All this time spent re-naming this and that is wasted.

Pundit is doing none of this nonsense for his games. And Wotzi actually knows he exists...

If Wotzi decides to lawfare you, re-naming Dex to Agility will not save you. They will lawfare you with the claim that you are violating the "creative expression" of their D&D rules set with your totally not-D&D Clone.

The only real worry is the handful of Wotzi specific trademarked terms.

It increasingly seems that everything else is going to go to court.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 21, 2023, 05:23:54 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 21, 2023, 02:38:02 PM
Or go with a more broad type of classes:

The Muscle
The Brain
The Spirit
(Something for the Thief?)
The Personality

Where you define them broadly in terms of what they get and the player builds them from the skill, armor, etc lists.

My solution was actually to split what D&D calls a class into two parts; Background (all the non-combat traits) and Class (all the combat traits) and you pick one of each.

The Backgrounds are; Arcanist, Aristocrat, Artisan, Barbarian, Commoner, Entertainer, Military, Outlaw, Religious, and Traveler.

The Classes are; Fighter, Mastermind, Mechanist, Mystic, Theurge, and Wizard.

Each of the classes has sub-elements to further define them;

Fighters have Fighting Style, Fighting Focus and Combat Path;
- Styles: Strong, Swift or Berserker
- Focus: Daring, Steady, Tactical or Wary
- Path: Brigand, Captain, Defender, Disabler, Ravager, Sentinel or Striker

Masterminds have Fighting Focus and Combat Path;
- Focus: Daring, Tactical or Wary
- Path: Captain, Disabler or Striker

Mechanists have Mechanist Focus and Spellcasting Path;
- Focus: Big Lug, Monkeywrencher, Mad Genius, Tireless Inventor or Troubleshooter
- Path: Abjurer, Benedictor, Empowered, Interdictor, Maledictor, Manifester or Summoner

Mystics have Inner Spirit and Spellcasting Path;
- Spirit: Clever, Enduring, Logical, Potent or Swift
- Path: Abjurer, Benedictor, Empowered, Interdictor, Maledictor, Manifester or Summoner

Theurges have Astral Focus and Spellcasting Path;
- Focus: Faithful, Martyr, Militant or Zealous
- Path: Abjurer, Benedictor, Empowered, Interdictor, Maledictor, Manifester or Summoner

Wizards have Wizard's Focus and Spellcasting Path;
- Focus: Lore Wizard, Social Wizard or War Wizard
- Path: Abjurer, Benedictor, Empowered, Interdictor, Maledictor, Manifester or Summoner

By mixing and matching background, class and their subfeatures you can pretty much build any of the D&D classes you wanted, but because each separate element is it's own thing instead of pre-assembled, it's not falling under WotC's concept stack (you can also build a bunch more concepts quite easily).

So depending on edition;
Bard (non-spellcasting): Entertainer Mastermind (daring captain)
Bard (Spellcasting): Entertainer Wizard (social benedictor)
Barbarian (non-ragey): Barbarian Fighter (strong wary striker)
Barbarian (rage): Barbarian Fighter (steady berserker ravager)
Cleric: Religious Theurge (militant, any path but traditionally benedictor)
Druid: Religious Mystic (any spirit, any path, but traditionally summoner)
Fighter: Military Fighter (strong, tactical, any path, but traditionally striker or defender)
Monk (traditional): Religious Fighter (swift wary disabler or striker)
Monk (wuxia): Religious Mystic (swift empowered or manifester)
Paladin (traditional): Religious Fighter (strong daring defender)
Paladin (smity modern): Military Theurge (militant abjurer)
Ranger: Barbarian or Traveler Fighter (strong or swift disabler or striker)
Rogue: Outlaw Fighter (swift daring or wary brigand)
Sorcerer: Arcanist Mystic (clever Interdictor or Maledictor)
Warlock: Arcanist Theurge (any focus maledictor)
Wizard: Arcanist Wizard (lore or war, any path, but default Interdictor).

Mythras Classic Fantasy uses a skill-based system. Classes are translated as packages of skills. I think that's more elegant, altho I definitely think skill-based systems have their problems. I like Risus Cliches because they exist in a space between skill-based and class-based systems.

