Playing games live and unscripted on stream would be very dangerous, as we saw with the whole Adam Koebel thing, so I can understand why they would prefer the alternative. I guess it might work for them if they can get enough paying viewers but it's not going to do anything for the D&D brand. And they'll still be open to other problems, like when one of their cast is outed for something they've done off stream to piss off the social media puritans.

I at least am doing pretty OK on youtube. The monetization on youtube is not huge, I could lose it all and not really be hurt by it, but it's also not nothing (it's typically in the range between $100-200USD). But of course, the main commercial importance of Youtube for me is that it bring attention to my books.

out of curiosity.....

Do you do paid sponsor content?
If WoTC approached you and offered you a sallery to make your videos, what would it take for you to consider it?

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 15, 2023, 03:25:49 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 15, 2023, 02:25:00 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 14, 2023, 10:24:30 PM
Won't somebody think of WotC? Why did you guys betray it when it needed you the most? How could you?!? 

I am not the one who made the claim they "stuck with it through thick and thin."

Who did? Can you quote them?

I already did Jeff. It was Jaeger.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on May 15, 2023, 08:08:06 AM
I don't even watch other people play on the internet which is free. Why would I pay for it?

It's slated to be a FAST streaming station (Free Advertising Supported TV)

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 15, 2023, 08:29:49 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 15, 2023, 07:54:30 PM
Pundit sounds like he's trying not to collapse in helpless laughter. I can't blame him.

Honest to God, all I can think of is the absolute glut of video games that hit the market when Atari lost that lawsuit with Activision. It feels like the same thing with streaming.

And how is WotC going to fill the time slots of a twenty four hour channel? Why not start small, with a Twitch or YT channel, try to lure some existing creators with cash, and then expand?

Not counting the pure cringe (cooking shows? seriously?), what can they offer that isn't already out for free?

I can only think of a show, either animated (easier since you don't need CGI) or live action set in Faerun, get some cosplayers on board, get someone talented to write it (or adapt the novels that you can) and boom, you've got one hour per week.

Went into detail about my idea but they don't deserve it for free, hey WotC/Hasbro my idea gives you 1 show first year, 2 the next, 3 the next, etc. not counting re-runs, so if you're interested you know where to find me, make it worth my while.

But of course they're TOO stupid.

It IS free

Quote from: Mistwell on May 16, 2023, 07:16:19 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 15, 2023, 03:25:49 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 15, 2023, 02:25:00 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 14, 2023, 10:24:30 PM
Won't somebody think of WotC? Why did you guys betray it when it needed you the most? How could you?!? 

I am not the one who made the claim they "stuck with it through thick and thin."

Who did? Can you quote them?

I already did Jeff. It was Jaeger.

Where's the quote? Can you provide a quote of him saying that? Or are you just being a liar again?

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 16, 2023, 07:33:27 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 16, 2023, 07:16:19 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 15, 2023, 03:25:49 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 15, 2023, 02:25:00 AM
I am not the one who made the claim they "stuck with it through thick and thin."

Who did? Can you quote them?

I already did Jeff. It was Jaeger.

Where's the quote? Can you provide a quote of him saying that? Or are you just being a liar again?

The quote is from Reply #6.

Quote from: Jaeger on May 14, 2023, 12:15:26 AM
Wotzi is betting that they can pull off what Blizzard did with Diablo Immortal.

The old audience, the group of fans that stuck with D&D through thick and thin don't matter.

What matters to Wotzi is can they monetize the new group of fans D&D has acquired in the past ten years?

I think most of the old audience dropped in and out regularly. That's certainly true of me. I never stuck with it or had any loyalty. It was just one of many games that I would play.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 16, 2023, 07:33:27 PM
Where's the quote? Can you provide a quote of him saying that? Or are you just being a liar again?

What could ever give you the idea that he would be disingenuous in any way?


I said this:

REPLY#6:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-dd-tv-network/msg1253938/#msg1253938

Quote from: Jaeger on May 14, 2023, 12:15:26 AM
This, along with the OneVTT are a bet.

Wotzi is betting that they can pull off what Blizzard did with Diablo Immortal.

The old audience, the group of fans that stuck with D&D through thick and thin don't matter.

What matters to Wotzi is can they monetize the new group of fans D&D has acquired in the past ten years?

One that lives off of vapid and twee engagement, one that has never known a game that has not had DLC and microtransaction content.

