Quote from: Hixanthrope on May 18, 2023, 12:20:54 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 14, 2023, 09:31:57 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on May 14, 2023, 12:15:26 AM
The old audience, the group of fans that stuck with D&D through thick and thin

That's a DECADE now of bashing, at least.

Here's to another decade, lads.

I have no issue with disliking WOTC. They're no saints and if that's a cause you choose to devote your limited resources against, who am I to judge that? I devote some of my limited resources to, for example, hating a particular sports team and that's certainly no more just and honorable a side hobby.

I purely objected to pretending people who had ditched WOTC the moment they didn't like a version of the game (which they largely did) had "stuck by" the game. It was obvious fiction.

Quote from: jhkim on May 19, 2023, 12:56:35 PM

Quote from: S'mon on May 19, 2023, 07:29:14 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 19, 2023, 01:12:05 AM
For me, 5E is my favorite among the D&D editions. I liked the core rules, but I hated the early adventures. When I GMed 5E, I adapted modules from older editions rather than use the new ones.

Yeah, me too. 

Quote from: S'mon on May 19, 2023, 07:33:15 AM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on May 18, 2023, 06:49:47 PM
One of the reasons I had such a good run with 5E early was because I had run AD&D and B/X before and brought some of that sensibility to the game.  My younger players got some old school benefits in their 5E game that the 5E game didn't provide.   

Same here - and this is a great point. Mearls (& Pundit!) did really well making 5e compatible with old-school sensibilities.  BUT a lot of the OD&D/BX/1e stuff isn't actually in the 5e books, or is presented in a messed up fashion (a bit like 4e's cargo cult attempt to describe sandbox campaigns in the 4e DMG). So 5e is very dependent on institutional knowledge to work well. And that knowledge is being lost. Crawford & Perkins don't have it, for sure. Matt Colville has it, but his attempts to describe it in his Youtube videos have had mixed results I think, and AFAIK it's not there in his published 5e books.

While I hated the original official 5E modules, overall I think D&D module style and quality has gone back and forth. It's not just old-school vs new-school. I also dislike a lot of old-school modules -- in particular the 1980s trend of tournament modules like Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth or Ghost Tower of Inverness -- as well as the later 1990s trend of boxed-text fixed-storyline adventures like those for the Ravenloft setting (though I love the original I6 and I10 modules). The tournament module trend feels extremely meta-gamey to me, like artificial video game setups, especially when using the original tournament point systems. The boxed-text fixed-storyline are obviously railroady.

There are modules I like, but they're relatively scattered over the decades. For example, The Sunless Citadel for 3E is one of my favorites, and certainly my favorite introductory module. On the other hand, there are many older modules that I enjoy as well. I love Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan. Though it is a tournament module, it's very grounded in background and in-character design.

Yeah, I agree with that too. I've run 3e's Forge of Fury at least twice in 5e D&D, I like it a lot, but the 5e maps in Yawning Portal are so absymal I had to use the 3e ones, and really I could have run the whole thing from the 3e book, the 5e version added zero value. 

I too really strongly dislike Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, IMO a crappy zoo dungeon existing purely to add new monsters to D&D. I'm ok with a real funhouse like White Plume Mountain though; and I've never run Inverness though I own it - it never much grabbed me.

Quote from: Jaeger on May 19, 2023, 12:44:39 PM
I'm curious what aspects you think make DB better than D&D?

After reading the quickstart, I really disagreed with some of the design decisions they made which killed my enthusiasm for the game.

Is it the conceptual differences, or hard rules that just do certain fantasy aspect better?

Things I particularly like include
The incredibly tense combat - just finished an online DB session, *whew*
The way HP & WP are equivalent resources, and martial & caster are on good parity
The way it plays really fast
The whole Boon/Bane system and fixed skill target numbers works brilliantly.
The way HP & WP can increase, but only very very slowly.

For me it takes the best of BRP and 5e D&D in a great package. The YZE elements don't enthuse me to the same extent but are tolerable.

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 19, 2023, 07:06:30 AM

Quote from: Jaeger on May 18, 2023, 05:33:56 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2023, 05:01:57 PM
Hey, Jaeger! That got me thinking, though. If GM's are the main people that buy all the books and stuff, right?--as Players of course don't tend to spend much money on stuff.

WHO then, is patronizing WOTC? WHO is keeping them afloat and punch-drunk happy?
...

Second:
One must also never underestimate the power of normie players.

Normies do not work for their fun. Ever.

D&D has the largest network effect of players and GM's that allow someone to find a game with minimal effort.

