Greetings!

Well, as I recall, D&D3E, (3.5E)--was strong, healthy, and going strong. WOTC pulling the plug of 3E was seen by *many* as a deep betrayal.

That's right, Baizuo rose to prominence by creating PATHFINDER.

That is how strong the hatred was for WOTC abandoning and killing 3E.

THEN, creating the dumpster fire that was 4E--that generated even MORE animosity from fans and customers. Many of which were of the "Old Guard" that had been faithfully supporting WOTC up until that point. 4E was seen as ANOTHER BETRAYAL by WOTC, by many, many Grognards.

It represented a huge push away from what the D&D game had always been. So, there are two main factors going here of betrayal, and growing animosity; (1) Killing 3E, and (2) Replacing 3E with the dumpster fire of 4E.

As long as we are discussing history, these key factors should be remembered why so many of the "Old Guard" left WOTC.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Hixanthrope on May 18, 2023, 12:20:54 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 14, 2023, 09:31:57 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on May 14, 2023, 12:15:26 AM
The old audience, the group of fans that stuck with D&D through thick and thin

That's a DECADE now of bashing, at least.

Here's to another decade, lads.

Greetings!

Here, Here! SKOL!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Stop LYING guys!

You can't stick by a game for decades since it's inception, staying through it's ups and downs across multiple editions and iterations, buying thousands of dollars worth of splat books and supplementary materials from each of them through the years, then leave after the company spits on you, abandons you as an audience and creates a new unrecognizable  "edition" of that game that targets a completely different audience from you. Only to the return again once that company puts out yet a newer edition of that game catering to you once more, and claim that you "stuck with D&D through thick and thin".

What about that ONE time you stopped being their BITCH for half a second then came back to them like a battered wife the moment that company gave the slightest indication that it wanted you back? WotC owes you NO loyalty after taking your dollars and your help spreading their brand, building the network effect for their game for decades on end, making it the only TTRPG the general public even knows about. You guys truly want to have your cake and eat it too, don't ya? You duplicitous swine!

Greetings!

"To Thine Own Self Be True." Ultimately, *I* am the customer. *I* am what is most important, and *I* am the priority. When WOTC, or any company, in any business, seems to forget that salient dynamic, *I* do not need to provide them with my business, my patronage, and my money. Certainly, they can change their "Market Focus". They can do so at their own financial and industry-ranking peril. It might be a move and an attitude that drives me away--and millions of other important customers that feel the same way. It is sometimes a longer process, of course--which can result in the company ultimately being severely diminished, or even going bankrupt.

The Market-place is littered with the shattered, defeated corpses of deceased companies--corporations that were at one time, vibrant, profitable, and relevant. No longer. Their executives have been fired. The corporations such as these have become extinct. Their owners, likewise either bankrupt themselves, or much diminished.

It is as simple as that. It is a lifespan and market environment for all corporations. *Shrugs* I'm not sure why accusations of "Lying!" or other proclamations of loyalty, disloyalty, and other such shrill nonsense are being thrown around.

Companies either do what the fuck I want, provide me with the service and products I want, or they can get fucked. Furthermore, beyond any particular product or service, the attitude they demonstrate is also important. If they give me the wrong attitude, they can get fucked too. How's that sound?

WOTC is not the only company under such obligation, and scrutiny. I have done the same thing with other companies in entirely different fields, such as Hewlitt Packard, a major computer company, and various restaurants. When such companies change their food service, or their product line, or just get stupid with giving me a fucked up attitude, they are fucking DONE. I haven't provided these businesses with my patronage since.

I will also be sure to loudly and stridently tell all of my friends not to patronize such companies.

That is the bottom line. Companies are free to fuck around and find out.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

This has got to be the worst time to get into the streaming/channel game. Most people I know are fed up with services offering a narrow range of things on their platforms (ten years ago there used to be a lot more on each individual one).

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2023, 08:12:09 AM
It is as simple as that. It is a lifespan and market environment for all corporations. *Shrugs* I'm not sure why accusations of "Lying!" or other proclamations of loyalty, disloyalty, and other such shrill nonsense are being thrown around.

Companies either do what the fuck I want, provide me with the service and products I want, or they can get fucked. Furthermore, beyond any particular product or service, the attitude they demonstrate is also important. If they give me the wrong attitude, they can get fucked too. How's that sound?

I agree. There's talk about customer-to-company as if it's some sort of personal committed relationship. Loyalty to a company -- sticking to it through thick and thin -- isn't some sort of virtue that deserves reward.

From my side, I'm not going to keep buying from a company if they don't give service or products that I want. I don't owe them anything.

