Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 27, 2021, 11:22:36 AM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on May 27, 2021, 11:14:04 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 27, 2021, 10:48:36 AM
I don't think there are too many fans of Torg Eternity on this board, but its Orrorsh cosm is (IMO) a far better take on Domains of Dread-style Ravenloft's core concepts. If you want to go with some sci-fi techno-horror, then mix in some of the Tharkold cosm too.

I loved me some Torg back in the day (2ed is better-and-worse for me).  Orrorsh certainly comes closer to the "any genre, but with Gothic horror!" than Ravenloft managed.

(I kinda' wished the cosm got a proper source book, like Terra did, but I'm recalling it was mostly "dead" and would be of limited use without retconning?)

Orrorsh got a sourcebook (here on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/p/119854818?iid=184675563749). I had a GM who ran it a lot for us. Really great setting. I never ran it myself (I was a Ravenloft GM), but this one got a lot of respect from me as a player, and I would have picked it up to run myself, but didn't want to have any of the mystery spoiled for me as our GM ran quote a number of campaigns.

I'll put on my pedantic hat for a second.

The cosms were the actual home world the invaders came from, the realms were their places on our earth.

So while the Nile Empire got a realm -and- cosm book (and was the only invader to do so, if I recall right), Orrorsh did not.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on May 27, 2021, 11:42:20 AM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 27, 2021, 11:22:36 AM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on May 27, 2021, 11:14:04 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 27, 2021, 10:48:36 AM
I don't think there are too many fans of Torg Eternity on this board, but its Orrorsh cosm is (IMO) a far better take on Domains of Dread-style Ravenloft's core concepts. If you want to go with some sci-fi techno-horror, then mix in some of the Tharkold cosm too.

I loved me some Torg back in the day (2ed is better-and-worse for me).  Orrorsh certainly comes closer to the "any genre, but with Gothic horror!" than Ravenloft managed.

(I kinda' wished the cosm got a proper source book, like Terra did, but I'm recalling it was mostly "dead" and would be of limited use without retconning?)

Orrorsh got a sourcebook (here on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/p/119854818?iid=184675563749). I had a GM who ran it a lot for us. Really great setting. I never ran it myself (I was a Ravenloft GM), but this one got a lot of respect from me as a player, and I would have picked it up to run myself, but didn't want to have any of the mystery spoiled for me as our GM ran quote a number of campaigns.

I'll put on my pedantic hat for a second.

The cosms were the actual home world the invaders came from, the realms were their places on our earth.

So while the Nile Empire got a realm -and- cosm book (and was the only invader to do so, if I recall right), Orrorsh did not.

Interesting. I didn't realize they had sourcebooks for the home world's as well.

On this topic, I think someone, possibly you, might have made this point already, but TORG really would be the setting vehicle for multi-genre horror (and the system seems like it can handle it too). It deals really well with disparities in tech, and a world populated entirely by horror realms would fit. Ravenloft tried to address technological disparity later and it was a little wonky (I always thought Ravenloft worked best just having a generally more advanced historical setting like 16th, 17th, or even 18th century). But I think DoD did do a good job of at least trying to make sense of the different cultural levels. The setting and system just didn't have the gears for that stuff like TORG did (I remember in one campaign for example someone bringing tech to a more primitive realm and it was interesting how it handled that).

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 27, 2021, 12:51:53 PM
Interesting. I didn't realize they had sourcebooks for the home world's as well.

Just the Nile Empire, unfortunately.

There was a sourcebook on Ravagons that covered their home world, and there were books for monsters for Orrorsh, Aysle, and Tharkhold, as well as a Grimoire for Aysle, and weapon and vehicle sourcebooks covering all the settings, along with a few other hodge podge things (e.g. the World Below, the Berlin Citybook, etc.).  Point being, you could pick out bits and pieces for the different settings scattered across the books, but outside of Terra for the Nile Empire there wasn't really much direct/exclusive cosm support. 

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 27, 2021, 12:51:53 PMOn this topic, I think someone, possibly you, might have made this point already, but TORG really would be the setting vehicle for multi-genre horror (and the system seems like it can handle it too). It deals really well with disparities in tech, and a world populated entirely by horror realms would fit. Ravenloft tried to address technological disparity later and it was a little wonky (I always thought Ravenloft worked best just having a generally more advanced historical setting like 16th, 17th, or even 18th century). But I think DoD did do a good job of at least trying to make sense of the different cultural levels. The setting and system just didn't have the gears for that stuff like TORG did (I remember in one campaign for example someone bringing tech to a more primitive realm and it was interesting how it handled that).

