TheRPGSite

Hasbro seriously believes its going to make money off of 24 hours of Critical-Role Knock offs? Oh, and of course, cooking shows!
#dnd #ttrpg #osr

Everyone thought the GamesWorkShop network would be a joke... still going strong years latter with more content being added all the time.. https://warhammerplus.com/

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 13, 2023, 05:36:42 PM
Hasbro seriously believes its going to make money off of 24 hours of Critical-Role Knock offs? Oh, and of course, cooking shows!
#dnd #ttrpg #osr

Considering WotC's prefered player base are statistically unable to cook, they certainly are strangely obsessed with cooking. They're like eunuchs who are obsessed with porn.

Quote from: Summon666 on May 13, 2023, 08:26:55 PM
Everyone thought the GamesWorkShop network would be a joke... still going strong years latter with more content being added all the time.. https://warhammerplus.com/

Is this the thing that started in August of 2021?

Lets make a channel based on videos of table top games and then try to get out of the table top game businesses.

Maybe they'll try to cook the recipes from Leaves From the Inn of the Last Home.

This, along with the OneVTT are a bet.

Wotzi is betting that they can pull off what Blizzard did with Diablo Immortal.

The old audience, the group of fans that stuck with D&D through thick and thin don't matter.

What matters to Wotzi is can they monetize the new group of fans D&D has acquired in the past ten years?

One that lives off of vapid and twee engagement, one that has never known a game that has not had DLC and microtransaction content.

All the old Diablo fans HATE Diablo Immortal.

And Blizzard doesn't care. Because Diablo Immortal is a cash cow making money hand over fist.

Fuck the old fans. In with the cash cow lifestyle-brand new fans...

Quote from: Baron on May 13, 2023, 08:54:48 PM

Quote from: Summon666 on May 13, 2023, 08:26:55 PM
Everyone thought the GamesWorkShop network would be a joke... still going strong years latter with more content being added all the time.. https://warhammerplus.com/

Is this the thing that started in August of 2021?

The thing that can't manage to produce good content once per month.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 14, 2023, 12:38:30 AM

Quote from: Baron on May 13, 2023, 08:54:48 PM

Quote from: Summon666 on May 13, 2023, 08:26:55 PM
Everyone thought the GamesWorkShop network would be a joke... still going strong years latter with more content being added all the time.. https://warhammerplus.com/

Is this the thing that started in August of 2021?

The thing that can't manage to produce good content once per month.

That's not the point.. the point is that it is successful. People are paying for it, no idea who or why... but a LOT of people are. So the hasbro chan thing is less a "WTF why are they doing" this and a more "why is not more companies doing it".

Quote from: Summon666 on May 14, 2023, 01:09:41 AM
People are paying for it, no idea who or why... but a LOT of people are.

Source?

Quote from: Summon666 on May 13, 2023, 08:26:55 PM
Everyone thought the GamesWorkShop network would be a joke... still going strong years latter with more content being added all the time.. https://warhammerplus.com/

Thats because GW cultivated a cult mentality with its players.

Quote from: Omega on May 14, 2023, 02:17:40 AM

Quote from: Summon666 on May 13, 2023, 08:26:55 PM
Everyone thought the GamesWorkShop network would be a joke... still going strong years latter with more content being added all the time.. https://warhammerplus.com/

Thats because GW cultivated a cult mentality with its players.

yeah that is so unlike DnD. ; )

Looking forward to not seeing this 5e shit.

I still maintain that watching RPGs is not really a spectator sport. For me at least.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 14, 2023, 08:23:59 AM
Looking forward to not seeing this 5e shit.

I still maintain that watching RPGs is not really a spectator sport. For me at least.

Watching makes me want to play instead.

Quote from: Summon666 on May 14, 2023, 01:09:41 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 14, 2023, 12:38:30 AM

Quote from: Baron on May 13, 2023, 08:54:48 PM

Quote from: Summon666 on May 13, 2023, 08:26:55 PM
Everyone thought the GamesWorkShop network would be a joke... still going strong years latter with more content being added all the time.. https://warhammerplus.com/

Is this the thing that started in August of 2021?

The thing that can't manage to produce good content once per month.

That's not the point.. the point is that it is successful. People are paying for it, no idea who or why... but a LOT of people are. So the hasbro chan thing is less a "WTF why are they doing" this and a more "why is not more companies doing it".

Iirc Warhammer+ is currently losing money. Its just they poured a ton into it and they're trying to make it profitable.

Quote from: Summon666 on May 14, 2023, 03:04:19 AM

Quote from: Omega on May 14, 2023, 02:17:40 AM

Quote from: Summon666 on May 13, 2023, 08:26:55 PM
Everyone thought the GamesWorkShop network would be a joke... still going strong years latter with more content being added all the time.. https://warhammerplus.com/

Thats because GW cultivated a cult mentality with its players.

yeah that is so unlike DnD. ; )

It is. The only D&D "cult" I've seen is the OSR, who're obsessed with OD&D for reasons that have always eluded me, and only about the system itself, not the "lore" surrounding it, which is what you need to create most of this content. And those people went by the wayside decades ago.

I'm honestly not sure what cult appeal current D&D has. It has completely neglected its settings and the only thing it has released that I know about is a castrated version of Ravenloft and a truncated Spelljammer without ship combat that "fans" immediately lashed on to call "racist", now nobody gives a shit about. They haven't even released the Planescape books they've been taunting people for years with, and I'm sure it'll be crap and no one will give a crap about either. But WH has decades of lore and torrents of overpriced official miniatures for people to gobble up.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 14, 2023, 08:23:59 AM
I still maintain that watching RPGs is not really a spectator sport. For me at least.

Agreed. I would extend that to simple lay reports.  If you weren't there why would you care.

Quote from: Jaeger on May 14, 2023, 12:15:26 AM
The old audience, the group of fans that stuck with D&D through thick and thin

That is quite the whopper you just told there.

Stuck with D&D through thick and thin? Y'all turned on D&D. The chips were down after 4e and it was you guys who bailed for the OSR and have been bashing D&D ever since. That's a DECADE now of bashing, at least. Which is why I am always surprised at this constant refrain that people who like the OSR are somehow victims of WOTC and WOTC abandoned you. You guys abandoned THEM, remember? They reached out again by hiring Pundit as a consultant, he got them to release Basic D&D and the starter set, and you guys still turned your back on them when they needed your support after what happened with 4e.

Let's not re-write history. WOTC "turned" on the old school players because for years and years the old school players have been turning on them and bashing them for literally anything they say or do and playing the victim. You declared yourselves not the WOTC audience and act offended when they shrug and treat you like you're not the audience.

You're painting with pretty broad strokes to make your point. There are plenty of folks who play 5e and also play older editions, OSR games and even non-D&D games. There are also players who anticipated 5e and then didn't like it. Remember when 5e D&D Next was supposed to be compatible with all editions? You imagine that some folks didn't get ticked when that didn't happen? Oh, and don't forget how WOTC likes to bad mouth older players and editions now. So, not quite so black and white, is it?

Quote from: Mistwell on May 14, 2023, 09:31:57 PM
Let's not re-write history.

Then why are you bothering to post?

Won't somebody think of WotC? Why did you guys betray it when it needed you the most? How could you?!?  :'(

How dare you guys play the victim when you left it like a wounded animal then stumped on it when it was trying to get back up? You heartless brutes!  >:(

Quote from: Slambo on May 14, 2023, 09:22:34 AM

Quote from: Summon666 on May 14, 2023, 01:09:41 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 14, 2023, 12:38:30 AM

Quote from: Baron on May 13, 2023, 08:54:48 PM

Quote from: Summon666 on May 13, 2023, 08:26:55 PM
Everyone thought the GamesWorkShop network would be a joke... still going strong years latter with more content being added all the time.. https://warhammerplus.com/

Is this the thing that started in August of 2021?

The thing that can't manage to produce good content once per month.

That's not the point.. the point is that it is successful. People are paying for it, no idea who or why... but a LOT of people are. So the hasbro chan thing is less a "WTF why are they doing" this and a more "why is not more companies doing it".

Iirc Warhammer+ is currently losing money. Its just they poured a ton into it and they're trying to make it profitable.

They intimidated all the content creators on YT to come work for them (some did), they're putting out shit, I would need to go search for the Arch video where he shows the quality of their animation, but I'll leave you this one instead:



Part of their content includes (believe it or not) miniature painting tutorials, of which you can find thousands for free on YT.

I very much doubt they are making ANY money, but I'll gladly eat crow if anyone can show proof to the contrary (GW swearing by the Emperor they are isn't proof mind you).

The streaming wars are over, everybody is collapsing/cutting costs, so OF COURSE this is the time GWotKKK chooses to launch theirs...

Disney just had their stock downgraded, Netflix is also cutting down, HBO is in the same boat, and those have more genres at their dispossal than D&D.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 15, 2023, 12:19:21 AMThey intimidated all the content creators on YT to come work for them (some did)

I agree, I think this is the main goal. With uTube getting more strange with content banning and how the payout works. It is less and less possible for tubers to make money unless the channel is super large... and in most cases the money is still coming from donations like Pateron or Sponsored Content (which uTube takes a cut of). This is why people are moving back to dailyMotion and Vemo again, as they are a lot like oldTube... you can post almost anything there, not sure how they get away with it and they have much higher payouts... but literally millions and millions less traffic and clicks.

So it is attractive to a youtuber to get a big company like GamesWorkshop or Hasbro to pay them an actually wage and give them acess to all the pre-release content. This is how GamesWorkshop dose it, and I am sure Hasbro will as well. They'll stop sending magic cards out to people or DnD books forcing the tubers to buy them themselves, meanwhile hosting shows on the channel.. which I am willing to bet will be part of the top tier DnDBeyond sub and actually already be available to many users of that service....

Quote from: Summon666 on May 15, 2023, 01:16:15 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 15, 2023, 12:19:21 AMThey intimidated all the content creators on YT to come work for them (some did)

I agree, I think this is the main goal. With uTube getting more strange with content banning and how the payout works. It is less and less possible for tubers to make money unless the channel is super large... and in most cases the money is still coming from donations like Pateron or Sponsored Content (which uTube takes a cut of). This is why people are moving back to dailyMotion and Vemo again, as they are a lot like oldTube... you can post almost anything there, not sure how they get away with it and they have much higher payouts... but literally millions and millions less traffic and clicks.

So it is attractive to a youtuber to get a big company like GamesWorkshop or Hasbro to pay them an actually wage and give them acess to all the pre-release content. This is how GamesWorkshop dose it, and I am sure Hasbro will as well. They'll stop sending magic cards out to people or DnD books forcing the tubers to buy them themselves, meanwhile hosting shows on the channel.. which I am willing to bet will be part of the top tier DnDBeyond sub and actually already be available to many users of that service....

Streaming is collapsing, there's not enough money for all of them, if HBO, Disney, Netflix, etc are having to size down (with more diverse content that appeals to different sectors {Except Disney}) what do you think will happen to Warhammer+ or the D&D thingy?

Arch has ZERO overhead to produce a lore video, GW has big fixed costs BEFORE producing anything, same for D&D, it's not something they can absorv.

Why do you think GWotKKK wanted the new OGL? to extract money from independent creators, if they were smart they would choose one or two animators and make a deal with them for the rights of Strahd or something like that. Where they get 50% of whatever the channel gets from those animations. Zero overhead or risk, pure profit.

Like I say WH+ isn't making ANY money (change my mind) and the D&D thingy won't either. And Critical Role is about to ditch them and release TWO RPGs.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 15, 2023, 01:54:29 AMLike I say WH+ isn't making ANY money (change my mind) and the D&D thingy won't either.

None of the streaming services pull a profit, apart from Netflix and they lost billions for years. I mean, Amazon didn't pull a profit until 2004. People outside big businesses tend to think in red and black, but that is not how big business works. Dinsey+, Paramount+ or w/e all collectively lost billions on their services, but that does not mean they were not successful in those final years.

WH+ is making them money due to it focused usage. I think it only has a few 100 thousand subs, but the content costs nearly nothing. Just some googling should bring up a lot of results to confirm this. I know that they are expanding it, so there must be some data to support that.

The thing with WOTC is that I believe the subscription will be part of DnDBeyond. So unlike WH+ which is an additional thing you get, many, many users will already have access to it as part of their normal subscription. This could easily make it integrate very well into the online community they are trying to build. If people get used to it, log into DnDBeyond, then click to get a lore video from the writer of the latest book they are playing though... when that becomes "normal" it could lead to something big for them.

Personally, I left WoTC behind in the 90s. It baffles me people play DnD to be honest, and the idea of paying for an online subscription for it is crazy to me. That being said, I think the idea of streaming services is not as farfetched as some people in this thread are making out. Remember, most of the big tubers only exist due to patron and advertising... which is not much different as subbing to an official stream, a stream I suspect many DnDBeyond users will already have access to.