Therefore, that is the game that gets played come hell or high-water.

Finding players or a GM for any other RPG requires more effort. Effort = Work to normies.

And normies do not 'work' for their fun.

This is part of what I hate about normie players. TTRPGs are inherently DYI, even if people want to get lazy and run only published modules or whatever. And DYI = 'work' for your fun. And personally, I like to take DYI to "build your own system or modular components like special options & stuff from scratch" levels. That's what TTRPGs are really all about. 

And while I don't beat myself up about it too much in gaming in particular, I do tend to think that there's a LOT wrong with "normies", and not just in TTRPGs, but in general. Normies are the intellectually lazy people who enable every single problem in the world (without exception), including the political shit we're at and the endless wars for profit, cuz they just don't wanna get informed or think about it. And when it comes to gaming and other hobbies, they're the ones who enable companies that engage in unethical practices, cuz they don't wanna learn WTF these companies are doing or do boycotts. It's just too inconvenient for them.

Greetings!

Well, now I'm confused. Maybe I don't fully grasp what "Normies" really are.

I have kind of seen the Non-Gamer Normies being one group. Many of them would definitely fit your description, my friend. They are certainly bad. The intellectually lazy, and so on.

Then, there are Gamer Players;

Then, there are Gamers, GM's;

Then, there are Gamers, GM's that are definitely fans and devoted to the hobby, while also being politically and socially/Industry News Aware. I can think of some Gamer Players that, while not being GM's, fit into such a category.

Gamer GM's are certainly more dedicated to the hobby than Gamer Players, while not necessarily being politically and industry-news plugged in.

I can think of several individuals, for example, that are devoted Gamer Players, but they are not that political or Industry aware. Between a wife, three kids, their career, going shooting, off-roading with their truck, following favourite sports games, some MMA stuff, going to the gym, being involved with their Church and Bible Study, they have many priorities. Gaming is certainly one of those priorities, but different in where they place it on their list of priorities than say, I have my list of priorities arranged.

I find it difficult to dress them down because they are not as plugged into politics or game-industry BS like I am. I'm pleased and respectful to the fact that they manage to stop everything going on for 6 or 8 hours straight, to come to the table with a bottle of good tequila and a handful of cigars, where they say to me, "Fuck it SHARK! Let's roll them dice, brother! I've been looking forward to tracking down that evil witch we encountered last week!"

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

This is going to sound strange, but a lot of the classic modules don't really give the old school sensibility.  They hint at it, and they reflect it, but they don't give it.  That's because it's really about absorbing the rules, trying to understand them, making your own campaign, and perhaps fitting some of those modules into it. 

Consider two GM's.  One takes the slavers series, learns the rules, runs it straight, with the pre-generated characters.  The other GM has run Keep on the Borderlands as their means of learning the rules.  Then they use the slaver series as a follow up in a campaign connected to the events so far, using the surviving characters from that game.  The first GM will have some old school stuff, of course, because it is reflected in those modules, and moreover, it's in the rules being used.  However, I'd suggest that all else being equal, the second GM will run a game much more in the old school style.

Even after I was deep into that style and had run lots of adventures that I had written myself, there was still a big difference in running a canned module straight versus including it in a campaign.  The players noticed it too.  They were much more reckless in a module with pre-gens--though I suppose that's another slice of old school too. 

Quote from: Mistwell on May 19, 2023, 02:28:43 PM

I purely objected to pretending people who had ditched WOTC the moment they didn't like a version of the game (which they largely did) had "stuck by" the game. It was obvious fiction.

See, now you are going back to being a weasel again.

What is more in the spirit of D&D? 3.x or 4E? Aren't Labyrinth Lord, Basic Fantasy, and Old School Essentials closer to the spirit of the D&D we grew up with playing than the burnt offerings of 4E or 5E? If WotC can't keep long term customers happy, then why support WotC?

People stuck by the games that they played because they were fun. You are getting your panties in a twist because those game aren't made by WotC.

Quote from: Summon666 on May 16, 2023, 10:32:27 AM
out of curiosity.....

Do you do paid sponsor content?
If WoTC approached you and offered you a sallery to make your videos, what would it take for you to consider it?

I do not do any paid sponsor content on my youtube. And while in theory, if I got a sponsorship from some company I really admired and believed in I would certainly consider it, I would definitely not work for WoTC, because that would come with strings attached that I have no interest in being hung from.

Quote from: SHARK on May 19, 2023, 07:54:34 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 19, 2023, 07:06:30 AM

Quote from: Jaeger on May 18, 2023, 05:33:56 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2023, 05:01:57 PM
Hey, Jaeger! That got me thinking, though. If GM's are the main people that buy all the books and stuff, right?--as Players of course don't tend to spend much money on stuff.

