Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2023, 05:01:57 PM
Hey, Jaeger! That got me thinking, though. If GM's are the main people that buy all the books and stuff, right?--as Players of course don't tend to spend much money on stuff.

WHO then, is patronizing WOTC? WHO is keeping them afloat and punch-drunk happy?
...

Four types of interrelated consumers: (Many more one than the other, and some a combination of all three.)

First:
The unbelievable amount of GM's and player's that only play D&D.

To them D&D = RPG. Period.

And it has been that way in the hobby since the beginning...


Second:
One must also never underestimate the power of normie players.

Normies do not work for their fun. Ever.

D&D has the largest network effect of players and GM's that allow someone to find a game with minimal effort.

Therefore, that is the game that gets played come hell or high-water.

Finding players or a GM for any other RPG requires more effort. Effort = Work to normies.

And normies do not 'work' for their fun.


Third:
There are also those caught in a sunk-cost fallacy, that have a lot of money tied up in all things 'official D&D' and are very reluctant to abandon it.


Fourth:
And believe it or not - some actually like the cut of Wotzi's jib...  They like 5e, like the direction it is going, and want to: "Please sir, can I have some more!"


Unfathomable I know. But one cannot deny the reality of their existence.

Quote from: Jaeger on May 18, 2023, 04:43:02 PM
4e was still the number one RPG except for a 2 year window.

Number 1 2008-10
Number 2 2010-12
OOP 2012-2014

Quote from: S'mon on May 18, 2023, 05:35:41 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on May 18, 2023, 04:43:02 PM
4e was still the number one RPG except for a 2 year window.

Number 1 2008-10
Number 2 2010-12
OOP 2012-2014

You jogged my memory. I'm pretty sure now that I messed up some dates in my post - I'll have to look back at my old notes...

Depending on how you look at things; PF only really out sold 4e straight-up for a year or so, with 2012 on being #1 by default due to 4e being OOP.

And in my opinion PF outsold 4e by just a bit, not by the orders of magnitude that D&D typically outsells its nearest competitors...

Quote from: Jaeger on May 18, 2023, 05:33:56 PM

Third:
There are also those caught in a sunk-cost fallacy, that have a lot of money tied up in all things 'official D&D' and are very reluctant to abandon it.


Fourth:
And believe it or not - some actually like the cut of Wotzi's jib...  They like 5e, like the direction it is going, and want to: "Please sir, can I have some more!"

There's a variation on those two that doesn't exactly fit either one:  They enjoy "D&D"--or to be more precise, "D&D-like" games, and have a lot of good will from whatever spark started that, from OD&D to whatever.  It's not sunk cost, but it is inertia.  It's not approval of WotKKK, but it is maybe some approval of past work by them and the adjacent companies. 

This is much the same way that when an organization starts to go downhill, frequently it will take a long time for the rot to become apparent to the outside.  The people inside are part of the previous culture, before the rot set in, and they are still getting the benefit of that.  When a game is mostly, kind of, sort of, working for you--and the other options don't look any better for your tastes--you can roll along for some time doing your own thing, even when the underlying thing isn't holding up its end of the bargain.  One of the reasons I had such a good run with 5E early was because I had run AD&D and B/X before and brought some of that sensibility to the game.  My younger players got some old school benefits in their 5E game that the 5E game didn't provide. 

When the inertia runs out, that's when people start to drop off. Which is how cascade failures sneak up on companies. 

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2023, 04:23:49 PM
I don't pity them or look down on them for not having much of any kind of attitude towards WOTC. To them, WOTC is just some giant company that makes books and stuff for D&D. They wouldn't know who the fuck the lead designer of D&D is, or any of the people there at WOTC. I could have them sit at the table with us, and they'd be like, who's this doofus? *Laughing*

I guess I do have an appreciation for "Normies". Some people in our hobby seem to enjoy bashing them, or sneering at them, but I can think of many "Normies" that are fantastic gamers, and enjoy playing RPG's. No, they don't GM like I do--and they don't buy a bunch of books like I do.

Quote from: Jaeger on May 18, 2023, 05:33:56 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2023, 05:01:57 PM
Hey, Jaeger! That got me thinking, though. If GM's are the main people that buy all the books and stuff, right?--as Players of course don't tend to spend much money on stuff.