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 14, 2023, 10:24:30 PM
Won't somebody think of WotC? Why did you guys betray it when it needed you the most? How could you?!?  :'(

I am not the one who made the claim they "stuck with it through thick and thin."

It's baloney. Y'all bailed years and years ago.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 15, 2023, 12:27:22 AM
The streaming wars are over, everybody is collapsing/cutting costs, so OF COURSE this is the time GWotKKK chooses to launch theirs...

Disney just had their stock downgraded, Netflix is also cutting down, HBO is in the same boat, and those have more genres at their dispossal than D&D.

I could be wrong but I am pretty sure this isn't that kind of streaming. It's not going to be a service you get directly to your TV through a subscription like Netflix (though, again, I could be wrong in that guess). I am guessing it's going to be a Twitch channel or something like that. They're just expanding what they've been doing for years into an "official" 24 hour stream rather than just releasing shows here and there.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 15, 2023, 02:25:00 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 14, 2023, 10:24:30 PM
Won't somebody think of WotC? Why did you guys betray it when it needed you the most? How could you?!?  :'(

I am not the one who made the claim they "stuck with it through thick and thin."

Who did? Can you quote them?

Quote from: Mistwell on May 14, 2023, 09:31:57 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on May 14, 2023, 12:15:26 AM
The old audience, the group of fans that stuck with D&D through thick and thin

That is quite the whopper you just told there.

Stuck with D&D through thick and thin? Y'all turned on D&D. The chips were down after 4e and it was you guys who bailed for the OSR and have been bashing D&D ever since. That's a DECADE now of bashing, at least. Which is why I am always surprised at this constant refrain that people who like the OSR are somehow victims of WOTC and WOTC abandoned you. You guys abandoned THEM, remember? They reached out again by hiring Pundit as a consultant, he got them to release Basic D&D and the starter set, and you guys still turned your back on them when they needed your support after what happened with 4e.

Let's not re-write history. WOTC "turned" on the old school players because for years and years the old school players have been turning on them and bashing them for literally anything they say or do and playing the victim. You declared yourselves not the WOTC audience and act offended when they shrug and treat you like you're not the audience.

Exactly where in my post did I mention the OSR?

I'll wait for it...


Compared to official D&D: The OSR is a Side Show, and Everyone knows it.

The overwhelming majority of D&D fans went running back to daddy Wotzi the second they gave them an excuse to with 5e.

The overwhelming majority of D&D fandom, old and new, has always, and continues to, play nothing but official D&D.

But the past eight years or so Wotzi D&D has gotten even more "new" fans, that now probably outnumber the old hell or highwater D&D fans.

With all the new fans, Wotzi can well afford to ditch all the older fandom that might not be inclined to follow them to the OneVTT, if the new kids are able to be monetized the way Wotzi is hoping they can.

Greetings!

Hmmm...what's with the exhortation to mindlessly follow WOTC and their current edition of D&D?
Some people may think that *Grognards* or "True Fans" must show their loyalty by always swallowing down whatever WOTC is serving up.

Ahh, no thank you.

I have AD&D, 3E, 3.5E, Talislanta, Warhammer FRP 1E, Warhammer FRP 2E, GURPS, Palladium, MERP, Rolemaster, RMSS, Elric!, Pendragon, D&D 5E, and now the OSR ShadowDark.

I don't need "One D&D". I am no longer WOTC's audience or prime demographic--and well, guess what? WOTC's "One D&D" does not need to be my game, at all. Fuck them. I can happily support the OSR with my GOLD. Looking at my disposable income, customer buying track record, and my mutiple bookcases full of game books--WOTC is the one losing out in this arrangement--certainly not me.

WOTC and their "One D&D" and their stupid 24-hour TV program can POUND SAND!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I don't even watch other people play on the internet which is free. Why would I pay for it?

Quote from: Summon666 on May 15, 2023, 02:10:16 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 15, 2023, 01:54:29 AMLike I say WH+ isn't making ANY money (change my mind) and the D&D thingy won't either.

None of the streaming services pull a profit, apart from Netflix and they lost billions for years. I mean, Amazon didn't pull a profit until 2004. People outside big businesses tend to think in red and black, but that is not how big business works. Dinsey+, Paramount+ or w/e all collectively lost billions on their services, but that does not mean they were not successful in those final years.

WH+ is making them money due to it focused usage. I think it only has a few 100 thousand subs, but the content costs nearly nothing. Just some googling should bring up a lot of results to confirm this. I know that they are expanding it, so there must be some data to support that.

The thing with WOTC is that I believe the subscription will be part of DnDBeyond. So unlike WH+ which is an additional thing you get, many, many users will already have access to it as part of their normal subscription. This could easily make it integrate very well into the online community they are trying to build. If people get used to it, log into DnDBeyond, then click to get a lore video from the writer of the latest book they are playing though... when that becomes "normal" it could lead to something big for them.

Personally, I left WoTC behind in the 90s. It baffles me people play DnD to be honest, and the idea of paying for an online subscription for it is crazy to me. That being said, I think the idea of streaming services is not as farfetched as some people in this thread are making out. Remember, most of the big tubers only exist due to patron and advertising... which is not much different as subbing to an official stream, a stream I suspect many DnDBeyond users will already have access to.

This sounds like a lot of assumptions based on things you assure us must be backed by something on the internet, but haven't bothered researching yourself.

The fact that Amazon lost money before it became a juggernaut doesn't mean that Hasbro/WotC can afford a new streaming service when they've been doing badly and already had to sell off their movie division. Or that people will be swarming to it in this oversaturated market, where everyone and their mother wants to start a streaming service now, like people can afford a hundred separate specialized streaming services that cost more than Netflix does.

And there's a difference between people having the option to drop a buck a month to someone's Patron when they can still watch their content free on YT anyways, which helps generate ad revenue and engagement to keep those creators relevant, even if only a fraction of their viewers pay.

WotC isn't even providing anything that hasn't already existed for free in the internet for decades now, posted by people who do it better than them.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 15, 2023, 02:25:00 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 14, 2023, 10:24:30 PM
Won't somebody think of WotC? Why did you guys betray it when it needed you the most? How could you?!?  :'(

I am not the one who made the claim they "stuck with it through thick and thin."

It's baloney. Y'all bailed years and years ago.

I agree! These people abandoned WotC like a teen aged mother dropping her baby outside a firehouse. They're heatless lunatics!

Quote from: Mistwell on May 15, 2023, 02:28:30 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 15, 2023, 12:27:22 AM
The streaming wars are over, everybody is collapsing/cutting costs, so OF COURSE this is the time GWotKKK chooses to launch theirs...

Disney just had their stock downgraded, Netflix is also cutting down, HBO is in the same boat, and those have more genres at their dispossal than D&D.

I could be wrong but I am pretty sure this isn't that kind of streaming. It's not going to be a service you get directly to your TV through a subscription like Netflix (though, again, I could be wrong in that guess). I am guessing it's going to be a Twitch channel or something like that. They're just expanding what they've been doing for years into an "official" 24 hour stream rather than just releasing shows here and there.

They still HAVE TO pay the people doing the shows, it's not like some guy in their kitchen doing a video about D&D, and you can bet they'll have people working the camera, probably sets, all of those are fixed costs your regular guy doing videos doesn't have.

So, it's a money sinking enterprise.

Quote from: Summon666 on May 15, 2023, 02:10:16 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 15, 2023, 01:54:29 AMLike I say WH+ isn't making ANY money (change my mind) and the D&D thingy won't either.

None of the streaming services pull a profit, apart from Netflix and they lost billions for years. I mean, Amazon didn't pull a profit until 2004. People outside big businesses tend to think in red and black, but that is not how big business works. Dinsey+, Paramount+ or w/e all collectively lost billions on their services, but that does not mean they were not successful in those final years.

WH+ is making them money due to it focused usage. I think it only has a few 100 thousand subs, but the content costs nearly nothing. Just some googling should bring up a lot of results to confirm this. I know that they are expanding it, so there must be some data to support that.

The thing with WOTC is that I believe the subscription will be part of DnDBeyond. So unlike WH+ which is an additional thing you get, many, many users will already have access to it as part of their normal subscription. This could easily make it integrate very well into the online community they are trying to build. If people get used to it, log into DnDBeyond, then click to get a lore video from the writer of the latest book they are playing though... when that becomes "normal" it could lead to something big for them.

Personally, I left WoTC behind in the 90s. It baffles me people play DnD to be honest, and the idea of paying for an online subscription for it is crazy to me. That being said, I think the idea of streaming services is not as farfetched as some people in this thread are making out. Remember, most of the big tubers only exist due to patron and advertising... which is not much different as subbing to an official stream, a stream I suspect many DnDBeyond users will already have access to.

Weren't you the guy that said it was a success? Yes you did:

Quote from: Slambo on May 14, 2023, 09:22:34 AM

Quote from: Summon666 on May 14, 2023, 01:09:41 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 14, 2023, 12:38:30 AM

Quote from: Baron on May 13, 2023, 08:54:48 PM

Quote from: Summon666 on May 13, 2023, 08:26:55 PM
Everyone thought the GamesWorkShop network would be a joke... still going strong years latter with more content being added all the time.. https://warhammerplus.com/

Is this the thing that started in August of 2021?

The thing that can't manage to produce good content once per month.

That's not the point.. the point is that it is successful. People are paying for it, no idea who or why... but a LOT of people are. So the hasbro chan thing is less a "WTF why are they doing" this and a more "why is not more companies doing it".

It's not a success, it's not making money, so you're either moving the goal post, or your definition of success is really weird.

Pundit sounds like he's trying not to collapse in helpless laughter. I can't blame him.

Honest to God, all I can think of is the absolute glut of video games that hit the market when Atari lost that lawsuit with Activision. It feels like the same thing with streaming.

And how is WotC going to fill the time slots of a twenty four hour channel? Why not start small, with a Twitch or YT channel, try to lure some existing creators with cash, and then expand?

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 15, 2023, 07:54:30 PM
Pundit sounds like he's trying not to collapse in helpless laughter. I can't blame him.

Honest to God, all I can think of is the absolute glut of video games that hit the market when Atari lost that lawsuit with Activision. It feels like the same thing with streaming.

And how is WotC going to fill the time slots of a twenty four hour channel? Why not start small, with a Twitch or YT channel, try to lure some existing creators with cash, and then expand?

Not counting the pure cringe (cooking shows? seriously?), what can they offer that isn't already out for free?

I can only think of a show, either animated (easier since you don't need CGI) or live action set in Faerun, get some cosplayers on board, get someone talented to write it (or adapt the novels that you can) and boom, you've got one hour per week.

Went into detail about my idea but they don't deserve it for free, hey WotC/Hasbro my idea gives you 1 show first year, 2 the next, 3 the next, etc. not counting re-runs, so if you're interested you know where to find me, make it worth my while.

But of course they're TOO stupid.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 15, 2023, 07:54:30 PM
Pundit sounds like he's trying not to collapse in helpless laughter. I can't blame him.

Honest to God, all I can think of is the absolute glut of video games that hit the market when Atari lost that lawsuit with Activision. It feels like the same thing with streaming.

And how is WotC going to fill the time slots of a twenty four hour channel? Why not start small, with a Twitch or YT channel, try to lure some existing creators with cash, and then expand?

This sounds like the management is in a panic at WotC. They managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory over the last few months, so now it is crunch time to show that they are not complete fuck ups - and they can't.

Honestly, cooking shows are a lot bigger draw than you think. The problem is... okay, you have a D&D stream, and a cooking show. Now what? Let's assume the D&D stream runs four hours, and the cooking show runs one hour. Still gotta fill nineteen more hours.

Animated adaptations of some of the best novels, or maybe 'behind the scenes' lore discussions, those would be pretty good. But I don't think it's gonna be enough. Remember, they want D&D mainstream. The whole nine yards of merchandising, much like how Star Wars practically redefined 'merch'. Especially after one fuck up after another on the part of upper management (though they'll never admit it).

Quote from: SHARK on May 15, 2023, 04:04:57 AM
Greetings!

Hmmm...what's with the exhortation to mindlessly follow WOTC and their current edition of D&D?
Some people may think that *Grognards* or "True Fans" must show their loyalty by always swallowing down whatever WOTC is serving up.

Ahh, no thank you.

I have AD&D, 3E, 3.5E, Talislanta, Warhammer FRP 1E, Warhammer FRP 2E, GURPS, Palladium, MERP, Rolemaster, RMSS, Elric!, Pendragon, D&D 5E, and now the OSR ShadowDark.