I think what Ravenloft did that Torg didn't was better isolate the PCs.  In Torg, if things get too scary in Orrorsh, you can just leave.  "Puny mortal!  I will chase you to the ends of this world!"  "Will you chase me into this low magic, low spirit, high tech zone where you're powerless?"  "Well, no.  That'd just be silly."  In Ravenloft, if a Darklord doesn't want you to leave, you're not leaving (usually).  And even if you escape the Darklord, that just means you've moved into an area with a -different- Darklord to deal with.  In Torg, the High Lords could have impressive lieutenants, but they lacked that whole "prison jailor" vibe.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on May 27, 2021, 02:20:17 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 27, 2021, 12:51:53 PM
Interesting. I didn't realize they had sourcebooks for the home world's as well.

Just the Nile Empire, unfortunately.

There was a sourcebook on Ravagons that covered their home world, and there were books for monsters for Orrorsh, Aysle, and Tharkhold, as well as a Grimoire for Aysle, and weapon and vehicle sourcebooks covering all the settings, along with a few other hodge podge things (e.g. the World Below, the Berlin Citybook, etc.).  Point being, you could pick out bits and pieces for the different settings scattered across the books, but outside of Terra for the Nile Empire there wasn't really much direct/exclusive cosm support. 

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 27, 2021, 12:51:53 PMOn this topic, I think someone, possibly you, might have made this point already, but TORG really would be the setting vehicle for multi-genre horror (and the system seems like it can handle it too). It deals really well with disparities in tech, and a world populated entirely by horror realms would fit. Ravenloft tried to address technological disparity later and it was a little wonky (I always thought Ravenloft worked best just having a generally more advanced historical setting like 16th, 17th, or even 18th century). But I think DoD did do a good job of at least trying to make sense of the different cultural levels. The setting and system just didn't have the gears for that stuff like TORG did (I remember in one campaign for example someone bringing tech to a more primitive realm and it was interesting how it handled that).

I think what Ravenloft did that Torg didn't was better isolate the PCs.  In Torg, if things get too scary in Orrorsh, you can just leave.  "Puny mortal!  I will chase you to the ends of this world!"  "Will you chase me into this low magic, low spirit, high tech zone where you're powerless?"  "Well, no.  That'd just be silly."  In Ravenloft, if a Darklord doesn't want you to leave, you're not leaving (usually).  And even if you escape the Darklord, that just means you've moved into an area with a -different- Darklord to deal with.  In Torg, the High Lords could have impressive lieutenants, but they lacked that whole "prison jailor" vibe.

In Torg Eternity, Orrosh has a Corruption mechanic (which in some ways is like Dark Powers stuff from Ravenloft) and it does stick with you beyond the borders of Orrosh regardless of axioms. If you are Corrupted in Orrorsh (or by Orrosh effects anywhere else) they will plague you forever.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on May 27, 2021, 10:43:42 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 11, 2021, 11:08:18 PM

Quote from: thedungeondelver on May 11, 2021, 10:43:19 PM
Ravenloft was stupid from the get go, only the maps were any good.  I've never understood people's obsession with it, but, every time someone creates a "Greatest classic D&D modules" list, there we see, I6 right up towards the top.

Of course, those lists are never really going to be repeated, like they were in the early 90s, because now old D&D and old D&D adventures are icky and have problematic things in them.

I always liked the concept of Ravenloft, but never found the execution done quite right.

*) Ravenloft tends to fall apart if you look at it too closely ("how do the people in this Island of Terror get supplies and food?"  "Uh,Dark Powers bring it in?"  "Isn't that just saying 'a Wizard did it'?"  "Do you want to play Dungeons & Vampires or not?!?!"  "Well, yeah, but we could do that back on the Sword Coast.").

*) It wants to be all multi-genre-yet-Gothic-horror, but it's stuck with the D&D ruleset.  So no modern day settings, or cyberpunk settings, or 19th Century Russian settings, or anywhere else you could slap Gothic decor and attitudes onto.  Imagine if Ravenloft supported, say, The Black Hole as an inspiration.  And the one time they tried to branch out ("Gothic Earth"), they couldn't decide how the heck it meshed with Ravenloft.

*) Even within its limited setting space, it still offers a ton of different domains, realms, clusters, islands, etc. each with its own "feel" and Darklord.  And then it proceeds to basically make the characters' actions meaningless.  You can't -actually- defeat the Darklord in question, because either the Darklord can't be permanently defeated or a new NPC will take their place (or both!).  It's the nihilism of Call of Cthulhu donkey punching the optimism of Dungeons & Dragons.

*) And while there's a lot of fun stuff written for it (really!), there's a lot of stuff that either doesn't work due to taste differences (Carnival) or because it's just kinda' dumb (the grell just hanging out in Death House is the most immediate example I can think of).

OK, I got curious after all the talk here, and I picked up a copy of the new Van Richten's Guide. (Score one for viral marketing.) I'm still reading through it, so I don't have a definite opinion.