WHO then, is patronizing WOTC? WHO is keeping them afloat and punch-drunk happy?

Four types of interrelated consumers: (Many more one than the other, and some a combination of all three.)

First: The unbelievable amount of GM's and player's that only play D&D.

To them D&D = RPG. Period.

And it has been that way in the hobby since the beginning...

Second: One must also never underestimate the power of normie players.

Normies do not work for their fun. Ever.

D&D has the largest network effect of players and GM's that allow someone to find a game with minimal effort.

Therefore, that is the game that gets played come hell or high-water.

Finding players or a GM for any other RPG requires more effort. Effort = Work to normies.

And normies do not 'work' for their fun.

Third: There are also those caught in a sunk-cost fallacy, that have a lot of money tied up in all things 'official D&D' and are very reluctant to abandon it.

Fourth: And believe it or not - some actually like the cut of Wotzi's jib...  They like 5e, like the direction it is going, and want to: "Please sir, can I have some more!"

Unfathomable I know. But one cannot deny the reality of their existence.

It seems to me that this is is doing what SHARK spoke of earlier -- bashing the "normies" who play D&D as a game to play on weekends, and don't go daily to RPG boards to hear all the latest RPG gossip.

Jaeger, you might consider it unfathomable, but plenty of people even here on this board have found 5E D&D a fun game to play. I'm running a campaign currently. S'mon has been running it, as I recall. I'm sure there's plenty more posters here.

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2023, 06:59:11 PM
It seems to me that this is is doing what SHARK spoke of earlier -- bashing the "normies" who play D&D as a game to play on weekends, and don't go daily to RPG boards to hear all the latest RPG gossip.

Jaeger, you might consider it unfathomable, but plenty of people even here on this board have found 5E D&D a fun game to play. I'm running a campaign currently. S'mon has been running it, as I recall. I'm sure there's plenty more posters here.

Look kids; Jager used a bit of hyperbole in a forum post on the RPGSite!




And who said that people weren't having fun playing 5e?


Pointing out normie behavior patterns is not bashing them.

It's acknowledging the reality of the situation.

Normies are what they are.

I know that if I ever release an RPG, I'd be thrilled to cash checks from normie sales.


Shark is a big boy. I'm sure he can hack a little plain speaking.

Quote from: Jaeger on May 18, 2023, 07:59:24 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2023, 06:59:11 PM
It seems to me that this is is doing what SHARK spoke of earlier -- bashing the "normies" who play D&D as a game to play on weekends, and don't go daily to RPG boards to hear all the latest RPG gossip.

Jaeger, you might consider it unfathomable, but plenty of people even here on this board have found 5E D&D a fun game to play. I'm running a campaign currently. S'mon has been running it, as I recall. I'm sure there's plenty more posters here.

Look kids; Jager used a bit of hyperbole in a forum post on the RPGSite!




And who said that people weren't having fun playing 5e?


Pointing out normie behavior patterns is not bashing them.

It's acknowledging the reality of the situation.

Normies are what they are.

I know that if I ever release an RPG, I'd be thrilled to cash checks from normie sales.


Shark is a big boy. I'm sure he can hack a little plain speaking.

Greetings!

"HOW DARE YOU!" *Laughing* That is such an awesome meme! I love hearing the muppet REEE!!!

Like the world is going to give a fuck what some snot-nosed adolescent girl thinks about anything?

Fucking mind blowing. She's such a tool for the deep state. Pathetic and sad.

Oh, yeah, the whole "Normie" gamers. I have some of them, too. I've played with them as well. Even with normies, you have some variations, right?

It just was like a bee in my brain or something, how different WE all are, here, as members of this board, and while some of my friends are GM's, and passionate, there is some difference there as well. As you mentioned though, as well, my friend, the VAST NUMBERS OF NORMIES. There are lots of people that really are entirely unaware of WOTC, and all the drama that goes on. They most often agree with your politics, mine, and others, that's why they are our friends and in our gaming groups. But how many of your friends, the people you game with, family members, how plugged in are they to WOTC drama? The OGL scandal? WOTC's horrible anti[white racism?

Probably not many, I'd imagine. And, probably like me, the ones that might be *somewhat* tuned in, are because you have set the table for them. I have several people like that. Of course, I have some friends and fellow gamers that are dialed in on all this stuff, just like we are. They are a minority though.

