Quote from: HappyDaze on August 18, 2022, 03:07:45 AM
Would Eclipse Phase qualify?

I think it would for meaning, with the caveat that mechanical system is complete garbage. Still, as an interesting game system coupled with some interesting ideas in the setting, I think it could fairly be considered in the running for the right year.

Quote from: Effete on August 17, 2022, 09:00:54 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 17, 2022, 08:08:12 PM
Since I can't play a "Native American" because I don't belong to the tribes (even if I'm more native american than the author of C&C {1/4 Maya}) I guessed I couldn't play a lesbian because I'm not one.

No need. The book makes it clear that trans-woman ARE woman, so you can still play as a dude that is into chicks.

GenCon room assignment staff must feel so justified by that......

Quote from: jeff37923 on August 18, 2022, 06:15:46 AM

Quote from: Effete on August 17, 2022, 09:00:54 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 17, 2022, 08:08:12 PM
Since I can't play a "Native American" because I don't belong to the tribes (even if I'm more native american than the author of C&C {1/4 Maya}) I guessed I couldn't play a lesbian because I'm not one.

No need. The book makes it clear that trans-woman ARE woman, so you can still play as a dude that is into chicks.

GenCon room assignment staff must feel so justified by that......

But isn't that exactly what happened??

Quote from: SquidLord on August 18, 2022, 02:13:58 AM
Find me a game with identity politics, solid mechanics, in an otherwise interesting premise – and I'd be willing to take a look at it. In fact, I'd settle for identity politics and an otherwise interesting premise.

Perhaps Shock will check that box.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock:_Social_Science_Fiction

Quote from: zircher on August 18, 2022, 12:05:26 PM
Perhaps Shock will check that box.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock:_Social_Science_Fiction

I'm not sure it does, actually! I've had a copy of Shock since it was released, lo these many years, and while the author is a bit SJW-ish, the game itself doesn't focus around identity politics. It does deliberately focus on social issues, that part is true – but it doesn't specify how they should shake out.

Admittedly it's been a few years since I've read it, but as I recall you could definitely come to some unexpected/non-politically correct conclusions as a result of play.

Overall, a pretty good game, I'd say.

I don't have anything against the game itself--to each his own and it's not anything I'd spend money on--however, as a Free League fan I am royally disappointed that they didn't get more nominations and wins in a year full of outstanding releases.

Seriously, I mean Twilight: 2000 made over $500K on Kickstarter and The One Ring pulled in about $1.5M (not to mention other supplements for Vaesen, Forbidden Lands and Ruins of Symbaroum all did over $300K at least). All their products have really great writing and production values.  Then, over at Modiphius you had lots of great books for lines like Dune, Fallout, Star Trek Adventures and Conan.

How crazy is that...?

I'm reading The Troubleshooters at the moment and I'm surprised that it even got an Ennie nomination. 

I suspect it is a viable (possibly even great) game in actual play, but...

It covers something very niche from an US perspective. Pulp adventure in the style of Franco-Belgian comics books. In an alternate universe a lot like our own during the 2nd half of the 1960's, first half of the 1970's.

An alternate universe in which the US is crushed completely in the space race, not by the Soviets, but by a Franco-Japanese partnership landing on the moon in 1964 in basically this:
https://media.s-bol.com/ojGXDxpgM5VK/892x1200.jpg

Quote from: BytomMan on August 22, 2022, 11:59:19 PM
I don't have anything against the game itself--to each his own and it's not anything I'd spend money on--however, as a Free League fan I am royally disappointed that they didn't get more nominations and wins in a year full of outstanding releases.

Seriously, I mean Twilight: 2000 made over $500K on Kickstarter and The One Ring pulled in about $1.5M (not to mention other supplements for Vaesen, Forbidden Lands and Ruins of Symbaroum all did over $300K at least). All their products have really great writing and production values.  Then, over at Modiphius you had lots of great books for lines like Dune, Fallout, Star Trek Adventures and Conan.

How crazy is that...?

But were they *good*? The only one I own is Ruins of Symbaroum, and I was so unimpressed I've never finished reading either the rules or the adventure.

Now, most of what's being complained about here doesn't strike me as good games, either - but I don't think we can say "fans paid lots of money for this, mostly sight unseen, therefore it must be worthy!"

Quote from: Naburimannu on August 30, 2022, 04:22:22 PM

Quote from: BytomMan on August 22, 2022, 11:59:19 PM
I don't have anything against the game itself--to each his own and it's not anything I'd spend money on--however, as a Free League fan I am royally disappointed that they didn't get more nominations and wins in a year full of outstanding releases.