All the old Diablo fans HATE Diablo Immortal.

And Blizzard doesn't care. Because Diablo Immortal is a cash cow making money hand over fist.

Fuck the old fans. In with the cash cow lifestyle-brand new fans...

Dude flew off the handle into a rant on the OSR saying this:

REPLY#17:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-dd-tv-network/msg1254006/#msg1254006

Quote from: Mistwell on May 14, 2023, 09:31:57 PM
That is quite the whopper you just told there.

Stuck with D&D through thick and thin? Y'all turned on D&D. The chips were down after 4e and it was you guys who bailed for the OSR and have been bashing D&D ever since. That's a DECADE now of bashing, at least. Which is why I am always surprised at this constant refrain that people who like the OSR are somehow victims of WOTC and WOTC abandoned you. You guys abandoned THEM, remember? They reached out again by hiring Pundit as a consultant, he got them to release Basic D&D and the starter set, and you guys still turned your back on them when they needed your support after what happened with 4e.

Let's not re-write history. WOTC "turned" on the old school players because for years and years the old school players have been turning on them and bashing them for literally anything they say or do and playing the victim. You declared yourselves not the WOTC audience and act offended when they shrug and treat you like you're not the audience.

Lest anyone actually buy into his intentionally conflationary word-salad; I laid it out:

REPLY#29:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-dd-tv-network/msg1254026/#msg1254026

Quote from: Jaeger on May 15, 2023, 03:44:11 AM
Exactly where in my post did I mention the OSR?

I'll wait for it...


Compared to official D&D: The OSR is a Side Show, and Everyone knows it.

The overwhelming majority of D&D fans went running back to daddy Wotzi the second they gave them an excuse to with 5e.

The overwhelming majority of D&D fandom, old and new, has always, and continues to, play nothing but official D&D.

But the past eight years or so Wotzi D&D has gotten even more "new" fans, that now probably outnumber the old hell or highwater D&D fans.

With all the new fans, Wotzi can well afford to ditch all the older fandom that might not be inclined to follow them to the OneVTT, if the new kids are able to be monetized the way Wotzi is hoping they can.

Not holding my breath for him to show where I mentioned the OSR...

I just think that it is pretty clear what direction Wotzi wants to take D&D, and they are betting that monetization will more than make up for any drop-off of fans that might occur along the way to their new digital future.

Quote from: Jaeger on May 14, 2023, 12:15:26 AM
Wotzi is betting that they can pull off what Blizzard did with Diablo Immortal.

The old audience, the group of fans that stuck with D&D through thick and thin don't matter.

What matters to Wotzi is can they monetize the new group of fans D&D has acquired in the past ten years?

Quote from: Jaeger on May 15, 2023, 03:44:11 AM
The overwhelming majority of D&D fans went running back to daddy Wotzi the second they gave them an excuse to with 5e.

If they went "running back" -- that means that they went away. Going away and then coming back later isn't sticking through thick and thin.

And that's a good thing. Gamers should leave if they don't like the current product, and come back if they like the new product. It's not a personal relationship where commitment is a virtue, and conversely, it's not a virtue for the company to show loyalty to the old guard.

One of the things that always bugs me about new RPG editions is when they get overwritten and complicated because they're written to the die-hard fans, and become less playable to new gamers as a result.

Quote from: Jaeger on May 17, 2023, 01:05:44 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 16, 2023, 07:33:27 PM
Where's the quote? Can you provide a quote of him saying that? Or are you just being a liar again?

What could ever give you the idea that he would be disingenuous in any way?


I said this:

REPLY#6:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-dd-tv-network/msg1253938/#msg1253938

Quote from: Jaeger on May 14, 2023, 12:15:26 AM
This, along with the OneVTT are a bet.

Wotzi is betting that they can pull off what Blizzard did with Diablo Immortal.

The old audience, the group of fans that stuck with D&D through thick and thin don't matter.

What matters to Wotzi is can they monetize the new group of fans D&D has acquired in the past ten years?

One that lives off of vapid and twee engagement, one that has never known a game that has not had DLC and microtransaction content.

All the old Diablo fans HATE Diablo Immortal.

And Blizzard doesn't care. Because Diablo Immortal is a cash cow making money hand over fist.

Fuck the old fans. In with the cash cow lifestyle-brand new fans...