Like you said as well, these are just realities. I've told my friends though that WOTC has gone WOKE AS FUCK, and that they are racist against WHITE PEOPLE. And, I told them all in short, about the whole OGL BS. So, yeah, they are all like, "FUCK WOTC!" And they understand fully why I am now against WOTC, even though I love D&D. I still have a 5E game going. I've been gaming with D&D for decades now. But, I don't need WOTC to do that, so yeah, my friend. I'm done with WOTC.

And you know what else? I think there are variations even with us "Old Guard." Back in the 3E days, when WOTC stabbed 3E and brought out 4E--I was furious. I was angry with WOTC, but it was tempered and focused on a gaming basis. So, I walked away from ever jumping on 4E. I never bought *ONE* 4E book. I just continued playing 3E. Then, with 5E, I'm certainly not some SIMP or a fucking "battered wife"--WOTC looked like they woke the fuck up from a time of stupidity, and actually looked like they were returning to making a good game, more in line with "Old School" values. Thus, I gave them another chance, and went with 5E.

So, what has changed? Well, yeah, things change. Situations and relationships, don't always remain static. Sometimes they can improve, and sometimes they go down the drain and crash and burn. WOTC decided to GO WOKE. Then, they became UBER TYRANT GREEDY, and tried to cancel their honour that they had in good faith established for 20 fucking years! THEN, they suddenly become fucking ANTI-WHITE RACISTS.

That's all deeply personal to me. It goes beyond "Game Editions." It isn't a game system disagreement, much like 4E was. This is all entirely personal. And yeah, that is BS, and I've just had it with WOTC.

I suspect that may be a similar evolution with many of the "Old Guard" gamers such as ourselves. I've seen them on line as well, state such as being the case. That doesn't mean that they hate D&D, just that they are no longer dealing with WOTC as customers--or as fans any longer. After many, many years, just like us.

That's the way things go sometimes.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Jaeger on May 18, 2023, 07:59:24 PM
And who said that people weren't having fun playing 5e?

Pointing out normie behavior patterns is not bashing them.

It's acknowledging the reality of the situation.

Your description of D&D player mentality seemed phrased very negatively to me. Are you saying that it's not "bashing" because it's true that D&D-playing normies actually suck?

I don't think there's anything wrong with being a normie. My son is a dedicated RPG player, but my two nieces and one nephew are normies. I've run a handful of non-D&D RPGs with them, but I think they've only played D&D with their peers. My niece strangely enough had a AD&D 1E group, while my other niece and nephew played 4E and 5E - though their father (my brother-in-law) did show them 1E. They don't read RPG forums or follow industry news.

Likewise, it's fine for people to have fun bowling and never try bocce or golf. I find being a dedicated RPG hobbyist rewarding, but it's not for everyone. I have other hobbies that I only dabble in. I'm sure my fiancee and I are "normies" to dedicated ballroom dancers.

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2023, 08:43:27 PM
I think there are variations even with us "Old Guard." Back in the 3E days, when WOTC stabbed 3E and brought out 4E--I was furious. I was angry with WOTC, but it was tempered and focused on a gaming basis. So, I walked away from ever jumping on 4E. I never bought *ONE* 4E book. I just continued playing 3E. Then, with 5E, I'm certainly not some SIMP or a fucking "battered wife"--WOTC looked like they woke the fuck up from a time of stupidity, and actually looked like they were returning to making a good game, more in line with "Old School" values. Thus, I gave them another chance, and went with 5E.

Yeah, as you say, there are many variations even among the "Old Guard" as well as among the "New Guard".

I never cared for 3E much. I was curious and played it for few months, but then gave it up. I briefly tried 4E just to play with my niece and nephew, and I played the 4E boardgames some. For me, 5E is my favorite among the D&D editions. I liked the core rules, but I hated the early adventures. When I GMed 5E, I adapted modules from older editions rather than use the new ones. Some of the later modules were apparently better. In general, D&D isn't among my favorite games, but it's still good.

Quote from: Jaeger on May 18, 2023, 05:33:56 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2023, 05:01:57 PM
Hey, Jaeger! That got me thinking, though. If GM's are the main people that buy all the books and stuff, right?--as Players of course don't tend to spend much money on stuff.