Seriously, I mean Twilight: 2000 made over $500K on Kickstarter and The One Ring pulled in about $1.5M (not to mention other supplements for Vaesen, Forbidden Lands and Ruins of Symbaroum all did over $300K at least). All their products have really great writing and production values.  Then, over at Modiphius you had lots of great books for lines like Dune, Fallout, Star Trek Adventures and Conan.

How crazy is that...?

But were they *good*? The only one I own is Ruins of Symbaroum, and I was so unimpressed I've never finished reading either the rules or the adventure.
...

^Naburimannu knows.^


1st: Twilight: 2000 made over $500K on Kickstarter and The One Ring pulled in about $1.5M (not to mention other supplements for Vaesen, Forbidden Lands and Ruins of Symbaroum all did over $300K at least)

And who is playing these? Where is the player base? How big  of a network effect are they building for each line?

That's 4 big kickstarters of time and effort that could have been put into promoting, and creating support for a popular game line that FL already has out.

Oh, wait, that's right...

FL is kinda the one hit wonder studio. Lots of "cool" games, but only Symbaroum has the number of supplements that anyone would actually call a supported RPG line.

Maybe Drakar och Demoner will move them out of their new game rinse and repeat cycle. If it takes.



2nd: Modiphius you had lots of great books for lines like Dune, Fallout, Star Trek Adventures and Conan.

Is anyone regularly playing any of these?

It's virtually all IP Lore driven nostalgiaberry book sales. Their whole Conan RPG line is based around that...


I've gotten very cynical about cool RPG maker X's new hotness RPG when you look and see how many different RPG's they put out yet how few have more than one or two supplements.

Quote from: Jaeger on August 31, 2022, 01:11:12 AM

Quote from: Naburimannu on August 30, 2022, 04:22:22 PM

Quote from: BytomMan on August 22, 2022, 11:59:19 PM
I don't have anything against the game itself--to each his own and it's not anything I'd spend money on--however, as a Free League fan I am royally disappointed that they didn't get more nominations and wins in a year full of outstanding releases.

Seriously, I mean Twilight: 2000 made over $500K on Kickstarter and The One Ring pulled in about $1.5M (not to mention other supplements for Vaesen, Forbidden Lands and Ruins of Symbaroum all did over $300K at least). All their products have really great writing and production values.  Then, over at Modiphius you had lots of great books for lines like Dune, Fallout, Star Trek Adventures and Conan.

How crazy is that...?

But were they *good*? The only one I own is Ruins of Symbaroum, and I was so unimpressed I've never finished reading either the rules or the adventure.
...

^Naburimannu knows.^


1st: Twilight: 2000 made over $500K on Kickstarter and The One Ring pulled in about $1.5M (not to mention other supplements for Vaesen, Forbidden Lands and Ruins of Symbaroum all did over $300K at least)

And who is playing these? Where is the player base? How big  of a network effect are they building for each line?

That's 4 big kickstarters of time and effort that could have been put into promoting, and creating support for a popular game line that FL already has out.

Oh, wait, that's right...

FL is kinda the one hit wonder studio. Lots of "cool" games, but only Symbaroum has the number of supplements that anyone would actually call a supported RPG line.

Maybe Drakar och Demoner will move them out of their new game rinse and repeat cycle. If it takes.



2nd: Modiphius you had lots of great books for lines like Dune, Fallout, Star Trek Adventures and Conan.

Is anyone regularly playing any of these?

It's virtually all IP Lore driven nostalgiaberry book sales. Their whole Conan RPG line is based around that...


I've gotten very cynical about cool RPG maker X's new hotness RPG when you look and see how many different RPG's they put out yet how few have more than one or two supplements.

Greetings!

*Brutal* Jaeger! *Laughing*

True analysis though, that is spot on. All thee flashy, sexy games--with few or no supplements--are raved about by some online--and yet, the deep, harsh reality is that most of these "games"--are glorified coffee-table books and bookcase decorations.

No one is playing them. Probably a few somewhere, but you get the point. It does make me wonder, if these games are so brilliant, so deep, so innovative--why aren't more people playing them?

Of all these new games--vaunted and celebrated as they are--the only game I have heard--from online, but from *gamers*--not just talking heads or critics--is Mork Borg. I think I have heard a few gamers talk about Mork Borg at my local game store, too. That's it though.