From the company's side, they don't owe me anything either. If they can make more money selling different product to different people, then good for them. We can part ways.

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2023, 10:33:41 AM

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2023, 08:12:09 AM
It is as simple as that. It is a lifespan and market environment for all corporations. *Shrugs* I'm not sure why accusations of "Lying!" or other proclamations of loyalty, disloyalty, and other such shrill nonsense are being thrown around.

Companies either do what the fuck I want, provide me with the service and products I want, or they can get fucked. Furthermore, beyond any particular product or service, the attitude they demonstrate is also important. If they give me the wrong attitude, they can get fucked too. How's that sound?

I agree. There's talk about customer-to-company as if it's some sort of personal committed relationship. Loyalty to a company -- sticking to it through thick and thin -- isn't some sort of virtue that deserves reward.

From my side, I'm not going to keep buying from a company if they don't give service or products that I want. I don't owe them anything.

From the company's side, they don't owe me anything either. If they can make more money selling different product to different people, then good for them. We can part ways.

Greetings!

Yeah! Exactly, Jhkim! Companies are typically arrogant, greedy, and worthless. Obviously, some companies are different though. I have long since lost any vague hopes that I had for WOTC having a soul.

Smaller companies? Well, yeah. They can be a very different animal. My local auto shop? I've known the owner and his brother for years now. Their work has been consistently good, and trustworthy. The owner doesn't BS me, and has done things that look out for my best interest--even when he has not charged me specifically for various work. He's ust been an outstanding gentleman, and a top-shelf professional mechanic. I am *loyal* to him, and only take my Mercedes SUV to another shop when he hasn't been able to do the special work--I got special, all-weather tires from another shop, a specialty tire shop--that he personally recommended me to, and sent me to.

Likewise, I go to several local restaurants for example--I either know the owners or the managers, and have been a customer and patron for years. They consistently provide great food, and *excellent* service to me, each and every time I show up. They know my name, and typically make me what I want, right when I walk in the door, before I actually order anything. They just hook me up and come over and start chatting with me immediately. My food is right on the way. Or the special coffee I like, she has fired up and already making. I know these people. I see them, to their face, several times a week.

That is not WOTC though.

You are entrely right not to patronize a business that doesn't provide the products or services you want, or if they embrace an attitude that you find unacceptable. Poor customer service is a reality. Consumer choice, and financial patronage is how the *customer* stomps on the company, and checks them. They either get with the program, or we,the customers, go somewhere else.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Mistwell on May 17, 2023, 08:40:47 PM
I don't think it's unfair to conflate OSR with "old guard" ...

You openly admit to be confalationary and disingenuous, but you feel it's OK when you do it.

What a howler!!! You just can't make this stuff up...


I think most everyone else here has had no issues understanding the overall point of my posts:

Quote from: A useful example not directed at any particular poster on May 18, 2023, 06:40:03 AM
...
What about that ONE time you stopped being their BITCH for half a second then came back to them like a battered wife the moment that company gave the slightest indication that it wanted you back? ...

Were I to say: "A battered wife stuck with her husband through thick and thin, coming back to him everytime he said he was sorry"

Everyone would understand exactly what I meant.   

Only semantic nazi's looking to score rhetorical 'gotcha' points would harp on and on about: "But she went to her sisters one time for a whole week after he hit her, that's not what through thick and thin means!!!!!"

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2023, 10:33:41 AM
...

...There's talk about customer-to-company as if it's some sort of personal committed relationship. Loyalty to a company -- sticking to it through thick and thin -- isn't some sort of virtue that deserves reward.
...

Agreed, for it is no virtue at all.

But what cannot be denied is that tons of people still love, love, love, their favorite RPG Ip in RPG land.

We have seen this irrational loyalty time and time again.

Naturally, everyone here is a free-thinking iconoclast, and no filthy corporation is ever gonna tell them what to do.

But out in RPG land; You can find people singing the praises of the new Spelljammer setting...

Quote from: Jaeger on May 18, 2023, 01:32:55 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 18, 2023, 06:40:03 AM
What about that ONE time you stopped being their BITCH for half a second then came back to them like a battered wife the moment that company gave the slightest indication that it wanted you back? WotC owes you NO loyalty after taking your dollars and your help spreading their brand, building the network effect for their game for decades on end, making it the only TTRPG the general public even knows about.

Were I to say: "A battered wife stuck with her husband through thick and thin, coming back to him everytime he said he was sorry"

Everyone would understand exactly what I meant.   