WHO then, is patronizing WOTC? WHO is keeping them afloat and punch-drunk happy?
...

Second:
One must also never underestimate the power of normie players.

Normies do not work for their fun. Ever.

D&D has the largest network effect of players and GM's that allow someone to find a game with minimal effort.

Therefore, that is the game that gets played come hell or high-water.

Finding players or a GM for any other RPG requires more effort. Effort = Work to normies.

And normies do not 'work' for their fun.

This is part of what I hate about normie players. TTRPGs are inherently DYI, even if people want to get lazy and run only published modules or whatever. And DYI = 'work' for your fun. And personally, I like to take DYI to "build your own system or modular components like special options & stuff from scratch" levels. That's what TTRPGs are really all about. 

And while I don't beat myself up about it too much in gaming in particular, I do tend to think that there's a LOT wrong with "normies", and not just in TTRPGs, but in general. Normies are the intellectually lazy people who enable every single problem in the world (without exception), including the political shit we're at and the endless wars for profit, cuz they just don't wanna get informed or think about it. And when it comes to gaming and other hobbies, they're the ones who enable companies that engage in unethical practices, cuz they don't wanna learn WTF these companies are doing or do boycotts. It's just too inconvenient for them.

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2023, 06:59:11 PM
Jaeger, you might consider it unfathomable, but plenty of people even here on this board have found 5E D&D a fun game to play. I'm running a campaign currently. S'mon has been running it, as I recall.

I'm currently running 5 5e D&D groups, and two Dragonbane groups.

5e groups listed here http://simonyrpgs.blogspot.com/2023/05/5e-campaigns-pc-groups.html

Dragonbane is certainly a better game in most respects, but 5e still does D&D well.

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2023, 08:43:27 PM
Then, with 5E, I'm certainly not some SIMP or a fucking "battered wife"--WOTC looked like they woke the fuck up from a time of stupidity, and actually looked like they were returning to making a good game, more in line with "Old School" values. Thus, I gave them another chance, and went with 5E.

So, what has changed? Well, yeah, things change. Situations and relationships, don't always remain static. Sometimes they can improve, and sometimes they go down the drain and crash and burn. WOTC decided to GO WOKE. Then, they became UBER TYRANT GREEDY, and tried to cancel their honour that they had in good faith established for 20 fucking years! THEN, they suddenly become fucking ANTI-WHITE RACISTS.

That's all deeply personal to me. It goes beyond "Game Editions." It isn't a game system disagreement, much like 4E was. This is all entirely personal. And yeah, that is BS, and I've just had it with WOTC.

I suspect that may be a similar evolution with many of the "Old Guard" gamers such as ourselves. I've seen them on line as well, state such as being the case. That doesn't mean that they hate D&D, just that they are no longer dealing with WOTC as customers--or as fans any longer.

Yeah, me too. But same for some of my left-liberal players/fellow GMs, too. They may not care about the anti-white racism, but they care about the OGL and Pinkertons.

Quote from: jhkim on May 19, 2023, 01:12:05 AM
For me, 5E is my favorite among the D&D editions. I liked the core rules, but I hated the early adventures. When I GMed 5E, I adapted modules from older editions rather than use the new ones.

Yeah, me too. 

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on May 18, 2023, 06:49:47 PM
One of the reasons I had such a good run with 5E early was because I had run AD&D and B/X before and brought some of that sensibility to the game.  My younger players got some old school benefits in their 5E game that the 5E game didn't provide.   

Same here - and this is a great point. Mearls (& Pundit!) did really well making 5e compatible with old-school sensibilities.  BUT a lot of the OD&D/BX/1e stuff isn't actually in the 5e books, or is presented in a messed up fashion (a bit like 4e's cargo cult attempt to describe sandbox campaigns in the 4e DMG). So 5e is very dependent on institutional knowledge to work well. And that knowledge is being lost. Crawford & Perkins don't have it, for sure. Matt Colville has it, but his attempts to describe it in his Youtube videos have had mixed results I think, and AFAIK it's not there in his published 5e books.

Quote from: S'mon on May 19, 2023, 07:23:21 AM

I'm currently running 5 5e D&D groups, and two Dragonbane groups.

Dragonbane is certainly a better game in most respects, but 5e still does D&D well.

