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The Dumbest Thing in New Woke Ravenloft

Started by RPGPundit, May 09, 2021, 09:58:17 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Ghostmaker

Quote from: Jame Rowe on May 27, 2021, 08:14:31 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 27, 2021, 08:05:53 PM
Speaking of the Dark Powers, I heard they eliminated Dark Powers checks from the new Ravenloft. Can anyone confirm or deny?

No, they weren't removed.

I think they were changed, in that somehow PCs could contact them. I may have read it wrong.

Yes, I bought the book; I enjoy it as an adventure setting, and maybe I'll use it someday with changes inspired by 2e.
Uh... what? Why the fuck would the PCs be allowed to contact the metaphysical Dark Powers?

I'm not sure you understand what I meant. I mean the 'powers checks' where the PCs could gradually become corrupted by their actions.

jhkim

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 26, 2021, 11:08:14 PM
On the other hand, the way WoTC treats the Vistani in Van Richten is pretty well disastrous. Instead of humanizing them, they have been further DEHUMANIZED, just in the other direction and in a way that wrecks the setting. The Vistani are now heroic kind loving people all beyond any faults. They are a completely open society of hippie travelers who adopt random people to join their 'family' because blood and culture mean nothing to them, they are totally tolerant and respecting of diversity, and of course now people cheer them everywhere they go, villagers in shitholes throughout Ravenloft celebrate when the Vistani come, to show how all of Ravenloft knows that Diversity Is Our Strength. I heard that it even said that the Vistani that helped Strahd and who Ezmerelda (now an androgynous character called "Ez") was first associated with were actually NOT VISTANI AT ALL (because Vistani can't be evil), and were really fake con artists just pretending to be vistani (I swear to god, this sounds like a lie told by an 9 year old trying to make up an explanation for how something got broken that doesn't involve them).

So having the book now, I can check on this. The Vistani are covered on pages 176-177.

Claim: the Vistani who helped Strahd were fake because real Vistani can't be evil

QuoteMadame Eva. A controversial figure among the Vistani, Madame Eva made a bargain with the vampire Count Strahd von Zarovich. As a result, the evils that lurk in Barovia avoid Vistani. However, Madame Eva and her followers occasionally ally with the infamous count, giving them a sinister reputation. Madame Eva and her unique band of Vistani are detailed in the adventure Curse of Strahd.

Claim: the Vistani adopt random people as family and ignore blood and culture

QuoteMember of Vistani bands understand the disorienting, dangerous nature of the Mists better than anyone. Vistani caravans sometimes take pity on those who ask them for help, especially strangers from unfamiliar lands hopelessly searching for home, allowing such wayfarers to travel with them as far as the next settlement. In rare cases, a clan might even adopt a gracious, helpful traveller.

Characters who befriend or do right by members of a Vistani band might be allowed to take shelter or travel with a caravan for a time. But Vistani travellers quickly share tales of danger and of those who've wronged them with other caravans, and those who slight one Vistani often meet others who share a grudge against them.


While there is some connection between the claims and the text, the specifics seem like hyperbole at best.

BoxCrayonTales

That makes me wonder if different domains might treat vistani very differently. The isolated pseudo-European rural villages might be xenophobic (while hypocrisy making dealings anyway), whereas the more industrialized Americanesque towns and cities might be largely indifferent (unless they need to buy something).

Jame Rowe

#243
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 27, 2021, 08:21:29 PM
Quote from: Jame Rowe on May 27, 2021, 08:14:31 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 27, 2021, 08:05:53 PM
Speaking of the Dark Powers, I heard they eliminated Dark Powers checks from the new Ravenloft. Can anyone confirm or deny?

No, they weren't removed.

I think they were changed, in that somehow PCs could contact them. I may have read it wrong.

Yes, I bought the book; I enjoy it as an adventure setting, and maybe I'll use it someday with changes inspired by 2e.
Uh... what? Why the fuck would the PCs be allowed to contact the metaphysical Dark Powers?

I'm not sure you understand what I meant. I mean the 'powers checks' where the PCs could gradually become corrupted by their actions.

Again, I may have read that wrong. Edit: I may be thinking of them making a Warlock subclass which draws its power from the Dark Powers somehow.

And yes, I misunderstood; they have a variation on the Powers Check. I can't quote it since I don't have my copy in front of me, though.
Here for the games, not for it being woke or not.

jhkim

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 27, 2021, 08:05:53 PM
Speaking of the Dark Powers, I heard they eliminated Dark Powers checks from the new Ravenloft. Can anyone confirm or deny?

They've eliminated the percentile roll, and instead made the offer at DM's discretion.

Quote
Dark Bargains
...
At the DM's discretion, sinister forces might contact a character and offer them a Dark Gift in return for some service or future favor.
...
The DM might have a mysterious force intervene and offer a Dark Gift whenever a desperate or thematic instance presents itself, such as in any of the following cases:

  • A Darklord will negotiate with a party only if a character seals the deal by accepting their Dark Gift.
  • Time stops while a character is on the brink of death. A mysterious voice offers to save the character's life, but only if they accept the Dark Gift.
  • An experiment or magical accident goes wrong. The DM allows a character to accept a Dark Gift or some other peril as a result.
  • A character breaks a vow or suffers a curse (see chapter 4), gaining a Dark Gift as a result.
  • A character touches a mysterious amber sarcophagus, and a force within entreats them to accept its influence in the form of a Dark Gift.

The list of gifts is shorter but each is more detailed than the 2e dark gifts, and the gifts each have down sides, like "Touch of Death" where you automatically harm anyone you hold. Mechanically, that's not a big deal (you deal necrotic damage any time you grapple someone), but it's a pretty significant issue for a character's personal life.

Characters can also choose to have a Dark Gift upon character creation, but as mentioned, they all have their down sides.

Jame Rowe

Quote from: jhkim on May 27, 2021, 08:53:58 PM

They've eliminated the percentile roll, and instead made the offer at DM's discretion.

Quote
Dark Bargains
...
At the DM's discretion, sinister forces might contact a character and offer them a Dark Gift in return for some service or future favor.
...
The DM might have a mysterious force intervene and offer a Dark Gift whenever a desperate or thematic instance presents itself, such as in any of the following cases:

  • A Darklord will negotiate with a party only if a character seals the deal by accepting their Dark Gift.
  • Time stops while a character is on the brink of death. A mysterious voice offers to save the character's life, but only if they accept the Dark Gift.
  • An experiment or magical accident goes wrong. The DM allows a character to accept a Dark Gift or some other peril as a result.
  • A character breaks a vow or suffers a curse (see chapter 4), gaining a Dark Gift as a result.
  • A character touches a mysterious amber sarcophagus, and a force within entreats them to accept its influence in the form of a Dark Gift.

The list of gifts is shorter but each is more detailed than the 2e dark gifts, and the gifts each have down sides, like "Touch of Death" where you automatically harm anyone you hold. Mechanically, that's not a big deal (you deal necrotic damage any time you grapple someone), but it's a pretty significant issue for a character's personal life.

Characters can also choose to have a Dark Gift upon character creation, but as mentioned, they all have their down sides.

I don't mind this, it has the potential for good roleplaying.
Here for the games, not for it being woke or not.

Wrath of God

QuoteEven the criminal elements are generally along the lines of charming rogues, rather than dirty thieves. In the Europe, with a real, recent, and remembered history of discrimination, it's quite a bit nastier.

As European I would say - well Gypsy culture... is problematic to use SJW terms, and this sort of go both ways.
I think original Hugo novel, not Disney or Musical variants were sort of better in giving more nuanced vision of those.

QuoteEven the sinister ones have an aspect of being the underdog, like the gypsies in Stephen King's Thinner.

I mean... they are underdogs tbh, even if you want to have them as a villains - they will be villainous underdogs.

"Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon."

"And I will strike down upon thee
With great vengeance and furious anger"


"Molti Nemici, Molto Onore"

Ghostmaker

Quote from: jhkim on May 27, 2021, 08:53:58 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 27, 2021, 08:05:53 PM
Speaking of the Dark Powers, I heard they eliminated Dark Powers checks from the new Ravenloft. Can anyone confirm or deny?

They've eliminated the percentile roll, and instead made the offer at DM's discretion.

Quote
Dark Bargains
...
At the DM's discretion, sinister forces might contact a character and offer them a Dark Gift in return for some service or future favor.
...
The DM might have a mysterious force intervene and offer a Dark Gift whenever a desperate or thematic instance presents itself, such as in any of the following cases:

  • A Darklord will negotiate with a party only if a character seals the deal by accepting their Dark Gift.
  • Time stops while a character is on the brink of death. A mysterious voice offers to save the character's life, but only if they accept the Dark Gift.
  • An experiment or magical accident goes wrong. The DM allows a character to accept a Dark Gift or some other peril as a result.
  • A character breaks a vow or suffers a curse (see chapter 4), gaining a Dark Gift as a result.
  • A character touches a mysterious amber sarcophagus, and a force within entreats them to accept its influence in the form of a Dark Gift.

The list of gifts is shorter but each is more detailed than the 2e dark gifts, and the gifts each have down sides, like "Touch of Death" where you automatically harm anyone you hold. Mechanically, that's not a big deal (you deal necrotic damage any time you grapple someone), but it's a pretty significant issue for a character's personal life.

Characters can also choose to have a Dark Gift upon character creation, but as mentioned, they all have their down sides.
Wow. Just wow. That's SO not the same thing.


Rob Necronomicon

One thing that gives me a slight sliver of hope is that Ravensoft has been getting less than glowing reviews from 'some' of the youtubers that you'd least suspect.

Of course, all the big youtubers are licking the arse of WoTC but that's to be expected.

oggsmash

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 27, 2021, 07:45:48 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 27, 2021, 07:44:01 PM
Quote from: Pat on May 27, 2021, 07:40:52 PM
I'm going to stay out of the main discussion, but it's probably worth mentioning that the Gypsy stereotype in the US is very different from the stereotype in Europe. In the US, it lacks most of the negative qualities. Gypsies are magical and wondrous and fun and mysterious and alluring. Which can tend to restrict them to certain roles and limit their development as fully-realized characters, but it's generally a positive image. Even the criminal elements are generally along the lines of charming rogues, rather than dirty thieves. In the Europe, with a real, recent, and remembered history of discrimination, it's quite a bit nastier. The Vistani are almost entirely derived from the American stereotypes.

That's an interesting distinction. I usually think of American media depictions of gypsies. Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame pops right into my head. Even the sinister ones have an aspect of being the underdog, like the gypsies in Stephen King's Thinner.
Remove the racial identity, and now I'm thinking of the Vistani as being traveling carnies. It's not really an improvment.

   This made me actually burst into laughter.   I have to agree, travelling carnies are the sketchiest bunch I think I have ever laid eyes on.  The creep factor of them at a state fair is only out done by understanding why there are so many cops posted at the restrooms of a state fair (here I assume the situation is similar, since many states use the same carnies to run their fairs).

robertliguori

Quote from: oggsmash on May 28, 2021, 08:12:06 AM
This made me actually burst into laughter.   I have to agree, travelling carnies are the sketchiest bunch I think I have ever laid eyes on.  The creep factor of them at a state fair is only out done by understanding why there are so many cops posted at the restrooms of a state fair (here I assume the situation is similar, since many states use the same carnies to run their fairs).

Now imagine carnies in a world where, e.g., lycanthropy exists. The thing about Vistani being insular is that if a band of colorfully-dressed strangers pulls up out of town, you have no idea if they're actual definitely-not-Roma-analogue heroic Vistani, or monsters wearing their skins.

And you can, I think, get into some really interesting and proper horror background stuff here.  Imagine a campaign against a leveled, intelligent werewolf with just Disguise Self and a large pack of confederates, who weaponized the openness and tolerance of communities by coming into them in the guise of a stranger and exploiting that hospitality, not just to get food and turn townsfolk, but specifically so that when the PCs came up hunting him, the townsfolk would slam doors in the PC's faces, as the second, third, and forth groups of "heroes" were all more werewolves who showed up, politely bought out any silver that the town had, and spent several nights being 'on watch' and quietly removing or turning any unusually-capable villagers before being made and fleeing into the night?

And, in a world where Asshole Werewolf exists, and has specifically used the trick of impersonating a Vistani caravan to get a large strike force of wolves near a town before having them all turn and attack, specifically because he resents the Vistani for being able to leave and finds them getting lynched by angry townsfolk hilarious, how many times does a Vistani caravan need to get turned away from a town with violence before some of the Vistani do start resorting to thievery to feed themselves and keep their wagons repaired?

You could tell an entire goddamn campaign about one goddamn werewolf that would challenge a group of PCs to actually fight against bigotry and stereotypes.  But in order to do that, you'd need to acknowledge that they exist, how they can start and get amplified, and how they can be, not just random Structural things emanating from anonymous Society, but how hatred of a group can come from a specific origin after being called up and amplified for a specific reason, and then can live long after that unless a lot of people work really hard and really selflessly to make things better.

Bedrockbrendan

One thing worth mentioning about the Vistani in old Ravenloft is the whole thing about them being viewed with suspicion, was not an endorsement of viewing vagabonds with suspicion. It was a product of the world, which was inhabited by superstitious people who could commit evil out of fear (the same people who might exile, or even burn someone because they are an elf). They even played into this with Van Richten, the setting's greatest hero, who had a clear flaw in his deep prejudice towards Vistani (based around his background and how his son became a vampire if I recall). It was often handled in a campy way, but it came out of this idea that fear and prejudice were connected in the setting.

Armchair Gamer

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 28, 2021, 01:08:40 PM
One thing worth mentioning about the Vistani in old Ravenloft is the whole thing about them being viewed with suspicion, was not an endorsement of viewing vagabonds with suspicion. It was a product of the world, which was inhabited by superstitious people who could commit evil out of fear (the same people who might exile, or even burn someone because they are an elf). They even played into this with Van Richten, the setting's greatest hero, who had a clear flaw in his deep prejudice towards Vistani (based around his background and how his son became a vampire if I recall). It was often handled in a campy way, but it came out of this idea that fear and prejudice were connected in the setting.

   I think that part of the issue is that for many of the people in charge, prejudice is not just a flaw or a sin--it is The Unforgivable Sin, which cannot be excused or portrayed as anything but the blackest evil.

Habitual Gamer

Quote from: jhkim on May 27, 2021, 08:23:15 PM
While there is some connection between the claims and the text, the specifics seem like hyperbole at best.

"Quiet you!  Can't you see I'm protecting my games!"

I admit, I haven't done a fine-toothed witch hunt for wrong think text, but it really reminds me of classical vistani presentations.  Except if they were previously "morally gray, with a shade of black" now they're "morally gray, with a shade of white".  Maybe.  Either way, not enough to be worth clutching pearls over.  I remember worse ethnic sensitivity nonsense in the Nightmare Lands sourcebox, and that was pre-3ed, pre-internet, pre-constant universal outrage over everything.   

jhkim

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 28, 2021, 01:08:40 PM
One thing worth mentioning about the Vistani in old Ravenloft is the whole thing about them being viewed with suspicion, was not an endorsement of viewing vagabonds with suspicion. It was a product of the world, which was inhabited by superstitious people who could commit evil out of fear (the same people who might exile, or even burn someone because they are an elf). They even played into this with Van Richten, the setting's greatest hero, who had a clear flaw in his deep prejudice towards Vistani (based around his background and how his son became a vampire if I recall). It was often handled in a campy way, but it came out of this idea that fear and prejudice were connected in the setting.

So, comparing the original boxed set (1990 "Realms of Terror") and the new Van Richten's guide. I don't see anything explicit about anti-Vistani prejudice in the original book, either in the Gypsies section or in the write up for Van Richten. This is the Van Richten entry:

QuoteBackground: Originally a native of Darkon, Van Richten was a doctor who healed without magic. He had little skill as a surgeon, relying more on herbal medicines. Gypsies kidnapped his son, and took the boy out of Darkon. Van Richten pursued them, committing everything to regain his son. (Crossing the border did not reveal any "true past" to Van Richten. Darkon only affects the memories of characters who are born elsewhere.)

Eventually Van Richten caught up with his son--what remained of him. The gypsies had sold the boy to a vampire in Richemulot, who wanted a young, pure companion. Newly undead, the boy begged Van Richten to destroy him. He told his father how to accomplish the deed, and Van Richten released his son from torment.

Current Sketch: Since his son's destruction, Van Richten has hunted vampires and other supernatural creatures throughout Ravenloft. He has never attempted to destroy the lord of any domain. When not actively in pursuit of a creature, he runs an "Herbalist's Shop" in Mordentshire.

Dr. Van Richten is wise and well-educated, and know much about supernatural lore. He will not allow an innocent person to be hurt, perhaps even if it means sacrificing himself. Fortunately, he has not faced this fatal decision to date.

It doesn't mention the flaw of prejudice you mention. Perhaps it is mentioned as a flaw in one of the other books? I also don't see anything in the Gypsies section about prejudice against them.

QuoteGypsies

The gypsies of Ravenloft--or Vistani as they call themselves--are a mysterious people. They wander the lands and travel the Mists, independent of the bonds which shackle lords to their domains and natives to their dreary, oppressed existence. In some ways they are the most power characters in Ravenloft, because in spirit, the gypsies are free.
...
Gypsies have little to fear from the rules of Ravenloft's domains. Most lords tolerate them, and many are in awe of their powers. The gypsies' ability to travel the Mists and foretell the future commands great respect. Some lords forge agreements with the tribes. Count Strahd von Zarovich, for example, forged an alliance with the gypsy Madame Eva many years ago. He gave her a potion of immunity to his choking fog. Today, nearly all Vistani know this formula. They charge travellers for a drink of this potion and then ferry their customers across Barovia. In return for the Count's cooperation, Vistani inform Strahd of the activities in other domains, and act as spies for him in his own.
...
When Gypsies Tell Lies

Every gypsy in Ravenloft has the potential to tell the future accurately. Not every gypsy can, however. Vistani are natural con artists, and Ravenloft is full of fake seers who eagerly lighten the purses of gullible travelers.

Now, it's certainly possible in the original Ravenloft to have a story about anti-gypsy prejudice -- but that's going beyond what's written in the book. It seems just as possible to have a story about anti-Vistani prejudice in the 5e version.