Dude flew off the handle into a rant on the OSR saying this:

REPLY#17:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-dd-tv-network/msg1254006/#msg1254006

Quote from: Mistwell on May 14, 2023, 09:31:57 PM
That is quite the whopper you just told there.

Stuck with D&D through thick and thin? Y'all turned on D&D. The chips were down after 4e and it was you guys who bailed for the OSR and have been bashing D&D ever since. That's a DECADE now of bashing, at least. Which is why I am always surprised at this constant refrain that people who like the OSR are somehow victims of WOTC and WOTC abandoned you. You guys abandoned THEM, remember? They reached out again by hiring Pundit as a consultant, he got them to release Basic D&D and the starter set, and you guys still turned your back on them when they needed your support after what happened with 4e.

Let's not re-write history. WOTC "turned" on the old school players because for years and years the old school players have been turning on them and bashing them for literally anything they say or do and playing the victim. You declared yourselves not the WOTC audience and act offended when they shrug and treat you like you're not the audience.

Lest anyone actually buy into his intentionally conflationary word-salad; I laid it out:

REPLY#29:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-dd-tv-network/msg1254026/#msg1254026

Quote from: Jaeger on May 15, 2023, 03:44:11 AM
Exactly where in my post did I mention the OSR?

I'll wait for it...


Compared to official D&D: The OSR is a Side Show, and Everyone knows it.

The overwhelming majority of D&D fans went running back to daddy Wotzi the second they gave them an excuse to with 5e.

The overwhelming majority of D&D fandom, old and new, has always, and continues to, play nothing but official D&D.

But the past eight years or so Wotzi D&D has gotten even more "new" fans, that now probably outnumber the old hell or highwater D&D fans.

With all the new fans, Wotzi can well afford to ditch all the older fandom that might not be inclined to follow them to the OneVTT, if the new kids are able to be monetized the way Wotzi is hoping they can.

Not holding my breath for him to show where I mentioned the OSR...

I just think that it is pretty clear what direction Wotzi wants to take D&D, and they are betting that monetization will more than make up for any drop-off of fans that might occur along the way to their new digital future.

Yup.

I agree with your point that WotC has taken the corporate stance of sacrificing older fans/customers in order to entice new generations of fans/customers who will be mindless consumers of DnD product. This mindset was first demonstrated by WotC when they stopped producing 3.5 and wanted everyone to automatically jump to 4E, even to the point of WotC marketing strategy deliberately mocking older editions of their own game which still had an extensive fan/customer base.

Quote from: jhkim on May 17, 2023, 02:12:31 AM
And that's a good thing. Gamers should leave if they don't like the current product, and come back if they like the new product. It's not a personal relationship where commitment is a virtue, and conversely, it's not a virtue for the company to show loyalty to the old guard.

Most RPG companies are in the position of at least needing to keep their older fans placated.

Because they are the ones that make up your playing network, and introduce new players to the game.

Which is a very different thing from this:

Quote from: jhkim on May 17, 2023, 02:12:31 AM
One of the things that always bugs me about new RPG editions is when they get overwritten and complicated because they're written to the die-hard fans, and become less playable to new gamers as a result.

Yes, it is possible for an RPG to disappear up its own ass like GURPS, HERO, and Shadowrun.

But that is not the case here.

D&D has grown so much, so fast, Wotzi is in a position where they can shed vast swaths of their fandom, and still become more profitable than ever if they are able to successfully monetize the rest.

Which leads to:

Quote from: jhkim on May 17, 2023, 02:12:31 AM
If they went "running back" -- that means that they went away. Going away and then coming back later isn't sticking through thick and thin.

Full phrase: "running back to daddy Wotzi the second they gave them an excuse to"

To any other RPG company, the 4e debacle would have been a death sentence.

If it was any other RPG genre, the alternate game would have become ascendant.

We have seen this with games like Mutants and Masterminds pushing out Champions as the dominant superhero RPG.

But the majority of D&D fandom just wanted to play an official D&D they could recognize. (And once they got that; ALL was Forgiven!)


But this time around, things are very different for Wotzi.

The D&D fanbase has grown so much, that they don't need to even think about the older fandom like they had to do with their 4e-5e pivot.

They are betting that they can afford to actively shed them with their digital initiatives, and still remain insanely profitable.

I don't actually play D&D but I've have every core book from every edition.
I should think that is sticking with them as they got my coins.