Damn, that's a lot of groups!

I'm curious what aspects you think make DB better than D&D?

After reading the quickstart, I really disagreed with some of the design decisions they made which killed my enthusiasm for the game.

Is it the conceptual differences, or hard rules that just do certain fantasy aspect better?

Quote from: S'mon on May 19, 2023, 07:33:15 AM
Same here - and this is a great point. Mearls (& Pundit!) did really well making 5e compatible with old-school sensibilities.  BUT a lot of the OD&D/BX/1e stuff isn't actually in the 5e books, or is presented in a messed up fashion (a bit like 4e's cargo cult attempt to describe sandbox campaigns in the 4e DMG). So 5e is very dependent on institutional knowledge to work well. And that knowledge is being lost. Crawford & Perkins don't have it, for sure. Matt Colville has it, but his attempts to describe it in his Youtube videos have had mixed results I think, and AFAIK it's not there in his published 5e books.

That's one thing I noticed when I read the rules for the first time.

In my opinion; A total newbie to RPG's would be lost without all the other resources out there on how to make the system work for them.

It leans heavily on its dominant network effect to ease new players into the game.

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2023, 08:43:27 PM
...
Oh, yeah, the whole "Normie" gamers. I have some of them, too. I've played with them as well. Even with normies, you have some variations, right?

It just was like a bee in my brain or something, how different WE all are, here, as members of this board, ...

Like you said as well, these are just realities. ...

And you know what else? I think there are variations even with us "Old Guard." ...

I suspect that may be a similar evolution with many of the "Old Guard" gamers such as ourselves. I've seen them on line as well, state such as being the case. That doesn't mean that they hate D&D, just that they are no longer dealing with WOTC as customers--or as fans any longer. After many, many years, just like us.

That's the way things go sometimes.

Of course there are variations and exceptions. 

When discussing things in general amongst people capable of abstract thinking, they do not need to be gone over in minutiae; Because it goes without saying that they are there, and it's recognized that their existence doesn't invalidate the overall trends or ideas being discussed.

(Most of this board gets this, thankfully, with the usual exceptions. LOL...)

Quote from: jhkim on May 19, 2023, 01:12:05 AM
Your description of D&D player mentality seemed phrased very negatively to me. ...

Quote from: S'mon on May 19, 2023, 07:29:14 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 19, 2023, 01:12:05 AM
For me, 5E is my favorite among the D&D editions. I liked the core rules, but I hated the early adventures. When I GMed 5E, I adapted modules from older editions rather than use the new ones.

Yeah, me too. 

Quote from: S'mon on May 19, 2023, 07:33:15 AM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on May 18, 2023, 06:49:47 PM
One of the reasons I had such a good run with 5E early was because I had run AD&D and B/X before and brought some of that sensibility to the game.  My younger players got some old school benefits in their 5E game that the 5E game didn't provide.   

Same here - and this is a great point. Mearls (& Pundit!) did really well making 5e compatible with old-school sensibilities.  BUT a lot of the OD&D/BX/1e stuff isn't actually in the 5e books, or is presented in a messed up fashion (a bit like 4e's cargo cult attempt to describe sandbox campaigns in the 4e DMG). So 5e is very dependent on institutional knowledge to work well. And that knowledge is being lost. Crawford & Perkins don't have it, for sure. Matt Colville has it, but his attempts to describe it in his Youtube videos have had mixed results I think, and AFAIK it's not there in his published 5e books.

While I hated the original official 5E modules, overall I think D&D module style and quality has gone back and forth. It's not just old-school vs new-school. I also dislike a lot of old-school modules -- in particular the 1980s trend of tournament modules like Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth or Ghost Tower of Inverness -- as well as the later 1990s trend of boxed-text fixed-storyline adventures like those for the Ravenloft setting (though I love the original I6 and I10 modules). The tournament module trend feels extremely meta-gamey to me, like artificial video game setups, especially when using the original tournament point systems. The boxed-text fixed-storyline are obviously railroady.

There are modules I like, but they're relatively scattered over the decades. For example, The Sunless Citadel for 3E is one of my favorites, and certainly my favorite introductory module. On the other hand, there are many older modules that I enjoy as well. I love Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan. Though it is a tournament module, it's very grounded in background and in-character design.