Greetings!

Yes, I love Domain-level games, both as a player and as a DM. I have DM'd several Domain-level campaigns for many years. They are fantastic, and great fun! There are so many nuances and cool elements that enter the campaign and the player's consciousness *at that point*--that aren't really present before that point. Politics, religion, influence, grand-scale warfare, recruiting armies, majestic tournaments, important diplomatic councils and meetings, crushing rebellions, romance is a huge element, vast civic projects, building castles, aqueducts and coliseums, enormous monuments, infiltrating new, foreign religions, and on and on.

I have found that most players love the romance, epic warfare, politics, and grand diplomacy--but are less enthused about the economics and bookkeeping. I have also found a few players that dearly love boring down into the fine economic details of various industries and regions of their domains--but they are a distinct minority.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Would it make sense to take inspiration from a PC game like Crusader Kings II, which on the surface looks like most strategy games but more often than not plays like a RPG in that you're more concerned with the people and politics compared to say Civilization which is more about resource management.

I'm thinking that the key to success for using any Domain Mechanics is to keep them out of sight of the players! They may work well 'behind the scenes' but they can harm immersion and get in the way of player identification with their PC as a person in the world.

Quote from: TimothyWestwind;1127255Would it make sense to take inspiration from a PC game like Crusader Kings II, which on the surface looks like most strategy games but more often than not plays like a RPG in that you're more concerned with the people and politics compared to say Civilization which is more about resource management.

Most players definitely prefer the political stuff to number crunching. And it has made for some fantastic campaigns, like my Wilderlands one where a barbarian rose from nothing (1st level) to meld together a disparate group of factions into a mighty empire - only to swiftly lose it again.

Quote from: SHARK;1127251There are so many nuances and cool elements that enter the campaign and the player's consciousness *at that point*--that aren't really present before that point. SHARK

That's an interesting point. In the early-mid 70s, my group were wargamers, then in the mid-late 70s we got into rpgs, still wargaming I suppose, but attracted to the personal, immediate investment in character that came with that. By the early 80s, in this one campaign that got that far, we were high level and playing the domain game. High level stuff. We could get others to swing the swords instead of us.

Basically we had gone full circle, and we were once more commanders playing a wargame campaign. And yet, after years of taking our characters up from 1st level nobodies, with everything we had been through, we were fighting with much more context, so much more invested in our success as commanders, so much more invested in the defeat of our enemies, than I ever remember from playing wargames before rpgs came along.

So yeah, even if it looked like an old-fashioned wargame campaign, the rpg "domain game" felt like so much more because of everything that led up to it.

Quote from: S'mon;1127257I'm thinking that the key to success for using any Domain Mechanics is to keep them out of sight of the players! They may work well 'behind the scenes' but they can harm immersion and get in the way of player identification with their PC as a person in the world.

Exactly my thoughts.

I'm not a big fan of Domain play, but when I've had PCs acquire territory and assets, I keep the bookkeeping to bare minimum. Definitely used the Traveller charts for merchant aspects of the game, and even then, it was NPCs who handled the tasks, as the PCs were busy with hero/leader stuff.

Has no one mentioned the old Birthright setting?  That was probably the best Domain scale campaign that I have played with.

Quote from: Shasarak;1127276Has no one mentioned the old Birthright setting?  That was probably the best Domain scale campaign that I have played with.

Not really familiar with it, but I just looked it up. Seems like it is a domain-scale game from the get-go, rather than a domain-scale phase that you eventually work your way up to from being a schmo, is that right?

Quote from: Zirunel;1127277Not really familiar with it, but I just looked it up. Seems like it is a domain-scale game from the get-go, rather than a domain-scale phase that you eventually work your way up to from being a schmo, is that right?

Pretty much, it trys to combine the base DnD game with Domain rules where you build up your influence within a Province month by month.

Quote from: Shasarak;1127276Has no one mentioned the old Birthright setting?  That was probably the best Domain scale campaign that I have played with.

Quote from: Chris24601;1126843Birthright kinda did okay with splitting it up into basically Law (Fighters), Commerce (Rogues), Sources (Wizards) and Religion (Clerics) who could all share the same realm, but it was very contingent upon players all agreeing to play certain classes so as not to actually compete with one another. It also starts to fall apart if you try to port it into later editions with different assumptions and additional classes that don't quite fit the Fighter, Thief, Cleric, Magic-User paradigm.

It's okay if you're into OSR with a four-player all human party consisting of a cleric, fighter, magic-user and thief so they can all share and assist in growing the same territory, but in practice I found any other combination and/or more players tended to result in one or more players left out of the domain-side of play entirely since the nature of Regency in the setting was magical in nature (as in, if you didn't have magic blood you couldn't rule at all, how effectively you could rule was based on the strength of your magic blood and the main way to increase the power of your magic blood was conquer others with magic blood and take their power for yourself) and didn't really allow for power sharing of the same assets.

In essence, a second member of any of the four main class types in 2e was automatically competition and holding each other back from reaching their full potential.

That's probably one of the reasons it remained largely niche in terms of popularity relative to other domain management systems... it was a little TOO tied to its setting to be functional in more generic campaigns, especially later editions when classes started to diverge a more from the cleric, fighter, magic-user, thief class groupings of 2e.

As two 5e examples, where do a Celestial Pact Warlock or Eldritch Knight Fighter fit into those rules? Is the warlock a wizard because the default class is arcane or a cleric because the powers are granted directly by a celestial power like a cleric? It the eldritch knight a fighter because he can use military arms and armor or a wizard because he's also an arcane spellcaster? And again... the fundamental conceit of magic blood is a lousy fit for most non-Birthright settings.

Ironically, one of the better sets of Domain Rules I've ever used for a fantasy game was an adaption of some tables for the second edition of the Mechwarrior RPG that had all sorts of conflict related event tables that the GM was supposed to roll on for events that would occur six months down the line in order to provide time to weave rumors and other setup elements into the campaign (ex. if you rolled for a war breaking out on a given world... or kingdom if adapted to a fantasy setting... there would be rumors of unusual troop movements or the target would be looking to hire mercenaries to bolster their defenses against what their spies say is coming). Sure there was no magic in the results, but particular bits of high tech are easy to redefine as magic for purposes of setup (example, intercepted HPG transmissions becomes signs and portents seen by diviners or messages from the gods to the faithful... discovery of a LostTech cache is instead the discovery of a previously unknown ruin filled with monsters and treasures and so forth).

Taking some good ideas from ACKS (which is heavily inspired by BECMI system), here's what I have currently:


Manors & Domains
High level Fighter Lords (level 9+) can extract 1gp/month from their domain, 12gp/year per resident in a freehold; for other rulers the typical income is 10gp/year gross income for a typical borderland manor.

New Manors
Initially attract freeholders on a manor equal to 'Max Henchmen' score x10 and if there's plenty of land grow as per table below. Of course diplomacy and conquest can enable rapid growth...
For random potential areas optionally roll 3d4 for the likely gp/year reflecting resources; Fighter Lords add +2 to the roll. 10gp/year assumes a near optimum environment.

Lord's CHA: Initial Freeholders (Manor)
3-4:  10; Growth -3%
5-6: 20; Growth -2%
7-8: 30; Growth -1%
9-11: 40; Growth +0%
12-13: 50; Growth +0%
14: 60; Growth +0.5%
15: 70; Growth +1.5%
16: 80; Growth +2%
17: 100; Growth +3%
18: 150; Growth +4%
19+: 200; Growth +5%
A typical manor in settled farmlands is 640 acres, or 1 square mile. Maximum manor size in borderlands is roughly 2 miles diameter (one 2 mile hex), or just over 3 square miles, of which no more than 1 square mile is likely farmland. Exceptions apply to rulers of exceptional charisma - see below. Otherwise new manors must be created to administer the growing population.

Manor Current Population & Base Growth Rate (annual)
Under 20       +30%
20                 +25%
40                 +20%
60                 +15%
80                 +10%
100                 +5%
125                 +4%
150                 +3%
200                 +2%
300                 +1% requires 1.5 square miles farmland
400                 +0% " 2 sq m"
500                  -1% " 2.5 sq m"
600                  -2% " 3 sq m"
700                  -3% " 3.5 sq m"
800                  -4% " 4 sq m"
900+                -5% " 4.5 sq m"

A sub-infeudinated manor must have a lord or thane, preferably a henchman/retainer of the higher lord.

Resource Investment
For every 200gp spent on resource development, a manor will attract 1d10 more people. Growth limits still apply.

Typical Domain Costs
A typical domain has gross income of 10gp/person/year and expenses of 75% of income, leaving a net income of 2.5gp/person/year.
Garrison: 20% (civilised)-30% (borderland)-40% (wilderness) of income (2gp-4gp/person/year)
Stronghold Upkeep: 5% of stronghold cost per year; typical strongholds cost = annual domain income x2 (civilised) x3 (borderland)  x4 (wilderness), so typically 10%-20% of income, 1-2gp/person/year
Salt Tax: 20% of gross income to higher lord, 2gp/person/year
Tithes: 0% (wilderness) -5% (borderland)-10% (civilised) of gross income to local churches/temples, 0gp-1gp/person/year
Festivals & Alms: 5% of income, 0.5gp/person/year

Urban Investment
It takes 1 year to create a new settlement at a suitable locale. Once created, the settlement maximum population figure is added to the maximum population figures above, so eg +30% annual growth requires a population fewer than 20 above the numbers below. Furthermore, after 1 year population is attracted to develop a number of surrounding rural manors, which may potentially be ruled and taxed.
Investment  Additional Maximum Population Settlement Area/Surrounding Manors (of 1-3 sq m)
 10,000gp      +1000 Small Town  (0.1 square mile)/6
 25,000gp      +3000 Town            (0.25 square mile)/12
 75,000gp      +10000 Small City (0.5 square mile)/24
200,000gp     +25000 Large City (1 square mile)/50
625,000gp     +100000 Metropolis (2 square miles)/100
2,500,000gp  +500000 Grand Metropolis (10 square miles)/200

Armies & War
Typical resources available to a ruler are:
1. The standing garrison forces of his domain and those of his vassals.
2. Any available mercenary companies. Short term hire is normally for 1 fighting season (3 months); with the first month in advance - pre-equipped and trained units hired for war cost 10 times standard soldier garrison wages, eg 40gp/month for heavy foot, 120gp/month for heavy horse - this does however cover all officers and NCOs.
3. A mass levy from the general population. Levy obligation is normally only 40 days per year, but levies will fight to protect their homeland from invasion.
Domain Type  Levy % of Population  
Wilderness      20%
Borderland      10%
Civilised            5%
In uncivilised regions Levy Clansmen/Tribesmen and Borderers may make effective light infantry; some urban centres also maintain good quality levy militia, but typical feudal rural peasantry make poor troops. Some rulers maintain tax-exempt Yeomanry under their protection as specialised levy troops, eg longbowmen and billmen. These are required to maintain their own armaments, and are of similar quality to mercenary troops.

Quote from: S'mon;1127292Taking some good ideas from ACKS (which is heavily inspired by BECMI system), here's what I have currently:


Manors & Domains
High level Fighter Lords (level 9+) can extract 1gp/month from their domain, 12gp/year per resident in a freehold; for other rulers the typical income is 10gp/year gross income for a typical borderland manor.

New Manors
Initially attract freeholders on a manor equal to 'Max Henchmen' score x10 and if there's plenty of land grow as per table below. Of course diplomacy and conquest can enable rapid growth...
For random potential areas optionally roll 3d4 for the likely gp/year reflecting resources; Fighter Lords add +2 to the roll. 10gp/year assumes a near optimum environment.

Lord's CHA: Initial Freeholders (Manor)
3-4:  10; Growth -3%
5-6: 20; Growth -2%
7-8: 30; Growth -1%
9-11: 40; Growth +0%
12-13: 50; Growth +0%
14: 60; Growth +0.5%
15: 70; Growth +1.5%
16: 80; Growth +2%
17: 100; Growth +3%
18: 150; Growth +4%
19+: 200; Growth +5%
A typical manor in settled farmlands is 640 acres, or 1 square mile. Maximum manor size in borderlands is roughly 2 miles diameter (one 2 mile hex), or just over 3 square miles, of which no more than 1 square mile is likely farmland. Exceptions apply to rulers of exceptional charisma - see below. Otherwise new manors must be created to administer the growing population.