Quote from: Jaeger on May 17, 2023, 01:05:44 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 16, 2023, 07:33:27 PM
Where's the quote? Can you provide a quote of him saying that? Or are you just being a liar again?

What could ever give you the idea that he would be disingenuous in any way?


I said this:

REPLY#6:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-dd-tv-network/msg1253938/#msg1253938

Quote from: Jaeger on May 14, 2023, 12:15:26 AM
This, along with the OneVTT are a bet.

Wotzi is betting that they can pull off what Blizzard did with Diablo Immortal.

The old audience, the group of fans that stuck with D&D through thick and thin don't matter.

What matters to Wotzi is can they monetize the new group of fans D&D has acquired in the past ten years?

One that lives off of vapid and twee engagement, one that has never known a game that has not had DLC and microtransaction content.

All the old Diablo fans HATE Diablo Immortal.

And Blizzard doesn't care. Because Diablo Immortal is a cash cow making money hand over fist.

Fuck the old fans. In with the cash cow lifestyle-brand new fans...

Dude flew off the handle into a rant on the OSR saying this:

REPLY#17:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-dd-tv-network/msg1254006/#msg1254006

Quote from: Mistwell on May 14, 2023, 09:31:57 PM
That is quite the whopper you just told there.

Stuck with D&D through thick and thin? Y'all turned on D&D. The chips were down after 4e and it was you guys who bailed for the OSR and have been bashing D&D ever since. That's a DECADE now of bashing, at least. Which is why I am always surprised at this constant refrain that people who like the OSR are somehow victims of WOTC and WOTC abandoned you. You guys abandoned THEM, remember? They reached out again by hiring Pundit as a consultant, he got them to release Basic D&D and the starter set, and you guys still turned your back on them when they needed your support after what happened with 4e.

Let's not re-write history. WOTC "turned" on the old school players because for years and years the old school players have been turning on them and bashing them for literally anything they say or do and playing the victim. You declared yourselves not the WOTC audience and act offended when they shrug and treat you like you're not the audience.

Lest anyone actually buy into his intentionally conflationary word-salad; I laid it out:

REPLY#29:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-dd-tv-network/msg1254026/#msg1254026

Quote from: Jaeger on May 15, 2023, 03:44:11 AM
Exactly where in my post did I mention the OSR?

I'll wait for it...


Compared to official D&D: The OSR is a Side Show, and Everyone knows it.

The overwhelming majority of D&D fans went running back to daddy Wotzi the second they gave them an excuse to with 5e.

The overwhelming majority of D&D fandom, old and new, has always, and continues to, play nothing but official D&D.

But the past eight years or so Wotzi D&D has gotten even more "new" fans, that now probably outnumber the old hell or highwater D&D fans.

With all the new fans, Wotzi can well afford to ditch all the older fandom that might not be inclined to follow them to the OneVTT, if the new kids are able to be monetized the way Wotzi is hoping they can.

Not holding my breath for him to show where I mentioned the OSR...

I just think that it is pretty clear what direction Wotzi wants to take D&D, and they are betting that monetization will more than make up for any drop-off of fans that might occur along the way to their new digital future.

I don't think it's unfair to conflate OSR with "old guard" but regardless that was never the point I was making and you damn well know it. You claimed the old guard (which supposedly has no overlap with the OSR) stuck though the game through thick and thin. Which you knew wasn't true - the old guard, as Jeff said, often left as soon as 3.5 was abandoned. Which is exactly the point I made (I even named 4e - which is the reason 3.5 ended). All of which you fully understand.

What you appear to really be doing is a "Look over there!" You have no response to the challenge to your claim that the old guard stayed with D&D through thick and thin (they did not) and so decided to play a linguistic game by focusing on the term "OSR" which was never my point to begin with. What a worm move.

Here is what really happened more often than not with the old guard (or however you want to characterize the group of people you're referring to): many left when 4e hit and returned in some fashion when 5e started. They did not stick with it through thick and thin - they took it when they liked it and ditched it when they didn't. They owed no loyalty to the game, much as the game owes no loyalty to them. It's a product, not a religion. But you're trying to pretend something was owed to this group of players by the game despite the group of players not feeling like they owed anything to it.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 14, 2023, 09:31:57 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on May 14, 2023, 12:15:26 AM
The old audience, the group of fans that stuck with D&D through thick and thin

That's a DECADE now of bashing, at least.

Here's to another decade, lads.