Your take also vaguely reminds me of 4e. I think 4e had a good idea by separating roles from power sources, but where they screwed up was trying to force old classes into molds they probably were unsuitable for, as opposed to just using the pure roles and power sources.

I think Spheres of Power really improves on this by giving a more toolkit take on classes. Rather than picking wizard, sorcerer, druid or whatever, you pick a class/role like pure caster or mageknight gish, pick a casting tradition that provides the benefits/drawbacks of being a wizard or druid or whatever, and then specialize in what magic effects you cast from their listing of spheres of influence. This lets you replicate the traditional classes while also being able to easily create new ones to suit your setting. This also helps to cut down on class bloat.

I personally don't think Wotc has a leg to stand on vis a vis Lulu or DTRPG/OBS. According to Motley Fool (an investing website), MtG and D&D account for 72% of Hasbreo's profit, and 20% of their revenue. If DTRPG/OBS were to take down all OGL/WotC stuff (and let WotC handle DMsGuild, never mind if they even bother to give them the files or database or whatever) it would RUIN WotC in mere days, definitely enough to show up on a shareholder's report.

Hasbro is not the monolithic, unlimited wealth-level threat everyone seems to think it is, a big bad lawsuit would cost them badly.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 21, 2023, 08:13:21 PM
Mythras Classic Fantasy uses a skill-based system. Classes are translated as packages of skills. I think that's more elegant, altho I definitely think skill-based systems have their problems. I like Risus Cliches because they exist in a space between skill-based and class-based systems.

Your take also vaguely reminds me of 4e. I think 4e had a good idea by separating roles from power sources, but where they screwed up was trying to force old classes into molds they probably were unsuitable for, as opposed to just using the pure roles and power sources.

Part of my testing crew were my half-dozen godkids who for the bulk of that testin were ages 10-14. Part of what led me to the nested choice classes was observing how they interacted with various setups and that one was the easiest for those not already familiar with rpgs.

Pick a Kind. It probably has another choice to make as part of it (ex. what element an Eldritch is associated with).

Pick a background and pick three of six skills and a couple of boons from its list.

Pick one of six classes, then pick one focus option and one of the paths.

There were thousands of combinations, but each choice point had only a relative handful of options to choose from.

Also from my experience, even kids have a pretty good idea of what kind/race and background they want beforehand so a clear summary so they get the one that best matches their idea actually solves the "too many choices at once" problem pretty handily... classes ("how you fight") were where option paralysis most set in so that is where the nesting of choices got used a lot.

The need to have the setting be something my godkids' parents would find acceptable for them to play definitely played a role in shaping what I refer to as a "superversive" (the opposite of subversion) setting with an established monotheistic faith alongside the typical fantasy polytheistic ones (which as my setting notes is for portraying virtuous pagan heroes such as those in Greco-Roman, Norse and Egyptian myths and legends) and the practice of Necromancy and Demon worship portrayed as absolutely evil and damaging to the free will of their users (such that, by default, they are available only to NPCs in the default setting... though they're balanced with other PC options if you need them for a different setting with different metaphysical assumptions.

And yes, the similarities to 4E aren't entirely an accident. The project began as an attempt at a 4E retroclone, but my design principle of "question everything" and "be willing to kill sacred cows in favor of best practices" quickly resulted in a system that, other than a few conceptual elements (starting a bit more powerful, capping the upper levels of power and points of light as a useful sandbox structure) bore almost no resemblance to 4E at all.

I could fill a book chronicling all the changes made based on player feedback that made it the system it is today. Being humble enough to admit I was wrong about certain concepts was a tough pill, but made my system better overall.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 21, 2023, 09:16:04 PM
The need to have the setting be something my godkids' parents would find acceptable for them to play definitely played a role in shaping what I refer to as a "superversive" (the opposite of subversion) setting with an established monotheistic faith alongside the typical fantasy polytheistic ones (which as my setting notes is for portraying virtuous pagan heroes such as those in Greco-Roman, Norse and Egyptian myths and legends) and the practice of Necromancy and Demon worship portrayed as absolutely evil and damaging to the free will of their users (such that, by default, they are available only to NPCs in the default setting... though they're balanced with other PC options if you need them for a different setting with different metaphysical assumptions.

I've found myself gravitating towards a Church of Sol Invictus to patronize clerics, monks (western flavored here) and paladins in my setting. I've done similar for other iconic class concepts: wizards and mageknights are students of Hermeticism, witches and rangers (cunning folk) are devotees of Hecate and other former pagan deities who were syncretized as church saints, warlocks make pacts with the Devil, barbarians and druids are practitioners of the Old Faith, sorcerers aren't considered safe/sanctioned unless they've been baptized, artificers are a fairly new development from the Duchies of Vinci (think steampunk renaissance Italy), etc. Very Eurofantasy.

Quote from: FingerRod on January 21, 2023, 04:27:45 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 21, 2023, 03:12:05 PM
"Nazi Vixens from the Moon the TTRPG, Mechanics CC By WotC"

I seriously doubt anyone will do that. The safest creators will be those who make games without using anyone else's OGL.

For example, Kevin Crawford uses the traditional six ability scores. If Hasbro were to take Kevin to court and lose, it would be game over. While Hasbro has nearly unlimited resources, the also have more to risk. Kevin is untouchable. The more who recognize this, the better.

And bro, if you somehow see this as an attack it is all in your head. This is just a conversation and I'm interested to hear your thoughts. If I didn't value you're position I would bother quoting you.

I'm not saying someone WILL do it, but the risk of someone using their expression of the rules to write a wrong-bad game and be forced to put the attribution exists.

Given the propensity off the woke to find shit to be offended by the chances of this happening approach certainty.

I take their expression, I write a game, it has all the classic tropes, 100% Evil monsters, slavers, etc as enemies for the Players. Well I'm now practically Hitler, since my book has the attribution to wotzi by the magic of guilt by association now wotzi is guilty too.

Quote from: FingerRod on January 21, 2023, 04:27:45 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 21, 2023, 03:12:05 PM
"Nazi Vixens from the Moon the TTRPG, Mechanics CC By WotC"

I seriously doubt anyone will do that. The safest creators will be those who make games without using anyone else's OGL.

Well, if someone were to make such a game, it'd probably be very wise of them to do so secretly, then release it under a "dummy lable" so it can't be affiliated with their more serious work. The alternative is to make it an obvious satire, with plenty of jokes aimed at the "anti-hero" PCs. The only difference between playing satirical Nazis and a band of rampaging orcs or goblins is the stigma attached to the former. Ironically, the German National Socialist party receives far more stigma than any other Socialist/Communist party, despite the latter having a far higher body-count (and a much less functional economic system).

For this reason, I wonder if "Stalinists From The Moon" wouldn't be a better approach. It would still generate the same Reeee-sponse from woke lefties, but for a different (and perhaps more poignant) reason. If done cleverly or subtlely enough, the satire may even go missed and get lefties to actually purchase the product (they aren't exactly known for being critical thinkers, after all).

Quote from: Jaeger on January 21, 2023, 07:14:37 PM
All this time spent re-naming this and that is wasted.

Pundit is doing none of this nonsense for his games. And Wotzi actually knows he exists...

If Wotzi decides to lawfare you, re-naming Dex to Agility will not save you. They will lawfare you with the claim that you are violating the "creative expression" of their D&D rules set with your totally not-D&D Clone.

The only real worry is the handful of Wotzi specific trademarked terms.

It increasingly seems that everything else is going to go to court.

This is correct (I teach copyright & trademark law in the UK).

Quote from: Effete on January 22, 2023, 02:44:42 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on January 21, 2023, 04:27:45 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 21, 2023, 03:12:05 PM
"Nazi Vixens from the Moon the TTRPG, Mechanics CC By WotC"

I seriously doubt anyone will do that. The safest creators will be those who make games without using anyone else's OGL.

Well, if someone were to make such a game, it'd probably be very wise of them to do so secretly, then release it under a "dummy lable" so it can't be affiliated with their more serious work. The alternative is to make it an obvious satire, with plenty of jokes aimed at the "anti-hero" PCs. The only difference between playing satirical Nazis and a band of rampaging orcs or goblins is the stigma attached to the former. Ironically, the German National Socialist party receives far more stigma than any other Socialist/Communist party, despite the latter having a far higher body-count (and a much less functional economic system).