As I've mentioned, I agree with Habitual Gamer and dislike the whole demi-plane concept of adventures being in a domain sealed off from the real world. If I use it, I'd be taking locations in it and dropping them into a normal setting rather than as sealed-off pockets.

That said, I think there are plenty of pieces that could be mined for interesting material.

Quote from: Anselyn on May 14, 2021, 08:48:03 AM

Quote from: This Guy on May 13, 2021, 11:05:59 PM
saw a bit of art recently. Really going all in on that combat wheelchair gimmick arent they

This just in from the ENWorld review: "The famous occult detective Alanik Ray and adventuring physician Arthur Sedgwick are an example of how they're updated. While pursuing a serial killer Alanik fell from a roof, paralyzing his legs. Since his intellect has always been his greatest weapon, he still solves mysteries from a custom wheelchair, aided by Sedgwick, who he married."

Has it occurred to anyone that this is so OTT that they might just be taking the piss by this point?

No wonder the Dark Powers came for them - they fit perfectly into Ravenloft.

Quote from: Anselyn on May 14, 2021, 08:48:03 AM

Quote from: This Guy on May 13, 2021, 11:05:59 PM
saw a bit of art recently. Really going all in on that combat wheelchair gimmick arent they

This just in from the ENWorld review: "The famous occult detective Alanik Ray and adventuring physician Arthur Sedgwick are an example of how they're updated. While pursuing a serial killer Alanik fell from a roof, paralyzing his legs. Since his intellect has always been his greatest weapon, he still solves mysteries from a custom wheelchair, aided by Sedgwick, who he married."

Has it occurred to anyone that this is so OTT that they might just be taking the piss by this point?

So that's how Poe's Law works.

(And if he's so smart, why doesn't he realize there's a spell that can heal him?  It's a second level spell for five different classes.  It's relatively common, even by Ravenloft standards.  It doesn't even cost anything in components.  It's like he -wants- to be unable to walk.)

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on May 27, 2021, 05:47:45 PM

Quote from: Anselyn on May 14, 2021, 08:48:03 AM

Quote from: This Guy on May 13, 2021, 11:05:59 PM
saw a bit of art recently. Really going all in on that combat wheelchair gimmick arent they

This just in from the ENWorld review: "The famous occult detective Alanik Ray and adventuring physician Arthur Sedgwick are an example of how they're updated. While pursuing a serial killer Alanik fell from a roof, paralyzing his legs. Since his intellect has always been his greatest weapon, he still solves mysteries from a custom wheelchair, aided by Sedgwick, who he married."

Has it occurred to anyone that this is so OTT that they might just be taking the piss by this point?

So that's how Poe's Law works.

(And if he's so smart, why doesn't he realize there's a spell that can heal him?  It's a second level spell for five different classes.  It's relatively common, even by Ravenloft standards.  It doesn't even cost anything in components.  It's like he -wants- to be unable to walk.)

We need to shoe-in disability representation, dammit!

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 27, 2021, 08:33:41 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 26, 2021, 11:08:14 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 01:11:37 PM
There's a google doc written by a Roma discussing racism in the module. https://mobile.twitter.com/IlanaNight13/status/1277042876417888257

What are your thoughts?

I think that there's two different things regarding the vistani in Ravenloft.

First the Vistani are obviously a parallel with Romani Gypsies. This is not an "orcs are actually black people" stupidity, it's obvious both from the explicit presentation in the setting as well as in the source material that inspires the setting.

So, what was WRONG about how the Vistani are presented is that they are made out to be collectively sinister and evil. Mind you part of that may be because in the original Ravenloft module everything was pretty much evil about the place. But the fact remains.

That should be changed. The Vistani should be treated, like all other humans, as Neutral. Vistani can end up in the service of evil, like all humans can, can commit crimes or kill or cheat or steal, but these are not inherent characteristics of the entire race. They are, like most humans, mostly selfish, but will have some outliers toward nobility or villainy.

Some of the cultural details the guy points out are certainly true also.

On the other hand, the way WoTC treats the Vistani in Van Richten is pretty well disastrous. Instead of humanizing them, they have been further DEHUMANIZED, just in the other direction and in a way that wrecks the setting. The Vistani are now heroic kind loving people all beyond any faults. They are a completely open society of hippie travelers who adopt random people to join their 'family' because blood and culture mean nothing to them, they are totally tolerant and respecting of diversity, and of course now people cheer them everywhere they go, villagers in shitholes throughout Ravenloft celebrate when the Vistani come, to show how all of Ravenloft knows that Diversity Is Our Strength. I heard that it even said that the Vistani that helped Strahd and who Ezmerelda (now an androgynous character called "Ez") was first associated with were actually NOT VISTANI AT ALL (because Vistani can't be evil), and were really fake con artists just pretending to be vistani (I swear to god, this sounds like a lie told by an 9 year old trying to make up an explanation for how something got broken that doesn't involve them).

This is absolute bullshit.

