can have, for instance, a 22nd-level minion who has attacks & defenses around where they "should" be, but who - again - has only 1 hp.
I think a clearer comparison - fighter vs. goblin warrior - shows that, if anything, goblins are more dangerous to an average 1st-level fighter in 4e.
-O
Quote from: obryn;220749I think a clearer comparison - fighter vs. goblin warrior - shows that, if anything, goblins are more dangerous to an average 1st-level fighter in 4e.
I'm with you right up until the bold word. All it shows is that goblin warriors are more dangerous (if true, I haven't seen that comparison - is that over on the link?).
It's why I keep asking - how many goblin warriors are you likely to meet, as opposed to minions? Oh yeah, it's part of the CR stuff - at which point it becomes a sort of tautology.
I don't have the 4e MM, is there a random encounter for goblins showing how many minions versus warriors? Is there anything like in AD&D showing that for every X goblins (in 4e, minions) there would be a sub-chief (warrior)?
That, to me, could shed some light on it.
Quote from: James J Skach;220772I'm with you right up until the bold word. All it shows is that goblin warriors are more dangerous (if true, I haven't seen that comparison - is that over on the link?).
It's why I keep asking - how many goblin warriors are you likely to meet, as opposed to minions? Oh yeah, it's part of the CR stuff - at which point it becomes a sort of tautology.
I don't have the 4e MM, is there a random encounter for goblins showing how many minions versus warriors? Is there anything like in AD&D showing that for every X goblins (in 4e, minions) there would be a sub-chief (warrior)?
That, to me, could shed some light on it.
The goblin warriors and blackblades
are your basic scrubs. They're your 1st-level Warriors or Rogues under 3e. (And, in 3e, a typical Goblin was a 1st-level warrior.) Goblin Underbosses - sub-chiefs - are Level 4 Elites. Minions are minions - they're not analogous to anything at all in 3e.
There's no random encounter tables with "X Goblins, X Warriors, etc." There are suggested encounter groups which go as follows:
Level 1 Encounter (XP 500)
* 2 goblin warriors (level 1 skirmisher)
* 2 fire beetles (level 1 brute)
* 1 goblin blackblade (level 1 lurker)
Level 3 Encounter (XP 750)
* 2 goblin sharpshooters (level 2 artillery)
* 4 goblin warriors (level 1 skirmisher)
* 4 goblin cutters (level 1 minion)
Level 5 Encounter (XP 1,150)
* 1 goblin underboss (level 4 elite controller)
* 2 goblin skullcleavers (level 3 brute)
* 5 goblin warriors (level 1 skirmisher)
There's other encounters from there, involving hexers, skullcleavers, and so on.
I fail to see how CR is a tautology, however. 3e says "X goblins is a fitting encounter for a group of Y characters." 4e says "X xp value of goblins is a fitting encounter for a group of Y characters." We're not defining the terms as themselves; we're looking at each individual edition of the game, and recognizing how deadly they consider goblins to be, and how many should be an "encounter" for a group of PCs.
-O
I honestly fail to see why there's even an argument here. Hasn't everyone (including the designers) said that 1st level in 4e more like 4th level in earlier editions? So why is it controversial that a 1st level 4e fighter is twice as powerful as one in 3e? The data just confirms that 4e is working as intended.
Quote from: mhensley;220848I honestly fail to see why there's even an argument here. Hasn't everyone (including the designers) said that 1st level in 4e more like 4th level in earlier editions? So why is it controversial that a 1st level 4e fighter is twice as powerful as one in 3e? The data just confirms that 4e is working as intended.
Because for some blasted reason it has become the core argument of many 4e fans that it's not actually changed.
I keep pointing out that claiming such means accusing Wizards of failure, but they don't seem to think that far ahead.
Quote from: J Arcane;220884Because for some blasted reason it has become the core argument of many 4e fans that it's not actually changed.
I keep pointing out that claiming such means accusing Wizards of failure, but they don't seem to think that far ahead.
Erm, no... but thanks for the assumption!
I'm disagreeing because it runs counter to every actual play experience I've had in 4e. If anything - apart from the corner-case of minions - combat in 4e seems to be deadlier than 3e. Throwing up a chart to try and show "Fighters in 4e are uber!" really misses the point, particularly since the analysis is flawed.
-O
Quote from: mhensley;220848I honestly fail to see why there's even an argument here. Hasn't everyone (including the designers) said that 1st level in 4e more like 4th level in earlier editions? So why is it controversial that a 1st level 4e fighter is twice as powerful as one in 3e? The data just confirms that 4e is working as intended.
I'm not really concerned with what the data proves, or whose agenda it serves, or the results you end up with, I just like accurate things. I think you've done something pretty accurate and very interesting, so I'd like to make it as accurate as possible. That's why.
Quote from: obryn;220886combat in 4e seems to be deadlier than 3e
Can you die in round 1 from the first hit? No. It's not going to happen in 4e- ever. So how on earth can you make such a statement? There's just no way that combat is deadlier in 4e.
Not sure if people missed my question or are simply ignoring it :)
Did you account the healing surge being used by the 4th edition fighter? He can recover Hit Points on his own (no potion or spell) in the middle of combat, something no other edition's fighter can do. So did the simulation just have the fighter keep attacking every round, or did it let him use the surge to recover?
Quote from: Engine;220888I'm not really concerned with what the data proves, or whose agenda it serves, or the results you end up with, I just like accurate things. I think you've done something pretty accurate and very interesting, so I'd like to make it as accurate as possible. That's why.
Thanks, I tried to make it as accurate as possible (and froze up a few browsers doing it- damn javascript memory leaks). I guess the real problem is that 4e is such a different game that comparisons are difficult to make.
Quote from: wulfgar;220919Not sure if people missed my question or are simply ignoring it :)
Did you account the healing surge being used by the 4th edition fighter? He can recover Hit Points on his own (no potion or spell) in the middle of combat, something no other edition's fighter can do. So did the simulation just have the fighter keep attacking every round, or did it let him use the surge to recover?
He does get his surge for 7 hit points. It's assumed that he uses an action point to do it at some point in the fight.
Quote from: mhensley;220913Can you die in round 1 from the first hit? No. It's not going to happen in 4e- ever. So how on earth can you make such a statement? There's just no way that combat is deadlier in 4e.
It's all about how you work it, though. Character death is pretty damn common under 4e. No, there's few one-hit kills - PCs can actually
run from overpowering opponents before they get one-shotted - but over the course of a combat, character death is, in my experience, likelier than in 3e.
Overall, HPs have scaled upwards and damage has been scaled downwards. This goes for both PCs and monsters, though, which is an important point.
-O
Quote from: mhensley;220920Thanks, I tried to make it as accurate as possible (and froze up a few browsers doing it- damn javascript memory leaks). I guess the real problem is that 4e is such a different game that comparisons are difficult to make.
Yea, I'm here too, the game is different. I still think the use of single minions isn't quite right.
I appreciate the work and all the data you've posted and the lengths you've gone to getting this on other forums and dealing with the fallout.
Very nice work, Thanks!
(http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/MTG-ThreadNecromancer_3198.jpg)
Now updated for D&D Next-
http://1d8.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-evolution-of-fighter-in-d-take-3.html
Surprise! The 5e fighter is exactly as powerful as the 4e one. So much for that old school feel...
Quote from: mhensley;626195(http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/MTG-ThreadNecromancer_3198.jpg)
Now updated for D&D Next-
http://1d8.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-evolution-of-fighter-in-d-take-3.html
Surprise! The 5e fighter is exactly as powerful as the 4e one. So much for that old school feel...
Oh wow, that sucks.
that's uncanny. thanks for the update!