I don't need "One D&D". I am no longer WOTC's audience or prime demographic--and well, guess what? WOTC's "One D&D" does not need to be my game, at all. Fuck them. I can happily support the OSR with my GOLD. Looking at my disposable income, customer buying track record, and my mutiple bookcases full of game books--WOTC is the one losing out in this arrangement--certainly not me.

WOTC and their "One D&D" and their stupid 24-hour TV program can POUND SAND!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Come on man, don't you want to see a blue haired "lady" with a full beard with frosted purple tips make "Bahaumuts Frosted Balls" for their cooking show?  Don't you want to see the discount "freedom immigrant" copy of Critical Role do their D&D Campaign set in modern Mexico as they slay their dragons and make it to the promised land for welfare?  Wouldn't you want to watch "Fantasy Land Survivor" where they take pansexual D&D players from Seattle and put them 30 miles east of Seattle and they have to survive one night in the wilderness and they even encounter a coyote!

I expect this level of cringe from the channel, they have already confirmed cooking shows.  The only thing that will come of the channel will be streamers panning the shows and the inevitable sexual assault charge as one of the females says a girl with a lady dick made an inappropriate joke and she felt raped and wants him cancelled.  This is what Hasbro is going to do to D&D, God help D&D, it did not deserve this.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 15, 2023, 10:27:45 PM
Honestly, cooking shows are a lot bigger draw than you think. The problem is... okay, you have a D&D stream, and a cooking show. Now what? Let's assume the D&D stream runs four hours, and the cooking show runs one hour. Still gotta fill nineteen more hours.

Animated adaptations of some of the best novels, or maybe 'behind the scenes' lore discussions, those would be pretty good. But I don't think it's gonna be enough. Remember, they want D&D mainstream. The whole nine yards of merchandising, much like how Star Wars practically redefined 'merch'. Especially after one fuck up after another on the part of upper management (though they'll never admit it).

They need actual talent for a cooking show and they are also assuming that the average D&D player wants to watch someone cook a pancetta with a dragons face added onto it to make it D&D.  Hasbro is going to take an intern, give him a Betty Crocker cook book and tell him to create the show.

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 13, 2023, 08:37:25 PM
Considering WotC's prefered player base are statistically unable to cook, they certainly are strangely obsessed with cooking. They're like eunuchs who are obsessed with porn.

This is an simile.

Greetings!

COOKING? COOKING SHOWS? WTF?

What the EFF do I need "Cooking Shows" from WOTC, when I can watch Mr. Gordon Ramsey or Guy Fierri?

I've been watching Ramsey and Fierri for years now. Beyond that, I know my way around the grill just fine.

COOKING SHOWS? From WOTC? Geesus. You gotta be kidding me. These people at WOTC are such clowns. So pathetic and desperate to get on their knees.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Maybe the cooking show is accountants cooking the books to show this failure as a commercial success?

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 16, 2023, 12:25:57 AM

Quote from: SHARK on May 15, 2023, 04:04:57 AM
Greetings!

Hmmm...what's with the exhortation to mindlessly follow WOTC and their current edition of D&D?
Some people may think that *Grognards* or "True Fans" must show their loyalty by always swallowing down whatever WOTC is serving up.

Ahh, no thank you.

I have AD&D, 3E, 3.5E, Talislanta, Warhammer FRP 1E, Warhammer FRP 2E, GURPS, Palladium, MERP, Rolemaster, RMSS, Elric!, Pendragon, D&D 5E, and now the OSR ShadowDark.

I don't need "One D&D". I am no longer WOTC's audience or prime demographic--and well, guess what? WOTC's "One D&D" does not need to be my game, at all. Fuck them. I can happily support the OSR with my GOLD. Looking at my disposable income, customer buying track record, and my mutiple bookcases full of game books--WOTC is the one losing out in this arrangement--certainly not me.

WOTC and their "One D&D" and their stupid 24-hour TV program can POUND SAND!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Come on man, don't you want to see a blue haired "lady" with a full beard with frosted purple tips make "Bahaumuts Frosted Balls" for their cooking show?  Don't you want to see the discount "freedom immigrant" copy of Critical Role do their D&D Campaign set in modern Mexico as they slay their dragons and make it to the promised land for welfare?  Wouldn't you want to watch "Fantasy Land Survivor" where they take pansexual D&D players from Seattle and put them 30 miles east of Seattle and they have to survive one night in the wilderness and they even encounter a coyote!

I expect this level of cringe from the channel, they have already confirmed cooking shows.  The only thing that will come of the channel will be streamers panning the shows and the inevitable sexual assault charge as one of the females says a girl with a lady dick made an inappropriate joke and she felt raped and wants him cancelled.  This is what Hasbro is going to do to D&D, God help D&D, it did not deserve this.

Greetings!

Yeah, HoneydipperDavid, it is sad seeing what WOTC is doing to D&D. "It did not deserve this." Damn, you know? So true, man. So true!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Playing games live and unscripted on stream would be very dangerous, as we saw with the whole Adam Koebel thing, so I can understand why they would prefer the alternative. I guess it might work for them if they can get enough paying viewers but it's not going to do anything for the D&D brand. And they'll still be open to other problems, like when one of their cast is outed for something they've done off stream to piss off the social media puritans.

I at least am doing pretty OK on youtube. The monetization on youtube is not huge, I could lose it all and not really be hurt by it, but it's also not nothing (it's typically in the range between $100-200USD). But of course, the main commercial importance of Youtube for me is that it bring attention to my books.

out of curiosity.....

Do you do paid sponsor content?
If WoTC approached you and offered you a sallery to make your videos, what would it take for you to consider it?

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 15, 2023, 03:25:49 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 15, 2023, 02:25:00 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 14, 2023, 10:24:30 PM
Won't somebody think of WotC? Why did you guys betray it when it needed you the most? How could you?!?  :'(

I am not the one who made the claim they "stuck with it through thick and thin."

Who did? Can you quote them?

I already did Jeff. It was Jaeger.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on May 15, 2023, 08:08:06 AM
I don't even watch other people play on the internet which is free. Why would I pay for it?

It's slated to be a FAST streaming station (Free Advertising Supported TV)

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 15, 2023, 08:29:49 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 15, 2023, 07:54:30 PM
Pundit sounds like he's trying not to collapse in helpless laughter. I can't blame him.

Honest to God, all I can think of is the absolute glut of video games that hit the market when Atari lost that lawsuit with Activision. It feels like the same thing with streaming.

And how is WotC going to fill the time slots of a twenty four hour channel? Why not start small, with a Twitch or YT channel, try to lure some existing creators with cash, and then expand?

Not counting the pure cringe (cooking shows? seriously?), what can they offer that isn't already out for free?

I can only think of a show, either animated (easier since you don't need CGI) or live action set in Faerun, get some cosplayers on board, get someone talented to write it (or adapt the novels that you can) and boom, you've got one hour per week.

Went into detail about my idea but they don't deserve it for free, hey WotC/Hasbro my idea gives you 1 show first year, 2 the next, 3 the next, etc. not counting re-runs, so if you're interested you know where to find me, make it worth my while.

But of course they're TOO stupid.

It IS free

Quote from: Mistwell on May 16, 2023, 07:16:19 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 15, 2023, 03:25:49 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 15, 2023, 02:25:00 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 14, 2023, 10:24:30 PM
Won't somebody think of WotC? Why did you guys betray it when it needed you the most? How could you?!?  :'(

I am not the one who made the claim they "stuck with it through thick and thin."

Who did? Can you quote them?

I already did Jeff. It was Jaeger.

Where's the quote? Can you provide a quote of him saying that? Or are you just being a liar again?

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 16, 2023, 07:33:27 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 16, 2023, 07:16:19 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 15, 2023, 03:25:49 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 15, 2023, 02:25:00 AM
I am not the one who made the claim they "stuck with it through thick and thin."

Who did? Can you quote them?

I already did Jeff. It was Jaeger.

Where's the quote? Can you provide a quote of him saying that? Or are you just being a liar again?

The quote is from Reply #6 (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-dd-tv-network/msg1253938/#msg1253938).

Quote from: Jaeger on May 14, 2023, 12:15:26 AM
Wotzi is betting that they can pull off what Blizzard did with Diablo Immortal.

The old audience, the group of fans that stuck with D&D through thick and thin don't matter.

What matters to Wotzi is can they monetize the new group of fans D&D has acquired in the past ten years?

I think most of the old audience dropped in and out regularly. That's certainly true of me. I never stuck with it or had any loyalty. It was just one of many games that I would play.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 16, 2023, 07:33:27 PM
Where's the quote? Can you provide a quote of him saying that? Or are you just being a liar again?

What could ever give you the idea that he would be disingenuous in any way?


I said this:

REPLY#6:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-dd-tv-network/msg1253938/#msg1253938

Quote from: Jaeger on May 14, 2023, 12:15:26 AM
This, along with the OneVTT are a bet.

Wotzi is betting that they can pull off what Blizzard did with Diablo Immortal.

The old audience, the group of fans that stuck with D&D through thick and thin don't matter.

What matters to Wotzi is can they monetize the new group of fans D&D has acquired in the past ten years?

One that lives off of vapid and twee engagement, one that has never known a game that has not had DLC and microtransaction content.

All the old Diablo fans HATE Diablo Immortal.

And Blizzard doesn't care. Because Diablo Immortal is a cash cow making money hand over fist.

Fuck the old fans. In with the cash cow lifestyle-brand new fans...

Dude flew off the handle into a rant on the OSR saying this:

REPLY#17:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-dd-tv-network/msg1254006/#msg1254006

Quote from: Mistwell on May 14, 2023, 09:31:57 PM
That is quite the whopper you just told there.

Stuck with D&D through thick and thin? Y'all turned on D&D. The chips were down after 4e and it was you guys who bailed for the OSR and have been bashing D&D ever since. That's a DECADE now of bashing, at least. Which is why I am always surprised at this constant refrain that people who like the OSR are somehow victims of WOTC and WOTC abandoned you. You guys abandoned THEM, remember? They reached out again by hiring Pundit as a consultant, he got them to release Basic D&D and the starter set, and you guys still turned your back on them when they needed your support after what happened with 4e.

Let's not re-write history. WOTC "turned" on the old school players because for years and years the old school players have been turning on them and bashing them for literally anything they say or do and playing the victim. You declared yourselves not the WOTC audience and act offended when they shrug and treat you like you're not the audience.

Lest anyone actually buy into his intentionally conflationary word-salad; I laid it out:

REPLY#29:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-dd-tv-network/msg1254026/#msg1254026

Quote from: Jaeger on May 15, 2023, 03:44:11 AM
Exactly where in my post did I mention the OSR?

I'll wait for it...


Compared to official D&D: The OSR is a Side Show, and Everyone knows it.

The overwhelming majority of D&D fans went running back to daddy Wotzi the second they gave them an excuse to with 5e.

The overwhelming majority of D&D fandom, old and new, has always, and continues to, play nothing but official D&D.

But the past eight years or so Wotzi D&D has gotten even more "new" fans, that now probably outnumber the old hell or highwater D&D fans.

With all the new fans, Wotzi can well afford to ditch all the older fandom that might not be inclined to follow them to the OneVTT, if the new kids are able to be monetized the way Wotzi is hoping they can.

Not holding my breath for him to show where I mentioned the OSR...

I just think that it is pretty clear what direction Wotzi wants to take D&D, and they are betting that monetization will more than make up for any drop-off of fans that might occur along the way to their new digital future.

Quote from: Jaeger on May 14, 2023, 12:15:26 AM
Wotzi is betting that they can pull off what Blizzard did with Diablo Immortal.

The old audience, the group of fans that stuck with D&D through thick and thin don't matter.

What matters to Wotzi is can they monetize the new group of fans D&D has acquired in the past ten years?

Quote from: Jaeger on May 15, 2023, 03:44:11 AM
The overwhelming majority of D&D fans went running back to daddy Wotzi the second they gave them an excuse to with 5e.

If they went "running back" -- that means that they went away. Going away and then coming back later isn't sticking through thick and thin.

And that's a good thing. Gamers should leave if they don't like the current product, and come back if they like the new product. It's not a personal relationship where commitment is a virtue, and conversely, it's not a virtue for the company to show loyalty to the old guard.

One of the things that always bugs me about new RPG editions is when they get overwritten and complicated because they're written to the die-hard fans, and become less playable to new gamers as a result.

Quote from: Jaeger on May 17, 2023, 01:05:44 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 16, 2023, 07:33:27 PM
Where's the quote? Can you provide a quote of him saying that? Or are you just being a liar again?

What could ever give you the idea that he would be disingenuous in any way?


I said this:

REPLY#6:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-dd-tv-network/msg1253938/#msg1253938

Quote from: Jaeger on May 14, 2023, 12:15:26 AM
This, along with the OneVTT are a bet.

Wotzi is betting that they can pull off what Blizzard did with Diablo Immortal.

The old audience, the group of fans that stuck with D&D through thick and thin don't matter.

What matters to Wotzi is can they monetize the new group of fans D&D has acquired in the past ten years?

One that lives off of vapid and twee engagement, one that has never known a game that has not had DLC and microtransaction content.

All the old Diablo fans HATE Diablo Immortal.

And Blizzard doesn't care. Because Diablo Immortal is a cash cow making money hand over fist.

Fuck the old fans. In with the cash cow lifestyle-brand new fans...

Dude flew off the handle into a rant on the OSR saying this:

REPLY#17:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-dd-tv-network/msg1254006/#msg1254006

Quote from: Mistwell on May 14, 2023, 09:31:57 PM
That is quite the whopper you just told there.

Stuck with D&D through thick and thin? Y'all turned on D&D. The chips were down after 4e and it was you guys who bailed for the OSR and have been bashing D&D ever since. That's a DECADE now of bashing, at least. Which is why I am always surprised at this constant refrain that people who like the OSR are somehow victims of WOTC and WOTC abandoned you. You guys abandoned THEM, remember? They reached out again by hiring Pundit as a consultant, he got them to release Basic D&D and the starter set, and you guys still turned your back on them when they needed your support after what happened with 4e.

Let's not re-write history. WOTC "turned" on the old school players because for years and years the old school players have been turning on them and bashing them for literally anything they say or do and playing the victim. You declared yourselves not the WOTC audience and act offended when they shrug and treat you like you're not the audience.

Lest anyone actually buy into his intentionally conflationary word-salad; I laid it out:

REPLY#29:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-dd-tv-network/msg1254026/#msg1254026

Quote from: Jaeger on May 15, 2023, 03:44:11 AM
Exactly where in my post did I mention the OSR?

I'll wait for it...


Compared to official D&D: The OSR is a Side Show, and Everyone knows it.

The overwhelming majority of D&D fans went running back to daddy Wotzi the second they gave them an excuse to with 5e.

The overwhelming majority of D&D fandom, old and new, has always, and continues to, play nothing but official D&D.

But the past eight years or so Wotzi D&D has gotten even more "new" fans, that now probably outnumber the old hell or highwater D&D fans.

With all the new fans, Wotzi can well afford to ditch all the older fandom that might not be inclined to follow them to the OneVTT, if the new kids are able to be monetized the way Wotzi is hoping they can.

Not holding my breath for him to show where I mentioned the OSR...

I just think that it is pretty clear what direction Wotzi wants to take D&D, and they are betting that monetization will more than make up for any drop-off of fans that might occur along the way to their new digital future.

Yup.

I agree with your point that WotC has taken the corporate stance of sacrificing older fans/customers in order to entice new generations of fans/customers who will be mindless consumers of DnD product. This mindset was first demonstrated by WotC when they stopped producing 3.5 and wanted everyone to automatically jump to 4E, even to the point of WotC marketing strategy deliberately mocking older editions of their own game which still had an extensive fan/customer base.

Quote from: jhkim on May 17, 2023, 02:12:31 AM
And that's a good thing. Gamers should leave if they don't like the current product, and come back if they like the new product. It's not a personal relationship where commitment is a virtue, and conversely, it's not a virtue for the company to show loyalty to the old guard.

Most RPG companies are in the position of at least needing to keep their older fans placated.

Because they are the ones that make up your playing network, and introduce new players to the game.

Which is a very different thing from this:

Quote from: jhkim on May 17, 2023, 02:12:31 AM
One of the things that always bugs me about new RPG editions is when they get overwritten and complicated because they're written to the die-hard fans, and become less playable to new gamers as a result.

Yes, it is possible for an RPG to disappear up its own ass like GURPS, HERO, and Shadowrun.

But that is not the case here.

D&D has grown so much, so fast, Wotzi is in a position where they can shed vast swaths of their fandom, and still become more profitable than ever if they are able to successfully monetize the rest.

Which leads to:

Quote from: jhkim on May 17, 2023, 02:12:31 AM
If they went "running back" -- that means that they went away. Going away and then coming back later isn't sticking through thick and thin.

Full phrase: "running back to daddy Wotzi the second they gave them an excuse to"

To any other RPG company, the 4e debacle would have been a death sentence.

If it was any other RPG genre, the alternate game would have become ascendant.

We have seen this with games like Mutants and Masterminds pushing out Champions as the dominant superhero RPG.

But the majority of D&D fandom just wanted to play an official D&D they could recognize. (And once they got that; ALL was Forgiven!)


But this time around, things are very different for Wotzi.

The D&D fanbase has grown so much, that they don't need to even think about the older fandom like they had to do with their 4e-5e pivot.

They are betting that they can afford to actively shed them with their digital initiatives, and still remain insanely profitable.

I don't actually play D&D but I've have every core book from every edition.
I should think that is sticking with them as they got my coins.

Quote from: Jaeger on May 17, 2023, 01:05:44 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 16, 2023, 07:33:27 PM
Where's the quote? Can you provide a quote of him saying that? Or are you just being a liar again?

What could ever give you the idea that he would be disingenuous in any way?


I said this:

REPLY#6:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-dd-tv-network/msg1253938/#msg1253938

Quote from: Jaeger on May 14, 2023, 12:15:26 AM
This, along with the OneVTT are a bet.

Wotzi is betting that they can pull off what Blizzard did with Diablo Immortal.

The old audience, the group of fans that stuck with D&D through thick and thin don't matter.

What matters to Wotzi is can they monetize the new group of fans D&D has acquired in the past ten years?

One that lives off of vapid and twee engagement, one that has never known a game that has not had DLC and microtransaction content.

All the old Diablo fans HATE Diablo Immortal.

And Blizzard doesn't care. Because Diablo Immortal is a cash cow making money hand over fist.

Fuck the old fans. In with the cash cow lifestyle-brand new fans...

Dude flew off the handle into a rant on the OSR saying this:

REPLY#17:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-dd-tv-network/msg1254006/#msg1254006

Quote from: Mistwell on May 14, 2023, 09:31:57 PM
That is quite the whopper you just told there.

Stuck with D&D through thick and thin? Y'all turned on D&D. The chips were down after 4e and it was you guys who bailed for the OSR and have been bashing D&D ever since. That's a DECADE now of bashing, at least. Which is why I am always surprised at this constant refrain that people who like the OSR are somehow victims of WOTC and WOTC abandoned you. You guys abandoned THEM, remember? They reached out again by hiring Pundit as a consultant, he got them to release Basic D&D and the starter set, and you guys still turned your back on them when they needed your support after what happened with 4e.

Let's not re-write history. WOTC "turned" on the old school players because for years and years the old school players have been turning on them and bashing them for literally anything they say or do and playing the victim. You declared yourselves not the WOTC audience and act offended when they shrug and treat you like you're not the audience.

Lest anyone actually buy into his intentionally conflationary word-salad; I laid it out:

REPLY#29:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-dd-tv-network/msg1254026/#msg1254026

Quote from: Jaeger on May 15, 2023, 03:44:11 AM
Exactly where in my post did I mention the OSR?

I'll wait for it...


Compared to official D&D: The OSR is a Side Show, and Everyone knows it.

The overwhelming majority of D&D fans went running back to daddy Wotzi the second they gave them an excuse to with 5e.

The overwhelming majority of D&D fandom, old and new, has always, and continues to, play nothing but official D&D.

But the past eight years or so Wotzi D&D has gotten even more "new" fans, that now probably outnumber the old hell or highwater D&D fans.

With all the new fans, Wotzi can well afford to ditch all the older fandom that might not be inclined to follow them to the OneVTT, if the new kids are able to be monetized the way Wotzi is hoping they can.

Not holding my breath for him to show where I mentioned the OSR...

I just think that it is pretty clear what direction Wotzi wants to take D&D, and they are betting that monetization will more than make up for any drop-off of fans that might occur along the way to their new digital future.

I don't think it's unfair to conflate OSR with "old guard" but regardless that was never the point I was making and you damn well know it. You claimed the old guard (which supposedly has no overlap with the OSR) stuck though the game through thick and thin. Which you knew wasn't true - the old guard, as Jeff said, often left as soon as 3.5 was abandoned. Which is exactly the point I made (I even named 4e - which is the reason 3.5 ended). All of which you fully understand.

What you appear to really be doing is a "Look over there!" You have no response to the challenge to your claim that the old guard stayed with D&D through thick and thin (they did not) and so decided to play a linguistic game by focusing on the term "OSR" which was never my point to begin with. What a worm move.

Here is what really happened more often than not with the old guard (or however you want to characterize the group of people you're referring to): many left when 4e hit and returned in some fashion when 5e started. They did not stick with it through thick and thin - they took it when they liked it and ditched it when they didn't. They owed no loyalty to the game, much as the game owes no loyalty to them. It's a product, not a religion. But you're trying to pretend something was owed to this group of players by the game despite the group of players not feeling like they owed anything to it.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 14, 2023, 09:31:57 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on May 14, 2023, 12:15:26 AM
The old audience, the group of fans that stuck with D&D through thick and thin

That's a DECADE now of bashing, at least.

Here's to another decade, lads.

Greetings!

Well, as I recall, D&D3E, (3.5E)--was strong, healthy, and going strong. WOTC pulling the plug of 3E was seen by *many* as a deep betrayal.

That's right, Baizuo rose to prominence by creating PATHFINDER.

That is how strong the hatred was for WOTC abandoning and killing 3E.

THEN, creating the dumpster fire that was 4E--that generated even MORE animosity from fans and customers. Many of which were of the "Old Guard" that had been faithfully supporting WOTC up until that point. 4E was seen as ANOTHER BETRAYAL by WOTC, by many, many Grognards.

It represented a huge push away from what the D&D game had always been. So, there are two main factors going here of betrayal, and growing animosity; (1) Killing 3E, and (2) Replacing 3E with the dumpster fire of 4E.

As long as we are discussing history, these key factors should be remembered why so many of the "Old Guard" left WOTC.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Hixanthrope on May 18, 2023, 12:20:54 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 14, 2023, 09:31:57 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on May 14, 2023, 12:15:26 AM
The old audience, the group of fans that stuck with D&D through thick and thin

That's a DECADE now of bashing, at least.

Here's to another decade, lads.

Greetings!

Here, Here! SKOL!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Stop LYING guys!

You can't stick by a game for decades since it's inception, staying through it's ups and downs across multiple editions and iterations, buying thousands of dollars worth of splat books and supplementary materials from each of them through the years, then leave after the company spits on you, abandons you as an audience and creates a new unrecognizable  "edition" of that game that targets a completely different audience from you. Only to the return again once that company puts out yet a newer edition of that game catering to you once more, and claim that you "stuck with D&D through thick and thin".

What about that ONE time you stopped being their BITCH for half a second then came back to them like a battered wife the moment that company gave the slightest indication that it wanted you back? WotC owes you NO loyalty after taking your dollars and your help spreading their brand, building the network effect for their game for decades on end, making it the only TTRPG the general public even knows about. You guys truly want to have your cake and eat it too, don't ya? You duplicitous swine!

Greetings!

"To Thine Own Self Be True." Ultimately, *I* am the customer. *I* am what is most important, and *I* am the priority. When WOTC, or any company, in any business, seems to forget that salient dynamic, *I* do not need to provide them with my business, my patronage, and my money. Certainly, they can change their "Market Focus". They can do so at their own financial and industry-ranking peril. It might be a move and an attitude that drives me away--and millions of other important customers that feel the same way. It is sometimes a longer process, of course--which can result in the company ultimately being severely diminished, or even going bankrupt.

The Market-place is littered with the shattered, defeated corpses of deceased companies--corporations that were at one time, vibrant, profitable, and relevant. No longer. Their executives have been fired. The corporations such as these have become extinct. Their owners, likewise either bankrupt themselves, or much diminished.

It is as simple as that. It is a lifespan and market environment for all corporations. *Shrugs* I'm not sure why accusations of "Lying!" or other proclamations of loyalty, disloyalty, and other such shrill nonsense are being thrown around.

Companies either do what the fuck I want, provide me with the service and products I want, or they can get fucked. Furthermore, beyond any particular product or service, the attitude they demonstrate is also important. If they give me the wrong attitude, they can get fucked too. How's that sound?

WOTC is not the only company under such obligation, and scrutiny. I have done the same thing with other companies in entirely different fields, such as Hewlitt Packard, a major computer company, and various restaurants. When such companies change their food service, or their product line, or just get stupid with giving me a fucked up attitude, they are fucking DONE. I haven't provided these businesses with my patronage since.

I will also be sure to loudly and stridently tell all of my friends not to patronize such companies.

That is the bottom line. Companies are free to fuck around and find out.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

This has got to be the worst time to get into the streaming/channel game. Most people I know are fed up with services offering a narrow range of things on their platforms (ten years ago there used to be a lot more on each individual one).

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2023, 08:12:09 AM
It is as simple as that. It is a lifespan and market environment for all corporations. *Shrugs* I'm not sure why accusations of "Lying!" or other proclamations of loyalty, disloyalty, and other such shrill nonsense are being thrown around.

Companies either do what the fuck I want, provide me with the service and products I want, or they can get fucked. Furthermore, beyond any particular product or service, the attitude they demonstrate is also important. If they give me the wrong attitude, they can get fucked too. How's that sound?

I agree. There's talk about customer-to-company as if it's some sort of personal committed relationship. Loyalty to a company -- sticking to it through thick and thin -- isn't some sort of virtue that deserves reward.

From my side, I'm not going to keep buying from a company if they don't give service or products that I want. I don't owe them anything.

From the company's side, they don't owe me anything either. If they can make more money selling different product to different people, then good for them. We can part ways.

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2023, 10:33:41 AM

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2023, 08:12:09 AM
It is as simple as that. It is a lifespan and market environment for all corporations. *Shrugs* I'm not sure why accusations of "Lying!" or other proclamations of loyalty, disloyalty, and other such shrill nonsense are being thrown around.

Companies either do what the fuck I want, provide me with the service and products I want, or they can get fucked. Furthermore, beyond any particular product or service, the attitude they demonstrate is also important. If they give me the wrong attitude, they can get fucked too. How's that sound?

I agree. There's talk about customer-to-company as if it's some sort of personal committed relationship. Loyalty to a company -- sticking to it through thick and thin -- isn't some sort of virtue that deserves reward.

From my side, I'm not going to keep buying from a company if they don't give service or products that I want. I don't owe them anything.

From the company's side, they don't owe me anything either. If they can make more money selling different product to different people, then good for them. We can part ways.

Greetings!

Yeah! Exactly, Jhkim! Companies are typically arrogant, greedy, and worthless. Obviously, some companies are different though. I have long since lost any vague hopes that I had for WOTC having a soul.

Smaller companies? Well, yeah. They can be a very different animal. My local auto shop? I've known the owner and his brother for years now. Their work has been consistently good, and trustworthy. The owner doesn't BS me, and has done things that look out for my best interest--even when he has not charged me specifically for various work. He's ust been an outstanding gentleman, and a top-shelf professional mechanic. I am *loyal* to him, and only take my Mercedes SUV to another shop when he hasn't been able to do the special work--I got special, all-weather tires from another shop, a specialty tire shop--that he personally recommended me to, and sent me to.

Likewise, I go to several local restaurants for example--I either know the owners or the managers, and have been a customer and patron for years. They consistently provide great food, and *excellent* service to me, each and every time I show up. They know my name, and typically make me what I want, right when I walk in the door, before I actually order anything. They just hook me up and come over and start chatting with me immediately. My food is right on the way. Or the special coffee I like, she has fired up and already making. I know these people. I see them, to their face, several times a week.

That is not WOTC though.

You are entrely right not to patronize a business that doesn't provide the products or services you want, or if they embrace an attitude that you find unacceptable. Poor customer service is a reality. Consumer choice, and financial patronage is how the *customer* stomps on the company, and checks them. They either get with the program, or we,the customers, go somewhere else.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Mistwell on May 17, 2023, 08:40:47 PM
I don't think it's unfair to conflate OSR with "old guard" ...

You openly admit to be confalationary and disingenuous, but you feel it's OK when you do it.

What a howler!!! You just can't make this stuff up...


I think most everyone else here has had no issues understanding the overall point of my posts:

Quote from: A useful example not directed at any particular poster on May 18, 2023, 06:40:03 AM
...
What about that ONE time you stopped being their BITCH for half a second then came back to them like a battered wife the moment that company gave the slightest indication that it wanted you back? ...

Were I to say: "A battered wife stuck with her husband through thick and thin, coming back to him everytime he said he was sorry"

Everyone would understand exactly what I meant.   

Only semantic nazi's looking to score rhetorical 'gotcha' points would harp on and on about: "But she went to her sisters one time for a whole week after he hit her, that's not what through thick and thin means!!!!!"

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2023, 10:33:41 AM
...

...There's talk about customer-to-company as if it's some sort of personal committed relationship. Loyalty to a company -- sticking to it through thick and thin -- isn't some sort of virtue that deserves reward.
...

Agreed, for it is no virtue at all.

But what cannot be denied is that tons of people still love, love, love, their favorite RPG Ip in RPG land.

We have seen this irrational loyalty time and time again.

Naturally, everyone here is a free-thinking iconoclast, and no filthy corporation is ever gonna tell them what to do.

But out in RPG land; You can find people singing the praises of the new Spelljammer setting...

Quote from: Jaeger on May 18, 2023, 01:32:55 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 18, 2023, 06:40:03 AM
What about that ONE time you stopped being their BITCH for half a second then came back to them like a battered wife the moment that company gave the slightest indication that it wanted you back? WotC owes you NO loyalty after taking your dollars and your help spreading their brand, building the network effect for their game for decades on end, making it the only TTRPG the general public even knows about.

Were I to say: "A battered wife stuck with her husband through thick and thin, coming back to him everytime he said he was sorry"

Everyone would understand exactly what I meant.   

Only semantic nazi's looking to score rhetorical 'gotcha' points would harp on and on about: "But she went to her sisters one time for a whole week after he hit her, that's not what through thick and thin means!!!!!"

I agree that there is irrational brand loyalty, but playing D&D is not the equivalent of being a battered spouse, and leaving for 6 years is not the equivalent of one week.

Yeah, people often have irrational loyalty to corporate brands like Coca-Cola, McDonald's, or Apple. And within RPGs, that's loyalty to D&D - or even if not D&D, then very close alternatives like Pathfinder or retro-clones. I often wish that it was easier to find players for less well-known RPGs like Hellcats & Hockeysticks, or Blue Planet, etc. But that's life.


Lots of people play D&D as a simple fun activity, without discussing it daily on forums, following social media news, and/or knowing publishing details. I don't think they're pitiable battered wives or anything. They're having fun playing a fun game. I haven't bought anything from WotC since the OGL fiasco, but I'm still running a 5th edition game.

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2023, 03:44:46 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on May 18, 2023, 01:32:55 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 18, 2023, 06:40:03 AM
What about that ONE time you stopped being their BITCH for half a second then came back to them like a battered wife the moment that company gave the slightest indication that it wanted you back? WotC owes you NO loyalty after taking your dollars and your help spreading their brand, building the network effect for their game for decades on end, making it the only TTRPG the general public even knows about.

Were I to say: "A battered wife stuck with her husband through thick and thin, coming back to him everytime he said he was sorry"

Everyone would understand exactly what I meant.   

Only semantic nazi's looking to score rhetorical 'gotcha' points would harp on and on about: "But she went to her sisters one time for a whole week after he hit her, that's not what through thick and thin means!!!!!"

I agree that there is irrational brand loyalty, but playing D&D is not the equivalent of being a battered spouse, and leaving for 6 years is not the equivalent of one week.

Yeah, people often have irrational loyalty to corporate brands like Coca-Cola, McDonald's, or Apple. And within RPGs, that's loyalty to D&D - or even if not D&D, then very close alternatives like Pathfinder or retro-clones. I often wish that it was easier to find players for less well-known RPGs like Hellcats & Hockeysticks, or Blue Planet, etc. But that's life.


Lots of people play D&D as a simple fun activity, without discussing it daily on forums, following social media news, and/or knowing publishing details. I don't think they're pitiable battered wives or anything. They're having fun playing a fun game. I haven't bought anything from WotC since the OGL fiasco, but I'm still running a 5th edition game.

Greetings!

That's a good observation, Jhkim. You may find it difficult to believe--but not all of my friends are just like me. They certainly share my same values, but some of them are just, a different temperament. They are not often online, and when they are, it isn't to look after game stuff. Some of my friends are very busy with their wives, raising kids, and worried about how they are going to get the upcoming concrete project up and running properly, and running their crews of workmen. I periodically stick them with current game news and events, but for some of them, much of it is just beyond their radar. They're like, "That's BS, man. Fuck WOTC!"--and then, they want to pour some whiskey, light up a cigar, and get to rolling dice. I have a nephew that is exactly that. He hates anything "Woke", and has very little patience for politics in general. He thinks everyone in politics are corrupt, evil slugs. But he does love D&D, and he wants to get rolling dice and killing stuff, and listening to my crazy lore and history. He's all ears for anything dealing with history, fantasy, my game world--but real-world business and political drama?--the man just has zero interest or patience for any of it.

Some of the women I play with, also, aren't keen on staying current with political or corporate drama, especially of WOTC. They vaguely know who Paizo is, and that's about it. They, like the nephew, love D&D, and love playing in my campaigns, but they aren't into a lot of these details like we are. They could care less about WOTC having a 24-hour TV channel, or streaming channel, or whatever. They won't care if it is wildly successful, or of it dies suddenly and gets ruthlessly destroyed and taken offline within a week. They won't care, because they have never heard of it, and are not interested in hearing about it to begin with.

They look forward to spending a weekend evening or a weeknight gaming--and the rest of the time, their headspace is not thinking about gaming at all, or what WOTC is doing, or not doing; hell, they are barely aware of what the OSR even is, and that's only because of me! *Laughing*

I don't pity them or look down on them for not having much of any kind of attitude towards WOTC. To them, WOTC is just some giant company that makes books and stuff for D&D. They wouldn't know who the fuck the lead designer of D&D is, or any of the people there at WOTC. I could have them sit at the table with us, and they'd be like, who's this doofus? *Laughing*

I guess I do have an appreciation for "Normies". Some people in our hobby seem to enjoy bashing them, or sneering at them, but I can think of many "Normies" that are fantastic gamers, and enjoy playing RPG's. No, they don't GM like I do--and they don't buy a bunch of books like I do. They do buy miniatures and paints though; they like buying dice; and they always bring food and drinks to our game sessions. And, for many months or years, they show up reliably every game session, to participate. They listen to me tell them about the game world. They make considerable notes about their characters, and they seek to play the game and their characters well.

I think people like that are welcome in our hobby.

As an aside, I honestly think that is certainly one reason that I enjoy talking with people here, as well as ranting and sometimes fighting about stuff. Many, many people *out here*--in Normie world--just don't care, or aren't interested in the hobby in the same manner that we are. It's weird. They have *passion* for the game; they LOVE RPG's, and playing. But they do not have the same *kind* of interest, if that makes sense.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2023, 03:44:46 PM
I agree that there is irrational brand loyalty, but playing D&D is not the equivalent of being a battered spouse, and leaving for 6 years is not the equivalent of one week.
...
Lots of people play D&D as a simple fun activity, without discussing it daily on forums, following social media news, and/or knowing publishing details. I don't think they're pitiable battered wives or anything. ...

LOL!

"But, but, That's not what one week means!!!"


Shakespeare: "All the world's a stage"

The usual suspects:

Usual Suspect #1: "Your claiming the world is flat like a stage now. Stupid Flat-Earthers like yourself...
Usual Suspect #2: "Not everyone has access to stages, and you don't need to be on one to perform, so I really don't see..."

Quote from: Summon666 on May 14, 2023, 03:04:19 AM

Quote from: Omega on May 14, 2023, 02:17:40 AM

Quote from: Summon666 on May 13, 2023, 08:26:55 PM
Everyone thought the GamesWorkShop network would be a joke... still going strong years latter with more content being added all the time.. https://warhammerplus.com/

Thats because GW cultivated a cult mentality with its players.

yeah that is so unlike DnD. ; )

So far, yes. wotc wants that sort of blind idiot consumerism cult GW has. But they keep botching it at every turn. How they hang onto their mtg fanatics is anyones guess.

Quote from: Omega on May 18, 2023, 04:34:23 PM
... yes. wotc wants that sort of blind idiot consumerism cult GW has. But they keep botching it at every turn. How they hang onto their mtg fanatics is anyone's guess.

Yet even their botches have a remarkable retention rate.

4e was still the number one RPG except for a 2 year window. And the majority of 5e fandom could care less about the OGL fiasco.

Yeah, they permanently lost some people along the way.

But D&D's overall dominance within the hobby is well intact.

History has shown that they will have to go well beyond 4e levels of own-goal stupidity to permanently damage the brand.

Quote from: Jaeger on May 18, 2023, 04:43:02 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 18, 2023, 04:34:23 PM
... yes. wotc wants that sort of blind idiot consumerism cult GW has. But they keep botching it at every turn. How they hang onto their mtg fanatics is anyone's guess.

Yet even their botches have a remarkable retention rate.

4e was still the number one RPG except for a 2 year window. And the majority of 5e fandom could care less about the OGL fiasco.

Yeah, they permanently lost some people along the way.

But D&D's overall dominance within the hobby is well intact.

History has shown that they will have to go well beyond 4e levels of own-goal stupidity to permanently damage the brand.

Greetings!

Hey, Jaeger! That got me thinking, though. If GM's are the main people that buy all the books and stuff, right?--as Players of course don't tend to spend much money on stuff.

WHO then, is patronizing WOTC? WHO is keeping them afloat and punch-drunk happy?

I'm also reminded of how some folks have talked about lots of Woke fuckers not actually playing D&D at all--they just buy stacks of "Coffee Table" books to read and look at, and I guess virtue signal about to their Woke friends. Are they really a large segment though? I have no idea, personally. I don't know anyone that is like that. I can see how some of these latte-drinking Woke activists would be like that though. I've gotten the impression from also many of the "Diverse" gaming talent that WOTC hired to do some of their recent books, like the Citadel one, where lots of these people have been "gaming" for less than 5 years. I also say "Gaming" because I don't think most of them have a fucking clue about the game rules, or really understand what the game is about.

Like having an "adventure" where the players fucking play Baristas at a college coffee shop...*Laughing*

Or Marxist morons like Connie Chang. All that she REES about constantly is white supremacy and colonialism within the gaming hobby. I can't imagine being at a game table with her. Like sitting in some horrible fucking "Gender Studies Class", or a class on "Exploring the Evil Legacy of Colonialism."

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2023, 05:01:57 PM
Hey, Jaeger! That got me thinking, though. If GM's are the main people that buy all the books and stuff, right?--as Players of course don't tend to spend much money on stuff.

WHO then, is patronizing WOTC? WHO is keeping them afloat and punch-drunk happy?
...

Four types of interrelated consumers: (Many more one than the other, and some a combination of all three.)

First:
The unbelievable amount of GM's and player's that only play D&D.

To them D&D = RPG. Period.

And it has been that way in the hobby since the beginning...


Second:
One must also never underestimate the power of normie players.

Normies do not work for their fun. Ever.

D&D has the largest network effect of players and GM's that allow someone to find a game with minimal effort.

Therefore, that is the game that gets played come hell or high-water.

Finding players or a GM for any other RPG requires more effort. Effort = Work to normies.

And normies do not 'work' for their fun.


Third:
There are also those caught in a sunk-cost fallacy, that have a lot of money tied up in all things 'official D&D' and are very reluctant to abandon it.


Fourth:
And believe it or not - some actually like the cut of Wotzi's jib...  They like 5e, like the direction it is going, and want to: "Please sir, can I have some more!"


Unfathomable I know. But one cannot deny the reality of their existence.

Quote from: Jaeger on May 18, 2023, 04:43:02 PM
4e was still the number one RPG except for a 2 year window.

Number 1 2008-10
Number 2 2010-12
OOP 2012-2014

Quote from: S'mon on May 18, 2023, 05:35:41 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on May 18, 2023, 04:43:02 PM
4e was still the number one RPG except for a 2 year window.

Number 1 2008-10
Number 2 2010-12
OOP 2012-2014

You jogged my memory. I'm pretty sure now that I messed up some dates in my post - I'll have to look back at my old notes...

Depending on how you look at things; PF only really out sold 4e straight-up for a year or so, with 2012 on being #1 by default due to 4e being OOP.

And in my opinion PF outsold 4e by just a bit, not by the orders of magnitude that D&D typically outsells its nearest competitors...

Quote from: Jaeger on May 18, 2023, 05:33:56 PM

Third:
There are also those caught in a sunk-cost fallacy, that have a lot of money tied up in all things 'official D&D' and are very reluctant to abandon it.


Fourth:
And believe it or not - some actually like the cut of Wotzi's jib...  They like 5e, like the direction it is going, and want to: "Please sir, can I have some more!"

There's a variation on those two that doesn't exactly fit either one:  They enjoy "D&D"--or to be more precise, "D&D-like" games, and have a lot of good will from whatever spark started that, from OD&D to whatever.  It's not sunk cost, but it is inertia.  It's not approval of WotKKK, but it is maybe some approval of past work by them and the adjacent companies. 

This is much the same way that when an organization starts to go downhill, frequently it will take a long time for the rot to become apparent to the outside.  The people inside are part of the previous culture, before the rot set in, and they are still getting the benefit of that.  When a game is mostly, kind of, sort of, working for you--and the other options don't look any better for your tastes--you can roll along for some time doing your own thing, even when the underlying thing isn't holding up its end of the bargain.  One of the reasons I had such a good run with 5E early was because I had run AD&D and B/X before and brought some of that sensibility to the game.  My younger players got some old school benefits in their 5E game that the 5E game didn't provide. 

When the inertia runs out, that's when people start to drop off. Which is how cascade failures sneak up on companies. 

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2023, 04:23:49 PM
I don't pity them or look down on them for not having much of any kind of attitude towards WOTC. To them, WOTC is just some giant company that makes books and stuff for D&D. They wouldn't know who the fuck the lead designer of D&D is, or any of the people there at WOTC. I could have them sit at the table with us, and they'd be like, who's this doofus? *Laughing*

I guess I do have an appreciation for "Normies". Some people in our hobby seem to enjoy bashing them, or sneering at them, but I can think of many "Normies" that are fantastic gamers, and enjoy playing RPG's. No, they don't GM like I do--and they don't buy a bunch of books like I do.

Quote from: Jaeger on May 18, 2023, 05:33:56 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2023, 05:01:57 PM
Hey, Jaeger! That got me thinking, though. If GM's are the main people that buy all the books and stuff, right?--as Players of course don't tend to spend much money on stuff.

WHO then, is patronizing WOTC? WHO is keeping them afloat and punch-drunk happy?

Four types of interrelated consumers: (Many more one than the other, and some a combination of all three.)

First: The unbelievable amount of GM's and player's that only play D&D.

To them D&D = RPG. Period.

And it has been that way in the hobby since the beginning...

Second: One must also never underestimate the power of normie players.

Normies do not work for their fun. Ever.

D&D has the largest network effect of players and GM's that allow someone to find a game with minimal effort.

Therefore, that is the game that gets played come hell or high-water.

Finding players or a GM for any other RPG requires more effort. Effort = Work to normies.

And normies do not 'work' for their fun.

Third: There are also those caught in a sunk-cost fallacy, that have a lot of money tied up in all things 'official D&D' and are very reluctant to abandon it.

Fourth: And believe it or not - some actually like the cut of Wotzi's jib...  They like 5e, like the direction it is going, and want to: "Please sir, can I have some more!"

Unfathomable I know. But one cannot deny the reality of their existence.

It seems to me that this is is doing what SHARK spoke of earlier -- bashing the "normies" who play D&D as a game to play on weekends, and don't go daily to RPG boards to hear all the latest RPG gossip.

Jaeger, you might consider it unfathomable, but plenty of people even here on this board have found 5E D&D a fun game to play. I'm running a campaign currently. S'mon has been running it, as I recall. I'm sure there's plenty more posters here.

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2023, 06:59:11 PM
It seems to me that this is is doing what SHARK spoke of earlier -- bashing the "normies" who play D&D as a game to play on weekends, and don't go daily to RPG boards to hear all the latest RPG gossip.

Jaeger, you might consider it unfathomable, but plenty of people even here on this board have found 5E D&D a fun game to play. I'm running a campaign currently. S'mon has been running it, as I recall. I'm sure there's plenty more posters here.

Look kids; Jager used a bit of hyperbole in a forum post on the RPGSite!

(https://media0.giphy.com/media/U1aN4HTfJ2SmgB2BBK/giphy.gif)


And who said that people weren't having fun playing 5e?


Pointing out normie behavior patterns is not bashing them.

It's acknowledging the reality of the situation.

Normies are what they are.

I know that if I ever release an RPG, I'd be thrilled to cash checks from normie sales.


Shark is a big boy. I'm sure he can hack a little plain speaking.

Quote from: Jaeger on May 18, 2023, 07:59:24 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2023, 06:59:11 PM
It seems to me that this is is doing what SHARK spoke of earlier -- bashing the "normies" who play D&D as a game to play on weekends, and don't go daily to RPG boards to hear all the latest RPG gossip.

Jaeger, you might consider it unfathomable, but plenty of people even here on this board have found 5E D&D a fun game to play. I'm running a campaign currently. S'mon has been running it, as I recall. I'm sure there's plenty more posters here.

Look kids; Jager used a bit of hyperbole in a forum post on the RPGSite!

(https://media0.giphy.com/media/U1aN4HTfJ2SmgB2BBK/giphy.gif)


And who said that people weren't having fun playing 5e?


Pointing out normie behavior patterns is not bashing them.

It's acknowledging the reality of the situation.

Normies are what they are.

I know that if I ever release an RPG, I'd be thrilled to cash checks from normie sales.


Shark is a big boy. I'm sure he can hack a little plain speaking.

Greetings!

"HOW DARE YOU!" *Laughing* That is such an awesome meme! I love hearing the muppet REEE!!!

Like the world is going to give a fuck what some snot-nosed adolescent girl thinks about anything?

Fucking mind blowing. She's such a tool for the deep state. Pathetic and sad.

Oh, yeah, the whole "Normie" gamers. I have some of them, too. I've played with them as well. Even with normies, you have some variations, right?

It just was like a bee in my brain or something, how different WE all are, here, as members of this board, and while some of my friends are GM's, and passionate, there is some difference there as well. As you mentioned though, as well, my friend, the VAST NUMBERS OF NORMIES. There are lots of people that really are entirely unaware of WOTC, and all the drama that goes on. They most often agree with your politics, mine, and others, that's why they are our friends and in our gaming groups. But how many of your friends, the people you game with, family members, how plugged in are they to WOTC drama? The OGL scandal? WOTC's horrible anti[white racism?

Probably not many, I'd imagine. And, probably like me, the ones that might be *somewhat* tuned in, are because you have set the table for them. I have several people like that. Of course, I have some friends and fellow gamers that are dialed in on all this stuff, just like we are. They are a minority though.

Like you said as well, these are just realities. I've told my friends though that WOTC has gone WOKE AS FUCK, and that they are racist against WHITE PEOPLE. And, I told them all in short, about the whole OGL BS. So, yeah, they are all like, "FUCK WOTC!" And they understand fully why I am now against WOTC, even though I love D&D. I still have a 5E game going. I've been gaming with D&D for decades now. But, I don't need WOTC to do that, so yeah, my friend. I'm done with WOTC.

And you know what else? I think there are variations even with us "Old Guard." Back in the 3E days, when WOTC stabbed 3E and brought out 4E--I was furious. I was angry with WOTC, but it was tempered and focused on a gaming basis. So, I walked away from ever jumping on 4E. I never bought *ONE* 4E book. I just continued playing 3E. Then, with 5E, I'm certainly not some SIMP or a fucking "battered wife"--WOTC looked like they woke the fuck up from a time of stupidity, and actually looked like they were returning to making a good game, more in line with "Old School" values. Thus, I gave them another chance, and went with 5E.

So, what has changed? Well, yeah, things change. Situations and relationships, don't always remain static. Sometimes they can improve, and sometimes they go down the drain and crash and burn. WOTC decided to GO WOKE. Then, they became UBER TYRANT GREEDY, and tried to cancel their honour that they had in good faith established for 20 fucking years! THEN, they suddenly become fucking ANTI-WHITE RACISTS.

That's all deeply personal to me. It goes beyond "Game Editions." It isn't a game system disagreement, much like 4E was. This is all entirely personal. And yeah, that is BS, and I've just had it with WOTC.

I suspect that may be a similar evolution with many of the "Old Guard" gamers such as ourselves. I've seen them on line as well, state such as being the case. That doesn't mean that they hate D&D, just that they are no longer dealing with WOTC as customers--or as fans any longer. After many, many years, just like us.

That's the way things go sometimes.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Jaeger on May 18, 2023, 07:59:24 PM
And who said that people weren't having fun playing 5e?

Pointing out normie behavior patterns is not bashing them.

It's acknowledging the reality of the situation.

Your description of D&D player mentality seemed phrased very negatively to me. Are you saying that it's not "bashing" because it's true that D&D-playing normies actually suck?

I don't think there's anything wrong with being a normie. My son is a dedicated RPG player, but my two nieces and one nephew are normies. I've run a handful of non-D&D RPGs with them, but I think they've only played D&D with their peers. My niece strangely enough had a AD&D 1E group, while my other niece and nephew played 4E and 5E - though their father (my brother-in-law) did show them 1E. They don't read RPG forums or follow industry news.

Likewise, it's fine for people to have fun bowling and never try bocce or golf. I find being a dedicated RPG hobbyist rewarding, but it's not for everyone. I have other hobbies that I only dabble in. I'm sure my fiancee and I are "normies" to dedicated ballroom dancers.

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2023, 08:43:27 PM
I think there are variations even with us "Old Guard." Back in the 3E days, when WOTC stabbed 3E and brought out 4E--I was furious. I was angry with WOTC, but it was tempered and focused on a gaming basis. So, I walked away from ever jumping on 4E. I never bought *ONE* 4E book. I just continued playing 3E. Then, with 5E, I'm certainly not some SIMP or a fucking "battered wife"--WOTC looked like they woke the fuck up from a time of stupidity, and actually looked like they were returning to making a good game, more in line with "Old School" values. Thus, I gave them another chance, and went with 5E.

Yeah, as you say, there are many variations even among the "Old Guard" as well as among the "New Guard".

I never cared for 3E much. I was curious and played it for few months, but then gave it up. I briefly tried 4E just to play with my niece and nephew, and I played the 4E boardgames some. For me, 5E is my favorite among the D&D editions. I liked the core rules, but I hated the early adventures. When I GMed 5E, I adapted modules from older editions rather than use the new ones. Some of the later modules were apparently better. In general, D&D isn't among my favorite games, but it's still good.

Quote from: Jaeger on May 18, 2023, 05:33:56 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2023, 05:01:57 PM
Hey, Jaeger! That got me thinking, though. If GM's are the main people that buy all the books and stuff, right?--as Players of course don't tend to spend much money on stuff.

WHO then, is patronizing WOTC? WHO is keeping them afloat and punch-drunk happy?
...

Second:
One must also never underestimate the power of normie players.

Normies do not work for their fun. Ever.

D&D has the largest network effect of players and GM's that allow someone to find a game with minimal effort.

Therefore, that is the game that gets played come hell or high-water.

Finding players or a GM for any other RPG requires more effort. Effort = Work to normies.

And normies do not 'work' for their fun.

This is part of what I hate about normie players. TTRPGs are inherently DYI, even if people want to get lazy and run only published modules or whatever. And DYI = 'work' for your fun. And personally, I like to take DYI to "build your own system or modular components like special options & stuff from scratch" levels. That's what TTRPGs are really all about.  8)

And while I don't beat myself up about it too much in gaming in particular, I do tend to think that there's a LOT wrong with "normies", and not just in TTRPGs, but in general. Normies are the intellectually lazy people who enable every single problem in the world (without exception), including the political shit we're at and the endless wars for profit, cuz they just don't wanna get informed or think about it. And when it comes to gaming and other hobbies, they're the ones who enable companies that engage in unethical practices, cuz they don't wanna learn WTF these companies are doing or do boycotts. It's just too inconvenient for them.

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2023, 06:59:11 PM
Jaeger, you might consider it unfathomable, but plenty of people even here on this board have found 5E D&D a fun game to play. I'm running a campaign currently. S'mon has been running it, as I recall.

I'm currently running 5 5e D&D groups, and two Dragonbane groups.

5e groups listed here http://simonyrpgs.blogspot.com/2023/05/5e-campaigns-pc-groups.html

Dragonbane is certainly a better game in most respects, but 5e still does D&D well.

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2023, 08:43:27 PM
Then, with 5E, I'm certainly not some SIMP or a fucking "battered wife"--WOTC looked like they woke the fuck up from a time of stupidity, and actually looked like they were returning to making a good game, more in line with "Old School" values. Thus, I gave them another chance, and went with 5E.

So, what has changed? Well, yeah, things change. Situations and relationships, don't always remain static. Sometimes they can improve, and sometimes they go down the drain and crash and burn. WOTC decided to GO WOKE. Then, they became UBER TYRANT GREEDY, and tried to cancel their honour that they had in good faith established for 20 fucking years! THEN, they suddenly become fucking ANTI-WHITE RACISTS.

That's all deeply personal to me. It goes beyond "Game Editions." It isn't a game system disagreement, much like 4E was. This is all entirely personal. And yeah, that is BS, and I've just had it with WOTC.

I suspect that may be a similar evolution with many of the "Old Guard" gamers such as ourselves. I've seen them on line as well, state such as being the case. That doesn't mean that they hate D&D, just that they are no longer dealing with WOTC as customers--or as fans any longer.

Yeah, me too. But same for some of my left-liberal players/fellow GMs, too. They may not care about the anti-white racism, but they care about the OGL and Pinkertons.

Quote from: jhkim on May 19, 2023, 01:12:05 AM
For me, 5E is my favorite among the D&D editions. I liked the core rules, but I hated the early adventures. When I GMed 5E, I adapted modules from older editions rather than use the new ones.

Yeah, me too.  ;D

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on May 18, 2023, 06:49:47 PM
One of the reasons I had such a good run with 5E early was because I had run AD&D and B/X before and brought some of that sensibility to the game.  My younger players got some old school benefits in their 5E game that the 5E game didn't provide.   

Same here - and this is a great point. Mearls (& Pundit!) did really well making 5e compatible with old-school sensibilities.  BUT a lot of the OD&D/BX/1e stuff isn't actually in the 5e books, or is presented in a messed up fashion (a bit like 4e's cargo cult attempt to describe sandbox campaigns in the 4e DMG). So 5e is very dependent on institutional knowledge to work well. And that knowledge is being lost. Crawford & Perkins don't have it, for sure. Matt Colville has it, but his attempts to describe it in his Youtube videos have had mixed results I think, and AFAIK it's not there in his published 5e books.

Quote from: S'mon on May 19, 2023, 07:23:21 AM

I'm currently running 5 5e D&D groups, and two Dragonbane groups.

Dragonbane is certainly a better game in most respects, but 5e still does D&D well.

Damn, that's a lot of groups!

I'm curious what aspects you think make DB better than D&D?

After reading the quickstart, I really disagreed with some of the design decisions they made which killed my enthusiasm for the game.

Is it the conceptual differences, or hard rules that just do certain fantasy aspect better?

Quote from: S'mon on May 19, 2023, 07:33:15 AM
Same here - and this is a great point. Mearls (& Pundit!) did really well making 5e compatible with old-school sensibilities.  BUT a lot of the OD&D/BX/1e stuff isn't actually in the 5e books, or is presented in a messed up fashion (a bit like 4e's cargo cult attempt to describe sandbox campaigns in the 4e DMG). So 5e is very dependent on institutional knowledge to work well. And that knowledge is being lost. Crawford & Perkins don't have it, for sure. Matt Colville has it, but his attempts to describe it in his Youtube videos have had mixed results I think, and AFAIK it's not there in his published 5e books.

That's one thing I noticed when I read the rules for the first time.

In my opinion; A total newbie to RPG's would be lost without all the other resources out there on how to make the system work for them.

It leans heavily on its dominant network effect to ease new players into the game.

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2023, 08:43:27 PM
...
Oh, yeah, the whole "Normie" gamers. I have some of them, too. I've played with them as well. Even with normies, you have some variations, right?

It just was like a bee in my brain or something, how different WE all are, here, as members of this board, ...

Like you said as well, these are just realities. ...

And you know what else? I think there are variations even with us "Old Guard." ...

I suspect that may be a similar evolution with many of the "Old Guard" gamers such as ourselves. I've seen them on line as well, state such as being the case. That doesn't mean that they hate D&D, just that they are no longer dealing with WOTC as customers--or as fans any longer. After many, many years, just like us.

That's the way things go sometimes.

Of course there are variations and exceptions. 

When discussing things in general amongst people capable of abstract thinking, they do not need to be gone over in minutiae; Because it goes without saying that they are there, and it's recognized that their existence doesn't invalidate the overall trends or ideas being discussed.

(Most of this board gets this, thankfully, with the usual exceptions. LOL...)

Quote from: jhkim on May 19, 2023, 01:12:05 AM
Your description of D&D player mentality seemed phrased very negatively to me. ...

(https://media.tenor.com/YiglXxHkB_0AAAAM/jeremy-clarkson-top-gear.gif)

Quote from: S'mon on May 19, 2023, 07:29:14 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 19, 2023, 01:12:05 AM
For me, 5E is my favorite among the D&D editions. I liked the core rules, but I hated the early adventures. When I GMed 5E, I adapted modules from older editions rather than use the new ones.

Yeah, me too.  ;D

Quote from: S'mon on May 19, 2023, 07:33:15 AM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on May 18, 2023, 06:49:47 PM
One of the reasons I had such a good run with 5E early was because I had run AD&D and B/X before and brought some of that sensibility to the game.  My younger players got some old school benefits in their 5E game that the 5E game didn't provide.   

Same here - and this is a great point. Mearls (& Pundit!) did really well making 5e compatible with old-school sensibilities.  BUT a lot of the OD&D/BX/1e stuff isn't actually in the 5e books, or is presented in a messed up fashion (a bit like 4e's cargo cult attempt to describe sandbox campaigns in the 4e DMG). So 5e is very dependent on institutional knowledge to work well. And that knowledge is being lost. Crawford & Perkins don't have it, for sure. Matt Colville has it, but his attempts to describe it in his Youtube videos have had mixed results I think, and AFAIK it's not there in his published 5e books.

While I hated the original official 5E modules, overall I think D&D module style and quality has gone back and forth. It's not just old-school vs new-school. I also dislike a lot of old-school modules -- in particular the 1980s trend of tournament modules like Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth or Ghost Tower of Inverness -- as well as the later 1990s trend of boxed-text fixed-storyline adventures like those for the Ravenloft setting (though I love the original I6 and I10 modules). The tournament module trend feels extremely meta-gamey to me, like artificial video game setups, especially when using the original tournament point systems. The boxed-text fixed-storyline are obviously railroady.

There are modules I like, but they're relatively scattered over the decades. For example, The Sunless Citadel for 3E is one of my favorites, and certainly my favorite introductory module. On the other hand, there are many older modules that I enjoy as well. I love Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan. Though it is a tournament module, it's very grounded in background and in-character design.

Quote from: Hixanthrope on May 18, 2023, 12:20:54 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 14, 2023, 09:31:57 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on May 14, 2023, 12:15:26 AM
The old audience, the group of fans that stuck with D&D through thick and thin

That's a DECADE now of bashing, at least.

Here's to another decade, lads.

I have no issue with disliking WOTC. They're no saints and if that's a cause you choose to devote your limited resources against, who am I to judge that? I devote some of my limited resources to, for example, hating a particular sports team and that's certainly no more just and honorable a side hobby.

I purely objected to pretending people who had ditched WOTC the moment they didn't like a version of the game (which they largely did) had "stuck by" the game. It was obvious fiction.

Quote from: jhkim on May 19, 2023, 12:56:35 PM

Quote from: S'mon on May 19, 2023, 07:29:14 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 19, 2023, 01:12:05 AM
For me, 5E is my favorite among the D&D editions. I liked the core rules, but I hated the early adventures. When I GMed 5E, I adapted modules from older editions rather than use the new ones.

Yeah, me too.  ;D

Quote from: S'mon on May 19, 2023, 07:33:15 AM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on May 18, 2023, 06:49:47 PM
One of the reasons I had such a good run with 5E early was because I had run AD&D and B/X before and brought some of that sensibility to the game.  My younger players got some old school benefits in their 5E game that the 5E game didn't provide.   

Same here - and this is a great point. Mearls (& Pundit!) did really well making 5e compatible with old-school sensibilities.  BUT a lot of the OD&D/BX/1e stuff isn't actually in the 5e books, or is presented in a messed up fashion (a bit like 4e's cargo cult attempt to describe sandbox campaigns in the 4e DMG). So 5e is very dependent on institutional knowledge to work well. And that knowledge is being lost. Crawford & Perkins don't have it, for sure. Matt Colville has it, but his attempts to describe it in his Youtube videos have had mixed results I think, and AFAIK it's not there in his published 5e books.

While I hated the original official 5E modules, overall I think D&D module style and quality has gone back and forth. It's not just old-school vs new-school. I also dislike a lot of old-school modules -- in particular the 1980s trend of tournament modules like Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth or Ghost Tower of Inverness -- as well as the later 1990s trend of boxed-text fixed-storyline adventures like those for the Ravenloft setting (though I love the original I6 and I10 modules). The tournament module trend feels extremely meta-gamey to me, like artificial video game setups, especially when using the original tournament point systems. The boxed-text fixed-storyline are obviously railroady.

There are modules I like, but they're relatively scattered over the decades. For example, The Sunless Citadel for 3E is one of my favorites, and certainly my favorite introductory module. On the other hand, there are many older modules that I enjoy as well. I love Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan. Though it is a tournament module, it's very grounded in background and in-character design.

Yeah, I agree with that too. I've run 3e's Forge of Fury at least twice in 5e D&D, I like it a lot, but the 5e maps in Yawning Portal are so absymal I had to use the 3e ones, and really I could have run the whole thing from the 3e book, the 5e version added zero value. 

I too really strongly dislike Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, IMO a crappy zoo dungeon existing purely to add new monsters to D&D. I'm ok with a real funhouse like White Plume Mountain though; and I've never run Inverness though I own it - it never much grabbed me.

Quote from: Jaeger on May 19, 2023, 12:44:39 PM
I'm curious what aspects you think make DB better than D&D?

After reading the quickstart, I really disagreed with some of the design decisions they made which killed my enthusiasm for the game.

Is it the conceptual differences, or hard rules that just do certain fantasy aspect better?

Things I particularly like include
The incredibly tense combat - just finished an online DB session, *whew*
The way HP & WP are equivalent resources, and martial & caster are on good parity
The way it plays really fast
The whole Boon/Bane system and fixed skill target numbers works brilliantly.
The way HP & WP can increase, but only very very slowly.

For me it takes the best of BRP and 5e D&D in a great package. The YZE elements don't enthuse me to the same extent but are tolerable.

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 19, 2023, 07:06:30 AM

Quote from: Jaeger on May 18, 2023, 05:33:56 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2023, 05:01:57 PM
Hey, Jaeger! That got me thinking, though. If GM's are the main people that buy all the books and stuff, right?--as Players of course don't tend to spend much money on stuff.

WHO then, is patronizing WOTC? WHO is keeping them afloat and punch-drunk happy?
...

Second:
One must also never underestimate the power of normie players.

Normies do not work for their fun. Ever.

D&D has the largest network effect of players and GM's that allow someone to find a game with minimal effort.

Therefore, that is the game that gets played come hell or high-water.

Finding players or a GM for any other RPG requires more effort. Effort = Work to normies.

And normies do not 'work' for their fun.

This is part of what I hate about normie players. TTRPGs are inherently DYI, even if people want to get lazy and run only published modules or whatever. And DYI = 'work' for your fun. And personally, I like to take DYI to "build your own system or modular components like special options & stuff from scratch" levels. That's what TTRPGs are really all about.  8)

And while I don't beat myself up about it too much in gaming in particular, I do tend to think that there's a LOT wrong with "normies", and not just in TTRPGs, but in general. Normies are the intellectually lazy people who enable every single problem in the world (without exception), including the political shit we're at and the endless wars for profit, cuz they just don't wanna get informed or think about it. And when it comes to gaming and other hobbies, they're the ones who enable companies that engage in unethical practices, cuz they don't wanna learn WTF these companies are doing or do boycotts. It's just too inconvenient for them.

Greetings!

Well, now I'm confused. Maybe I don't fully grasp what "Normies" really are.

I have kind of seen the Non-Gamer Normies being one group. Many of them would definitely fit your description, my friend. They are certainly bad. The intellectually lazy, and so on.

Then, there are Gamer Players;

Then, there are Gamers, GM's;

Then, there are Gamers, GM's that are definitely fans and devoted to the hobby, while also being politically and socially/Industry News Aware. I can think of some Gamer Players that, while not being GM's, fit into such a category.

Gamer GM's are certainly more dedicated to the hobby than Gamer Players, while not necessarily being politically and industry-news plugged in.

I can think of several individuals, for example, that are devoted Gamer Players, but they are not that political or Industry aware. Between a wife, three kids, their career, going shooting, off-roading with their truck, following favourite sports games, some MMA stuff, going to the gym, being involved with their Church and Bible Study, they have many priorities. Gaming is certainly one of those priorities, but different in where they place it on their list of priorities than say, I have my list of priorities arranged.

I find it difficult to dress them down because they are not as plugged into politics or game-industry BS like I am. I'm pleased and respectful to the fact that they manage to stop everything going on for 6 or 8 hours straight, to come to the table with a bottle of good tequila and a handful of cigars, where they say to me, "Fuck it SHARK! Let's roll them dice, brother! I've been looking forward to tracking down that evil witch we encountered last week!"

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

This is going to sound strange, but a lot of the classic modules don't really give the old school sensibility.  They hint at it, and they reflect it, but they don't give it.  That's because it's really about absorbing the rules, trying to understand them, making your own campaign, and perhaps fitting some of those modules into it. 

Consider two GM's.  One takes the slavers series, learns the rules, runs it straight, with the pre-generated characters.  The other GM has run Keep on the Borderlands as their means of learning the rules.  Then they use the slaver series as a follow up in a campaign connected to the events so far, using the surviving characters from that game.  The first GM will have some old school stuff, of course, because it is reflected in those modules, and moreover, it's in the rules being used.  However, I'd suggest that all else being equal, the second GM will run a game much more in the old school style.

Even after I was deep into that style and had run lots of adventures that I had written myself, there was still a big difference in running a canned module straight versus including it in a campaign.  The players noticed it too.  They were much more reckless in a module with pre-gens--though I suppose that's another slice of old school too. 

Quote from: Mistwell on May 19, 2023, 02:28:43 PM

I purely objected to pretending people who had ditched WOTC the moment they didn't like a version of the game (which they largely did) had "stuck by" the game. It was obvious fiction.

See, now you are going back to being a weasel again.

What is more in the spirit of D&D? 3.x or 4E? Aren't Labyrinth Lord, Basic Fantasy, and Old School Essentials closer to the spirit of the D&D we grew up with playing than the burnt offerings of 4E or 5E? If WotC can't keep long term customers happy, then why support WotC?

People stuck by the games that they played because they were fun. You are getting your panties in a twist because those game aren't made by WotC.

Quote from: Summon666 on May 16, 2023, 10:32:27 AM
out of curiosity.....

Do you do paid sponsor content?
If WoTC approached you and offered you a sallery to make your videos, what would it take for you to consider it?

I do not do any paid sponsor content on my youtube. And while in theory, if I got a sponsorship from some company I really admired and believed in I would certainly consider it, I would definitely not work for WoTC, because that would come with strings attached that I have no interest in being hung from.

Quote from: SHARK on May 19, 2023, 07:54:34 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 19, 2023, 07:06:30 AM

Quote from: Jaeger on May 18, 2023, 05:33:56 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2023, 05:01:57 PM
Hey, Jaeger! That got me thinking, though. If GM's are the main people that buy all the books and stuff, right?--as Players of course don't tend to spend much money on stuff.

WHO then, is patronizing WOTC? WHO is keeping them afloat and punch-drunk happy?
...

Second:
One must also never underestimate the power of normie players.

Normies do not work for their fun. Ever.

D&D has the largest network effect of players and GM's that allow someone to find a game with minimal effort.

Therefore, that is the game that gets played come hell or high-water.

Finding players or a GM for any other RPG requires more effort. Effort = Work to normies.

And normies do not 'work' for their fun.

This is part of what I hate about normie players. TTRPGs are inherently DYI, even if people want to get lazy and run only published modules or whatever. And DYI = 'work' for your fun. And personally, I like to take DYI to "build your own system or modular components like special options & stuff from scratch" levels. That's what TTRPGs are really all about.  8)

And while I don't beat myself up about it too much in gaming in particular, I do tend to think that there's a LOT wrong with "normies", and not just in TTRPGs, but in general. Normies are the intellectually lazy people who enable every single problem in the world (without exception), including the political shit we're at and the endless wars for profit, cuz they just don't wanna get informed or think about it. And when it comes to gaming and other hobbies, they're the ones who enable companies that engage in unethical practices, cuz they don't wanna learn WTF these companies are doing or do boycotts. It's just too inconvenient for them.

Greetings!

Well, now I'm confused. Maybe I don't fully grasp what "Normies" really are.

I have kind of seen the Non-Gamer Normies being one group. Many of them would definitely fit your description, my friend. They are certainly bad. The intellectually lazy, and so on.

Then, there are Gamer Players;

Then, there are Gamers, GM's;

Then, there are Gamers, GM's that are definitely fans and devoted to the hobby, while also being politically and socially/Industry News Aware. I can think of some Gamer Players that, while not being GM's, fit into such a category.

Gamer GM's are certainly more dedicated to the hobby than Gamer Players, while not necessarily being politically and industry-news plugged in.

I can think of several individuals, for example, that are devoted Gamer Players, but they are not that political or Industry aware. Between a wife, three kids, their career, going shooting, off-roading with their truck, following favourite sports games, some MMA stuff, going to the gym, being involved with their Church and Bible Study, they have many priorities. Gaming is certainly one of those priorities, but different in where they place it on their list of priorities than say, I have my list of priorities arranged.

I find it difficult to dress them down because they are not as plugged into politics or game-industry BS like I am. I'm pleased and respectful to the fact that they manage to stop everything going on for 6 or 8 hours straight, to come to the table with a bottle of good tequila and a handful of cigars, where they say to me, "Fuck it SHARK! Let's roll them dice, brother! I've been looking forward to tracking down that evil witch we encountered last week!"

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yeah, this is part of the reason why I don't beat myself up about normies in gaming. They might be annoying and a bit problematic in the sense that they contribute to not holding unethical businesses to account. But gaming is such a frivolous activity by itself already, and a lot of these people tend to be busy with more pressing life issues that getting too mad at them might be a bit neurotic. So it tends to rise more to the level of disappointment or annoyance for me, since such oversights are easier to understand in those instances.

Maybe I'm using my definition of "normies" too broadly, but I do think that there's a overlap between people who don't even care about unethical practices in gaming companies and those who don't inform themselves about socio-political issues in general. It speaks to a certain type of attitude of intellectual laziness and general unawareness or lack of concern about things that don't affect them directly, IMO. Which ultimately enables bad actors who consequently don't suffer any consequences for their actions as a result.

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 20, 2023, 09:27:14 AM
Yeah, this is part of the reason why I don't beat myself up about normies in gaming. They might be annoying and a bit problematic in the sense that they contribute to not holding unethical businesses to account. But gaming is such a frivolous activity by itself already, and a lot of these people tend to be busy with more pressing life issues that getting too mad at them might be a bit neurotic. So it tends to rise more to the level of disappointment or annoyance for me, since such oversights are easier to understand in those instances.

Maybe I'm using my definition of "normies" too broadly, but I do think that there's a overlap between people who don't even care about unethical practices in gaming companies and those who don't inform themselves about socio-political issues in general. It speaks to a certain type of attitude of intellectual laziness and general unawareness or lack of concern about things that don't affect them directly, IMO. Which ultimately enables bad actors who consequently don't suffer any consequences for their actions as a result.

Exactly. It serves no purpose to get wound up by "Normie" behavior.

They are what they are: You will not change them, or their general behavior patterns.

Far better to just accept things as they are, and have fun with what is at the table in front of you!

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 19, 2023, 09:54:57 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 19, 2023, 02:28:43 PM
I purely objected to pretending people who had ditched WOTC the moment they didn't like a version of the game (which they largely did) had "stuck by" the game. It was obvious fiction.

What is more in the spirit of D&D? 3.x or 4E? Aren't Labyrinth Lord, Basic Fantasy, and Old School Essentials closer to the spirit of the D&D we grew up with playing than the burnt offerings of 4E or 5E? If WotC can't keep long term customers happy, then why support WotC?

People stuck by the games that they played because they were fun. You are getting your panties in a twist because those game aren't made by WotC.

jeff37923, I don't think you're disagreeing with Mistwell here. What you're saying - particularly the part I bolded above - is consistent with what Mistwell has been saying and with what I have been saying. We both pointed out how a lot of older D&D players left for Pathfinder and/or the OSR. Those who returned to played 5E did so not because they were irrationally loyal like battered wives, but because 5E was a fun system for them.

Jaeger talked about how older D&D players irrationally clung to the D&D brand, sticking to it through thick and thin.

I think that while brand loyalty is a factor, for the most part people play games because those games are fun for them.

Quote from: jhkim on May 20, 2023, 10:04:09 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 19, 2023, 09:54:57 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 19, 2023, 02:28:43 PM
I purely objected to pretending people who had ditched WOTC the moment they didn't like a version of the game (which they largely did) had "stuck by" the game. It was obvious fiction.

What is more in the spirit of D&D? 3.x or 4E? Aren't Labyrinth Lord, Basic Fantasy, and Old School Essentials closer to the spirit of the D&D we grew up with playing than the burnt offerings of 4E or 5E? If WotC can't keep long term customers happy, then why support WotC?

People stuck by the games that they played because they were fun. You are getting your panties in a twist because those game aren't made by WotC.

jeff37923, I don't think you're disagreeing with Mistwell here. What you're saying - particularly the part I bolded above - is consistent with what Mistwell has been saying and with what I have been saying. We both pointed out how a lot of older D&D players left for Pathfinder and/or the OSR. Those who returned to played 5E did so not because they were irrationally loyal like battered wives, but because 5E was a fun system for them.

Jaeger talked about how older D&D players irrationally clung to the D&D brand, sticking to it through thick and thin.

I think that while brand loyalty is a factor, for the most part people play games because those games are fun for them.

Fuck off.

I'm talking about spirit while ya'll are talking about brand, which is apples and oranges.