For this reason, I wonder if "Stalinists From The Moon" wouldn't be a better approach. It would still generate the same Reeee-sponse from woke lefties, but for a different (and perhaps more poignant) reason. If done cleverly or subtlely enough, the satire may even go missed and get lefties to actually purchase the product (they aren't exactly known for being critical thinkers, after all).

A "moon commies" game already exists, albeit as a parody. It's described as follows:
"Star Marx is a french roleplaying game for beginners or more experienced players who don't take themselves seriously, from 7 to 777 years old, in the universe of the famous Travel Guide of the Adventurer of Imaginary Worlds, Star Marx!

Star Marx is an original and parodic science fiction universe where the Russians won the Cold War and conquered space."

Quote from: Effete on January 22, 2023, 02:44:42 AM
For this reason, I wonder if "Stalinists From The Moon" wouldn't be a better approach. It would still generate the same Reeee-sponse from woke lefties, but for a different (and perhaps more poignant) reason. If done cleverly or subtlely enough, the satire may even go missed and get lefties to actually purchase the product (they aren't exactly known for being critical thinkers, after all).

Before it became the grand sprawling thing that is the Grand Tour universe, back in the 80s, Ben Bova wrote a novel called Privateers, about a future where the USSR controlled space travel, and the protagonist of the book was a sort of proto-Elon Musk-ish swashbuckling hyper-capitalist determined to break their stranglehold on the world.

... I really, really want to make that into an RPG setting, now.

Quote from: Bruwulf on January 22, 2023, 08:26:09 AM

Quote from: Effete on January 22, 2023, 02:44:42 AM
For this reason, I wonder if "Stalinists From The Moon" wouldn't be a better approach. It would still generate the same Reeee-sponse from woke lefties, but for a different (and perhaps more poignant) reason. If done cleverly or subtlely enough, the satire may even go missed and get lefties to actually purchase the product (they aren't exactly known for being critical thinkers, after all).

Before it became the grand sprawling thing that is the Grand Tour universe, back in the 80s, Ben Bova wrote a story about a future where the USSR controlled space travel, and the protagonist of the book was a sort of proto-Elon Musk-ish swashbuckling hyper-capitalist determined to break their stranglehold on the world.

... I really, really want to make that into an RPG setting, now.

That does sound light-years cooler!
I'll need to find that story.

Quote from: Effete on January 22, 2023, 08:31:09 AM

Quote from: Bruwulf on January 22, 2023, 08:26:09 AM

Quote from: Effete on January 22, 2023, 02:44:42 AM
For this reason, I wonder if "Stalinists From The Moon" wouldn't be a better approach. It would still generate the same Reeee-sponse from woke lefties, but for a different (and perhaps more poignant) reason. If done cleverly or subtlely enough, the satire may even go missed and get lefties to actually purchase the product (they aren't exactly known for being critical thinkers, after all).

Before it became the grand sprawling thing that is the Grand Tour universe, back in the 80s, Ben Bova wrote a story about a future where the USSR controlled space travel, and the protagonist of the book was a sort of proto-Elon Musk-ish swashbuckling hyper-capitalist determined to break their stranglehold on the world.

... I really, really want to make that into an RPG setting, now.

That does sound light-years cooler!
I'll need to find that story.

I went back and edited my post once I looked up the title, since I forgot it, but it's "Privateers", by Ben Bova.

Quote from: Bruwulf on January 22, 2023, 08:31:52 AM
I went back and edited my post once I looked up the title, since I forgot it, but it's "Privateers", by Ben Bova.

Thank you!

Oh, man! It even has a very marketable title aleady! "Privateers of Red Space" or some such.

Took the survey and thanked them for identifying as a business not wanting my patronage. Nice and simple.

I was surprised that there were more than a few people on the ENW and TBP sites who are aligned with a similar mindset as those of us here. That having been said, I wonder if there might be WotC/Hasbro plants...

One turd in particular on ENW (FormerLurker) seems to be simping pretty damn hard for the new "They'll release core mechanics" announcement, as well as "it could be worse" messaging.

I'm hoping that no one buys into this type of thinking, especially the smallest 3pp who have the most to lose.