I see.

I agree for the most part. However, I do think there were some potentially good ideas that were badly executed.

For example, the vistani could have adopted orphans, persons with disabilities, and teenage runaways. Such individuals are indoctrinated into the vistani culture, as you would expect. This is where the (false) stereotype of them kidnapping children comes from.

Well yeah. But more importantly, the historical discrimination that Gypsies had experienced was something that became a defining factor in their culture and history.  Claiming that the presentation of the Vistani is "inaccurate" and then turning around and having the Vistani be Beloved By All and cheered whenever they arrive at a town is actually WAY MORE INACCURATE than the bad-guy vistani of the original Ravenloft.

It's erasure. Its like if they did a dread realm set in a historical parallel of 1930s Germany, would these assholes have had Stormtroopers hugging Jews on the street?!

I'm going to stay out of the main discussion, but it's probably worth mentioning that the Gypsy stereotype in the US is very different from the stereotype in Europe. In the US, it lacks most of the negative qualities. Gypsies are magical and wondrous and fun and mysterious and alluring. Which can tend to restrict them to certain roles and limit their development as fully-realized characters, but it's generally a positive image. Even the criminal elements are generally along the lines of charming rogues, rather than dirty thieves. In the Europe, with a real, recent, and remembered history of discrimination, it's quite a bit nastier. The Vistani are almost entirely derived from the American stereotypes.

Quote from: Pat on May 27, 2021, 07:40:52 PM
I'm going to stay out of the main discussion, but it's probably worth mentioning that the Gypsy stereotype in the US is very different from the stereotype in Europe. In the US, it lacks most of the negative qualities. Gypsies are magical and wondrous and fun and mysterious and alluring. Which can tend to restrict them to certain roles and limit their development as fully-realized characters, but it's generally a positive image. Even the criminal elements are generally along the lines of charming rogues, rather than dirty thieves. In the Europe, with a real, recent, and remembered history of discrimination, it's quite a bit nastier. The Vistani are almost entirely derived from the American stereotypes.

That's an interesting distinction. I usually think of American media depictions of gypsies. Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame pops right into my head. Even the sinister ones have an aspect of being the underdog, like the gypsies in Stephen King's Thinner.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 27, 2021, 07:44:01 PM

Quote from: Pat on May 27, 2021, 07:40:52 PM
I'm going to stay out of the main discussion, but it's probably worth mentioning that the Gypsy stereotype in the US is very different from the stereotype in Europe. In the US, it lacks most of the negative qualities. Gypsies are magical and wondrous and fun and mysterious and alluring. Which can tend to restrict them to certain roles and limit their development as fully-realized characters, but it's generally a positive image. Even the criminal elements are generally along the lines of charming rogues, rather than dirty thieves. In the Europe, with a real, recent, and remembered history of discrimination, it's quite a bit nastier. The Vistani are almost entirely derived from the American stereotypes.

That's an interesting distinction. I usually think of American media depictions of gypsies. Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame pops right into my head. Even the sinister ones have an aspect of being the underdog, like the gypsies in Stephen King's Thinner.

Remove the racial identity, and now I'm thinking of the Vistani as being traveling carnies. It's not really an improvment.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 27, 2021, 07:44:01 PM

Quote from: Pat on May 27, 2021, 07:40:52 PM
I'm going to stay out of the main discussion, but it's probably worth mentioning that the Gypsy stereotype in the US is very different from the stereotype in Europe. In the US, it lacks most of the negative qualities. Gypsies are magical and wondrous and fun and mysterious and alluring. Which can tend to restrict them to certain roles and limit their development as fully-realized characters, but it's generally a positive image. Even the criminal elements are generally along the lines of charming rogues, rather than dirty thieves. In the Europe, with a real, recent, and remembered history of discrimination, it's quite a bit nastier. The Vistani are almost entirely derived from the American stereotypes.

That's an interesting distinction. I usually think of American media depictions of gypsies. Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame pops right into my head. Even the sinister ones have an aspect of being the underdog, like the gypsies in Stephen King's Thinner.

The big difference is, except for a few areas (e.g. NYC), the US has no significant Roma populations that haven't been assimilated, and they've had little or no effect on influence on Hollywood or other popular depictions (King of the Gypsies is an exception). So the result is a romanticized ideal, instead of anything personal.

Speaking of the Dark Powers, I heard they eliminated Dark Powers checks from the new Ravenloft. Can anyone confirm or deny?

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 27, 2021, 08:05:53 PM
Speaking of the Dark Powers, I heard they eliminated Dark Powers checks from the new Ravenloft. Can anyone confirm or deny?

No, they weren't removed.

I think they were changed, in that somehow PCs could contact them. I may have read it wrong.

Yes, I bought the book; I enjoy it as an adventure setting, and maybe I'll use it someday with changes inspired by 2e.