Only semantic nazi's looking to score rhetorical 'gotcha' points would harp on and on about: "But she went to her sisters one time for a whole week after he hit her, that's not what through thick and thin means!!!!!"

I agree that there is irrational brand loyalty, but playing D&D is not the equivalent of being a battered spouse, and leaving for 6 years is not the equivalent of one week.

Yeah, people often have irrational loyalty to corporate brands like Coca-Cola, McDonald's, or Apple. And within RPGs, that's loyalty to D&D - or even if not D&D, then very close alternatives like Pathfinder or retro-clones. I often wish that it was easier to find players for less well-known RPGs like Hellcats & Hockeysticks, or Blue Planet, etc. But that's life.


Lots of people play D&D as a simple fun activity, without discussing it daily on forums, following social media news, and/or knowing publishing details. I don't think they're pitiable battered wives or anything. They're having fun playing a fun game. I haven't bought anything from WotC since the OGL fiasco, but I'm still running a 5th edition game.

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2023, 03:44:46 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on May 18, 2023, 01:32:55 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 18, 2023, 06:40:03 AM
What about that ONE time you stopped being their BITCH for half a second then came back to them like a battered wife the moment that company gave the slightest indication that it wanted you back? WotC owes you NO loyalty after taking your dollars and your help spreading their brand, building the network effect for their game for decades on end, making it the only TTRPG the general public even knows about.

Were I to say: "A battered wife stuck with her husband through thick and thin, coming back to him everytime he said he was sorry"

Everyone would understand exactly what I meant.   

Only semantic nazi's looking to score rhetorical 'gotcha' points would harp on and on about: "But she went to her sisters one time for a whole week after he hit her, that's not what through thick and thin means!!!!!"

I agree that there is irrational brand loyalty, but playing D&D is not the equivalent of being a battered spouse, and leaving for 6 years is not the equivalent of one week.

Yeah, people often have irrational loyalty to corporate brands like Coca-Cola, McDonald's, or Apple. And within RPGs, that's loyalty to D&D - or even if not D&D, then very close alternatives like Pathfinder or retro-clones. I often wish that it was easier to find players for less well-known RPGs like Hellcats & Hockeysticks, or Blue Planet, etc. But that's life.


Lots of people play D&D as a simple fun activity, without discussing it daily on forums, following social media news, and/or knowing publishing details. I don't think they're pitiable battered wives or anything. They're having fun playing a fun game. I haven't bought anything from WotC since the OGL fiasco, but I'm still running a 5th edition game.

Greetings!

That's a good observation, Jhkim. You may find it difficult to believe--but not all of my friends are just like me. They certainly share my same values, but some of them are just, a different temperament. They are not often online, and when they are, it isn't to look after game stuff. Some of my friends are very busy with their wives, raising kids, and worried about how they are going to get the upcoming concrete project up and running properly, and running their crews of workmen. I periodically stick them with current game news and events, but for some of them, much of it is just beyond their radar. They're like, "That's BS, man. Fuck WOTC!"--and then, they want to pour some whiskey, light up a cigar, and get to rolling dice. I have a nephew that is exactly that. He hates anything "Woke", and has very little patience for politics in general. He thinks everyone in politics are corrupt, evil slugs. But he does love D&D, and he wants to get rolling dice and killing stuff, and listening to my crazy lore and history. He's all ears for anything dealing with history, fantasy, my game world--but real-world business and political drama?--the man just has zero interest or patience for any of it.

Some of the women I play with, also, aren't keen on staying current with political or corporate drama, especially of WOTC. They vaguely know who Paizo is, and that's about it. They, like the nephew, love D&D, and love playing in my campaigns, but they aren't into a lot of these details like we are. They could care less about WOTC having a 24-hour TV channel, or streaming channel, or whatever. They won't care if it is wildly successful, or of it dies suddenly and gets ruthlessly destroyed and taken offline within a week. They won't care, because they have never heard of it, and are not interested in hearing about it to begin with.

They look forward to spending a weekend evening or a weeknight gaming--and the rest of the time, their headspace is not thinking about gaming at all, or what WOTC is doing, or not doing; hell, they are barely aware of what the OSR even is, and that's only because of me! *Laughing*

I don't pity them or look down on them for not having much of any kind of attitude towards WOTC. To them, WOTC is just some giant company that makes books and stuff for D&D. They wouldn't know who the fuck the lead designer of D&D is, or any of the people there at WOTC. I could have them sit at the table with us, and they'd be like, who's this doofus? *Laughing*

I guess I do have an appreciation for "Normies". Some people in our hobby seem to enjoy bashing them, or sneering at them, but I can think of many "Normies" that are fantastic gamers, and enjoy playing RPG's. No, they don't GM like I do--and they don't buy a bunch of books like I do. They do buy miniatures and paints though; they like buying dice; and they always bring food and drinks to our game sessions. And, for many months or years, they show up reliably every game session, to participate. They listen to me tell them about the game world. They make considerable notes about their characters, and they seek to play the game and their characters well.