The Ennies are merely a circle jerking get together.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Jaeger on August 31, 2022, 01:11:12 AM
^Naburimannu knows.^


1st: Twilight: 2000 made over $500K on Kickstarter and The One Ring pulled in about $1.5M (not to mention other supplements for Vaesen, Forbidden Lands and Ruins of Symbaroum all did over $300K at least)

And who is playing these? Where is the player base? How big of a network effect are they building for each line?

That's 4 big kickstarters of time and effort that could have been put into promoting, and creating support for a popular game line that FL already has out.

Oh, wait, that's right...

FL is kinda the one hit wonder studio. Lots of "cool" games, but only Symbaroum has the number of supplements that anyone would actually call a supported RPG line.

Maybe Drakar och Demoner will move them out of their new game rinse and repeat cycle. If it takes.



2nd: Modiphius you had lots of great books for lines like Dune, Fallout, Star Trek Adventures and Conan.

Is anyone regularly playing any of these?

It's virtually all IP Lore driven nostalgiaberry book sales. Their whole Conan RPG line is based around that...


I've gotten very cynical about cool RPG maker X's new hotness RPG when you look and see how many different RPG's they put out yet how few have more than one or two supplements.

How regularly does a game need to be played?  My main gaming group tends to switch games every 6 months or so.  I just finished playing in a Twilight 2000 campaign.  I'm getting ready to run my 3rd Conan one.  I know of a The One Ring campaign going on in my area. 

People are playing these.  I've found plenty online willing to talk about the games, help out, give advice, compare notes, etc.  How big of a player base does a game need to be considered "active"?  Because past D&D and Pathfinder, once you drop under the B tier of things, like Shadowrun, Cyberpunk 20whatever edition, Warhammer and a handful of others, most games have a player base that might as well be "nothing".

As for not supporting their games, do we need to have the nerd argument again about the supplement treadmill?  How many and how often does a game need to put out more material.  Is it possible to be a one-and-done book?  A lot of indie games never get a 2nd book and people play them just fine.

Free League does back up their stuff but maybe it's just not to your level of satisfaction?  Looking over my shelf (and adding in a few pdfs) I see:

Alien: 1 box set campaign, 1 expansion book
Coriolis: 1 campaign book, 6 supplements (setting, tech, adventures)
Forbidden Lands: 2 setting expansions, 2 adventure books, 1 campaign book and a bestiary about to get printed
Mutant Year Zero: 3 expansion books (each a complete game of their own), 5 adventures, 2 mini setting encounters, 1 campaign book
Tales From the Loop: 1 expansion book and 2 books of adventures
Vaesen: 1 setting expansion, 2 books of adventures, 1 adventure

Quote from: SHARK on August 31, 2022, 05:04:42 AM
...
Of all these new games--vaunted and celebrated as they are--the only game I have heard--from online, but from *gamers*--not just talking heads or critics--is Mork Borg. I think I have heard a few gamers talk about Mork Borg at my local game store, too. That's it though.
...

Don't get me started on Mork half-a-game Borg. I actually got it before its creators let their mask slip. It is an incomplete game that embraces misery tourism. "Metal" my ass...

I should have paid attention to actual reviews. Totally on me.

Quote from: rgalex on August 31, 2022, 08:03:05 AM
...
How regularly does a game need to be played?  My main gaming group tends to switch games every 6 months or so.  I just finished playing in a Twilight 2000 campaign.  I'm getting ready to run my 3rd Conan one.  I know of a The One Ring campaign going on in my area. 

Groups like that are very much an exception. My group switches games at the end of every campaign as well. We are an exception.

This exceptional effect can vary depending on the local RPG scene.

Most other groups circulate through the 2-3 games their GM is comfortable with. They are outliers too.

The rest of the hobby only runs some flavor of D&D. That is the norm.

That is the hobby.

Quote from: rgalex on August 31, 2022, 08:03:05 AM
People are playing these.  I've found plenty online willing to talk about the games, help out, give advice, compare notes, etc.  How big of a player base does a game need to be considered "active"?  Because past D&D and Pathfinder, once you drop under the B tier of things, like Shadowrun, Cyberpunk 20whatever edition, Warhammer and a handful of others, most games have a player base that might as well be "nothing".

More RPG companies should aspire to be "B" Tier.

Every older "B" tier company game line: Shadowrun, Cyberpunk, Vampire/WoD, are all very vulnerable to being displaced due to long term mismanagement.

Their niche genres should be under ruthless attack.

Quote from: rgalex on August 31, 2022, 08:03:05 AM
As for not supporting their games, do we need to have the nerd argument again about the supplement treadmill?  How many and how often does a game need to put out more material.  Is it possible to be a one-and-done book?  A lot of indie games never get a 2nd book and people play them just fine.

Absolutely true. Nothing wrong with playing one and done games.

But it also fits right in with my "one hit wonder" description of certain games.

I Love The Riddle of Steel. It is the RPG that got me back into RPG's in college. It is an obscure RPG that will probably never get a needed second edition that fixes sorcery because of zero follow up outside of two supplements.

One quasi-hit kinda wonder of a game.

I Love it. But nobody plays it anymore.

That's the reality.

Yes, I could get my group to play it. Won't change the fact that nobody plays it anymore.

Quote from: rgalex on August 31, 2022, 08:03:05 AM
Free League does back up their stuff but maybe it's just not to your level of satisfaction? Looking over my shelf (and adding in a few pdfs) I see:

It has Nothing to do with my "satisfaction". Reality doesn't care.

People like to play "supported" systems. Ones that are not "supported" tend to fall by the wayside. It is what it is.

That is the reality of our hobby.

"Looking over my shelf" is right. We all own far more games than are actually played:

Alien: 1 box set campaign, 1 expansion book
Less than 2-3 supplements - A new game - but also IP dependent. Not one of the three evergreen licensed RPG IP; destined for one hit wonder status.

Coriolis: 1 campaign book, 6 supplements (setting, tech, adventures)
Out since 2017 - 5 years and that's it.

Forbidden Lands: 2 setting expansions, 2 adventure books, 1 campaign book and a bestiary about to get printed
Out since 2019 - 3 years, and they're only now doing the Bestiary?

Mutant Year Zero: 3 expansion books (each a complete game of their own), 5 adventures, 2 mini setting encounters, 1 campaign book -
Out since 2015 - 7 years and that's it.

Tales From the Loop: 1 expansion book and 2 books of adventures
Out since 2017 - 5 years and that's it. 

Vaesen: 1 setting expansion, 2 books of adventures, 1 adventure
Out since 2020 - 2 years and that's it.

The majority on this list is dribbling along at 1.x ish or so supplements a year. Boutique games.

Nothing wrong with playing Boutique games - but it goes to show that big Kickstarter $$$ are not an indication of how many people actually play a game.

That is the reality of my questions: Who is playing these? Where is the player base? How big of a network effect are they building for each line? And: 4 big kickstarters of time and effort that could have been put into promoting, and creating support for a popular game line that FL already has out.

A game lives and dies on the network effect that is created for it.

To lift a game into "B" Tier status you need to put out 3-4 supplements per year to hold peoples attention. So that you can begin to grow the player base, and creating a network effect that people will take notice of, and want to be a part of.

So FL can generate big KS numbers. More power to them. Also: So what?

Quote from: Jaeger on August 31, 2022, 02:12:32 PM
So FL can generate big KS numbers. More power to them. Also: So what?

Except in other threads that DeadManWoking's been participating in. We've explained over and over that the numbers are meaningless if you end up spending it all on production. He's jumped the shark into straightup willfull ignorance.

Quote from: Jaeger on August 31, 2022, 02:12:32 PM

[...edit...]

That is the reality of my questions: Who is playing these? Where is the player base? How big of a network effect are they building for each line? And: 4 big kickstarters of time and effort that could have been put into promoting, and creating support for a popular game line that FL already has out.

A game lives and dies on the network effect that is created for it.

To lift a game into "B" Tier status you need to put out 3-4 supplements per year to hold peoples attention. So that you can begin to grow the player base, and creating a network effect that people will take notice of, and want to be a part of.

So FL can generate big KS numbers. More power to them. Also: So what?

You raise a good point, and one I had overlooked. Fria Ligan produces some very high-quality products--beautiful art, excellent layout, quality components, well-presented books...and since I have a bit of a weakness for all things Nordic, I've given them a pass with regards to development. But considering that some of their most important game lines were not originated in-house (TftL depends on the art of Simon Stålenhag, Mutant Year Zero was an older game from the 80s, along with one or two others...), maybe they are lacking in real creatives (despite the excellent graphic design and art).

Not every game needs to be D&D to be successful, and many games are now and will always be niche--but those are some of my personal favourites. Niche is not a failure--it is a success. But is Fria Ligan merely riding coattails of earlier creatives as they churn out beautiful boxes? How can they really develop community, and will they? And one question is, what are these like in Sverige?

Good questions, all of you.