Manor Current Population & Base Growth Rate (annual)
Under 20       +30%
20                 +25%
40                 +20%
60                 +15%
80                 +10%
100                 +5%
125                 +4%
150                 +3%
200                 +2%
300                 +1% requires 1.5 square miles farmland
400                 +0% " 2 sq m"
500                  -1% " 2.5 sq m"
600                  -2% " 3 sq m"
700                  -3% " 3.5 sq m"
800                  -4% " 4 sq m"
900+                -5% " 4.5 sq m"

A sub-infeudinated manor must have a lord or thane, preferably a henchman/retainer of the higher lord.

Resource Investment
For every 200gp spent on resource development, a manor will attract 1d10 more people. Growth limits still apply.

Typical Domain Costs
A typical domain has gross income of 10gp/person/year and expenses of 75% of income, leaving a net income of 2.5gp/person/year.
Garrison: 20% (civilised)-30% (borderland)-40% (wilderness) of income (2gp-4gp/person/year)
Stronghold Upkeep: 5% of stronghold cost per year; typical strongholds cost = annual domain income x2 (civilised) x3 (borderland)  x4 (wilderness), so typically 10%-20% of income, 1-2gp/person/year
Salt Tax: 20% of gross income to higher lord, 2gp/person/year
Tithes: 0% (wilderness) -5% (borderland)-10% (civilised) of gross income to local churches/temples, 0gp-1gp/person/year
Festivals & Alms: 5% of income, 0.5gp/person/year

Urban Investment
It takes 1 year to create a new settlement at a suitable locale. Once created, the settlement maximum population figure is added to the maximum population figures above, so eg +30% annual growth requires a population fewer than 20 above the numbers below. Furthermore, after 1 year population is attracted to develop a number of surrounding rural manors, which may potentially be ruled and taxed.
Investment  Additional Maximum Population Settlement Area/Surrounding Manors (of 1-3 sq m)
 10,000gp      +1000 Small Town  (0.1 square mile)/6
 25,000gp      +3000 Town            (0.25 square mile)/12
 75,000gp      +10000 Small City (0.5 square mile)/24
200,000gp     +25000 Large City (1 square mile)/50
625,000gp     +100000 Metropolis (2 square miles)/100
2,500,000gp  +500000 Grand Metropolis (10 square miles)/200

Armies & War
Typical resources available to a ruler are:
1. The standing garrison forces of his domain and those of his vassals.
2. Any available mercenary companies. Short term hire is normally for 1 fighting season (3 months); with the first month in advance - pre-equipped and trained units hired for war cost 10 times standard soldier garrison wages, eg 40gp/month for heavy foot, 120gp/month for heavy horse - this does however cover all officers and NCOs.
3. A mass levy from the general population. Levy obligation is normally only 40 days per year, but levies will fight to protect their homeland from invasion.
Domain Type  Levy % of Population  
Wilderness      20%
Borderland      10%
Civilised            5%
In uncivilised regions Levy Clansmen/Tribesmen and Borderers may make effective light infantry; some urban centres also maintain good quality levy militia, but typical feudal rural peasantry make poor troops. Some rulers maintain tax-exempt Yeomanry under their protection as specialised levy troops, eg longbowmen and billmen. These are required to maintain their own armaments, and are of similar quality to mercenary troops.

I believe our DM used something like this, probably less detailed, no inherent population growth and CHA only affected loyalty, not numbers, of followers. But otherwise similar to this. Plus the D&D price lists, for things like castle components, ships etc.

I'm quite partial to the AiME rules given that they have the separation between the Adventuring Phase and the Fellowship Phase.  During the Fellowship phase you accomplish various Undertakings and domain management is a choice.  It's actually a pretty elegant way to have someone who wants to be the wandering Dunadan playing alongside someone who wants to be King of the Woodsmen and someone else who wants to run an Inn.