I think people like that are welcome in our hobby.

As an aside, I honestly think that is certainly one reason that I enjoy talking with people here, as well as ranting and sometimes fighting about stuff. Many, many people *out here*--in Normie world--just don't care, or aren't interested in the hobby in the same manner that we are. It's weird. They have *passion* for the game; they LOVE RPG's, and playing. But they do not have the same *kind* of interest, if that makes sense.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2023, 03:44:46 PM
I agree that there is irrational brand loyalty, but playing D&D is not the equivalent of being a battered spouse, and leaving for 6 years is not the equivalent of one week.
...
Lots of people play D&D as a simple fun activity, without discussing it daily on forums, following social media news, and/or knowing publishing details. I don't think they're pitiable battered wives or anything. ...

LOL!

"But, but, That's not what one week means!!!"


Shakespeare: "All the world's a stage"

The usual suspects:

Usual Suspect #1: "Your claiming the world is flat like a stage now. Stupid Flat-Earthers like yourself...
Usual Suspect #2: "Not everyone has access to stages, and you don't need to be on one to perform, so I really don't see..."

Quote from: Summon666 on May 14, 2023, 03:04:19 AM

Quote from: Omega on May 14, 2023, 02:17:40 AM

Quote from: Summon666 on May 13, 2023, 08:26:55 PM
Everyone thought the GamesWorkShop network would be a joke... still going strong years latter with more content being added all the time.. https://warhammerplus.com/

Thats because GW cultivated a cult mentality with its players.

yeah that is so unlike DnD. ; )

So far, yes. wotc wants that sort of blind idiot consumerism cult GW has. But they keep botching it at every turn. How they hang onto their mtg fanatics is anyones guess.

Quote from: Omega on May 18, 2023, 04:34:23 PM
... yes. wotc wants that sort of blind idiot consumerism cult GW has. But they keep botching it at every turn. How they hang onto their mtg fanatics is anyone's guess.

Yet even their botches have a remarkable retention rate.

4e was still the number one RPG except for a 2 year window. And the majority of 5e fandom could care less about the OGL fiasco.

Yeah, they permanently lost some people along the way.

But D&D's overall dominance within the hobby is well intact.

History has shown that they will have to go well beyond 4e levels of own-goal stupidity to permanently damage the brand.

Quote from: Jaeger on May 18, 2023, 04:43:02 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 18, 2023, 04:34:23 PM
... yes. wotc wants that sort of blind idiot consumerism cult GW has. But they keep botching it at every turn. How they hang onto their mtg fanatics is anyone's guess.

Yet even their botches have a remarkable retention rate.

4e was still the number one RPG except for a 2 year window. And the majority of 5e fandom could care less about the OGL fiasco.

Yeah, they permanently lost some people along the way.

But D&D's overall dominance within the hobby is well intact.

History has shown that they will have to go well beyond 4e levels of own-goal stupidity to permanently damage the brand.

Greetings!

Hey, Jaeger! That got me thinking, though. If GM's are the main people that buy all the books and stuff, right?--as Players of course don't tend to spend much money on stuff.

WHO then, is patronizing WOTC? WHO is keeping them afloat and punch-drunk happy?

I'm also reminded of how some folks have talked about lots of Woke fuckers not actually playing D&D at all--they just buy stacks of "Coffee Table" books to read and look at, and I guess virtue signal about to their Woke friends. Are they really a large segment though? I have no idea, personally. I don't know anyone that is like that. I can see how some of these latte-drinking Woke activists would be like that though. I've gotten the impression from also many of the "Diverse" gaming talent that WOTC hired to do some of their recent books, like the Citadel one, where lots of these people have been "gaming" for less than 5 years. I also say "Gaming" because I don't think most of them have a fucking clue about the game rules, or really understand what the game is about.

Like having an "adventure" where the players fucking play Baristas at a college coffee shop...*Laughing*

Or Marxist morons like Connie Chang. All that she REES about constantly is white supremacy and colonialism within the gaming hobby. I can't imagine being at a game table with her. Like sitting in some horrible fucking "Gender Studies Class", or a class on "Exploring the Evil Legacy of Colonialism."

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK