For 4e, instead of all minions or all 1st-level goblins, is there perhaps a standard ratio of one to the other that could be used? So e.g. if the book recommends one 1st-level goblin per four minions, then after each goblin dies, there'd be a 20% chance that the next one would be a 1st-level gobbo.

Thanks for that graph and that work.

I think that your choice of a single minion one at a time is off however. I'll just note that minions are meant to be used in groups. Either a couplefew minions per run or something a bit stronger.

Consider explaining the jump in the graph from 3e to 4e, I would hope that you agree that the major contributing factor is the use of single minions.

I do think that this highlights that 4e is a different game. Nice work.

If you're using the standard rules for each edition the BD&D Fighter should still only get 1d6 damage for his sword.  Variable damage is an optional rule in Basic.  The standard rule is still all weapons do 1d6.  Very interesting presentation.

Quote from: mhensley;220218I think it's a proper comparison.  For example, the 3e Goblin only gets 1d8+1 hitpoints and the normal 1st level 3e Fighter will do 1d8+3 damage a swing usually killing him in one shot. Likewise, the 3e Goblin is a CR 1/3 creature so 3 of them only equals a single 1st level creature.    Sounds like a minion to me.

Well, the HPs of the player characters were also scaled up.  Also, much of the power of goblin minions comes from their ability to shift and flank, and so forth, which your model (I suspect) loses.   I would really prefer to see the battle against a normal 1st level goblin.

I don't have the MM or DMG - do minions have a lesser chance to hit? Are there AC/Defense differences? Is a first level fighter in 4e going to see "1st level goblins" or minions?

Quote from: James J Skach;220257I don't have the MM or DMG - do minions have a lesser chance to hit? Are there AC/Defense differences? Is a first level fighter in 4e going to see "1st level goblins" or minions?

The only difference is in the durability. Minions have attack and defense bonuses appropriate to their level.

And a 1st level fighter will face both regular goblins and goblin minions.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;220278The only difference is in the durability. Minions have attack and defense bonuses appropriate to their level.

And a 1st level fighter will face both regular goblins and goblin minions.

I just wantt o make sure I understood correctly:

A 1st level goblin, and a goblin minion will have the same attack and defense bonus, correct?

The only difference is that a 1st level goblin will have actual hit points, whereas a minion has, essentially, 1 (they will die on a single success), correct?

The reason to push for non-minion goblins is scale. Yes, usually a goblin dies in one hit in earlier editions. So too, however, did lowly 1'st level characters. If not one, then two.

The durability of the 1st level fighter is ofset by the durability of 1st level monsters, with minions providing bulk and skirmisher elements in essence. By taking a below scale minion, just because it matches up with earlier edition equivilents does not mean it is scaled appropriately for the challenge you've set.

In essense, you could get nearly the same results by porting an older edition goblin into 4th edition D&D, and could similarly skew the results by porting the 4E fighter (or his hit points, anyway) directly into an older edition challenge.  

It looks good, but actually provides bad math. While your example is somewhat more reasonable than my hypothetical, the actual results are the same: Skewed statistics.

You know, I first posted my initial findings a week ago on enworld and there I had the 4e fighter fight the non-minion goblins.  The 4e supporters there complained that I should have used minions as it made the 4e look weak in comparison to the 3e one.  It seems that I can't win with this.

Also, if the scale here seems wrong how do you explain stuff like the game I played in a couple of days ago.  We didn't have enough players show up to really play, so it ended up with just me and the dm.  We ran a standup fight between 4 identical 1st level fighters and the solo black dragon.  A large black dragon... and the 4 1st level fighters beat him.  That wouldn't come close to happening in any previous edition.  Face it, the power level in 4e is far higher than in previous editions.

Quote from: James J Skach;220283I just wantt o make sure I understood correctly:

A 1st level goblin, and a goblin minion will have the same attack and defense bonus, correct?

The only difference is that a 1st level goblin will have actual hit points, whereas a minion has, essentially, 1 (they will die on a single success), correct?

Yes, you are essentially correct.  Here are the stats-

Gobbo Minion-
HP- 1
AC-16
Attack- +5 vs. AC
Damage- 4

Gobbo Blackblade
HP- 25
AC- 16
Attack- +5 vs. AC
Damage- 1d6+2

Quote from: Jeffrey Straszheim;220247Well, the HPs of the player characters were also scaled up.  Also, much of the power of goblin minions comes from their ability to shift and flank, and so forth, which your model (I suspect) loses.   I would really prefer to see the battle against a normal 1st level goblin.

The fighter also loses the use of most of his powers as well.  Cleave doesn't work.  His daily is pointless, etc.

Quote from: wulfgar;220246If you're using the standard rules for each edition the BD&D Fighter should still only get 1d6 damage for his sword.  Variable damage is an optional rule in Basic.  The standard rule is still all weapons do 1d6.  Very interesting presentation.

True, but I've never seen anyone actually play without variable weapon damage. I certainly never did.

Quote from: dar;220244Consider explaining the jump in the graph from 3e to 4e, I would hope that you agree that the major contributing factor is the use of single minions.

Actually, the use of minions is not the main reason for the big jump in power.  The biggest reasons are the huge increase in hit points and a much better chance of landing a hit in combat.  The 3e fighter has an attack bonus of +5.  The 4e fighter though has an attack bonus of +10 with his at will power of Sure Strike.

Can you post the graph and data with the non minion goblins. I think you just contradicted your self a bit by stating that with the non minion goblins things went round the other way...

http://grubbstreet.blogspot.com/2008/06/green-dragon.html

I guess he is saying that the system had a bit of tuning to bring dragons within grasp of 1st level while trying to preserve high level with them.

Also I've seen GM's have trouble being tough enough with the dragons and getting into trouble because of underestimating the PC's and nerfing the dragon.

Edit: nerfing untentially in many cases as well.