WHO then, is patronizing WOTC? WHO is keeping them afloat and punch-drunk happy?
...

Second:
One must also never underestimate the power of normie players.

Normies do not work for their fun. Ever.

D&D has the largest network effect of players and GM's that allow someone to find a game with minimal effort.

Therefore, that is the game that gets played come hell or high-water.

Finding players or a GM for any other RPG requires more effort. Effort = Work to normies.

And normies do not 'work' for their fun.

This is part of what I hate about normie players. TTRPGs are inherently DYI, even if people want to get lazy and run only published modules or whatever. And DYI = 'work' for your fun. And personally, I like to take DYI to "build your own system or modular components like special options & stuff from scratch" levels. That's what TTRPGs are really all about. 

And while I don't beat myself up about it too much in gaming in particular, I do tend to think that there's a LOT wrong with "normies", and not just in TTRPGs, but in general. Normies are the intellectually lazy people who enable every single problem in the world (without exception), including the political shit we're at and the endless wars for profit, cuz they just don't wanna get informed or think about it. And when it comes to gaming and other hobbies, they're the ones who enable companies that engage in unethical practices, cuz they don't wanna learn WTF these companies are doing or do boycotts. It's just too inconvenient for them.

Greetings!

Well, now I'm confused. Maybe I don't fully grasp what "Normies" really are.

I have kind of seen the Non-Gamer Normies being one group. Many of them would definitely fit your description, my friend. They are certainly bad. The intellectually lazy, and so on.

Then, there are Gamer Players;

Then, there are Gamers, GM's;

Then, there are Gamers, GM's that are definitely fans and devoted to the hobby, while also being politically and socially/Industry News Aware. I can think of some Gamer Players that, while not being GM's, fit into such a category.

Gamer GM's are certainly more dedicated to the hobby than Gamer Players, while not necessarily being politically and industry-news plugged in.

I can think of several individuals, for example, that are devoted Gamer Players, but they are not that political or Industry aware. Between a wife, three kids, their career, going shooting, off-roading with their truck, following favourite sports games, some MMA stuff, going to the gym, being involved with their Church and Bible Study, they have many priorities. Gaming is certainly one of those priorities, but different in where they place it on their list of priorities than say, I have my list of priorities arranged.

I find it difficult to dress them down because they are not as plugged into politics or game-industry BS like I am. I'm pleased and respectful to the fact that they manage to stop everything going on for 6 or 8 hours straight, to come to the table with a bottle of good tequila and a handful of cigars, where they say to me, "Fuck it SHARK! Let's roll them dice, brother! I've been looking forward to tracking down that evil witch we encountered last week!"

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yeah, this is part of the reason why I don't beat myself up about normies in gaming. They might be annoying and a bit problematic in the sense that they contribute to not holding unethical businesses to account. But gaming is such a frivolous activity by itself already, and a lot of these people tend to be busy with more pressing life issues that getting too mad at them might be a bit neurotic. So it tends to rise more to the level of disappointment or annoyance for me, since such oversights are easier to understand in those instances.

Maybe I'm using my definition of "normies" too broadly, but I do think that there's a overlap between people who don't even care about unethical practices in gaming companies and those who don't inform themselves about socio-political issues in general. It speaks to a certain type of attitude of intellectual laziness and general unawareness or lack of concern about things that don't affect them directly, IMO. Which ultimately enables bad actors who consequently don't suffer any consequences for their actions as a result.

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 20, 2023, 09:27:14 AM
Yeah, this is part of the reason why I don't beat myself up about normies in gaming. They might be annoying and a bit problematic in the sense that they contribute to not holding unethical businesses to account. But gaming is such a frivolous activity by itself already, and a lot of these people tend to be busy with more pressing life issues that getting too mad at them might be a bit neurotic. So it tends to rise more to the level of disappointment or annoyance for me, since such oversights are easier to understand in those instances.

Maybe I'm using my definition of "normies" too broadly, but I do think that there's a overlap between people who don't even care about unethical practices in gaming companies and those who don't inform themselves about socio-political issues in general. It speaks to a certain type of attitude of intellectual laziness and general unawareness or lack of concern about things that don't affect them directly, IMO. Which ultimately enables bad actors who consequently don't suffer any consequences for their actions as a result.

Exactly. It serves no purpose to get wound up by "Normie" behavior.

They are what they are: You will not change them, or their general behavior patterns.

Far better to just accept things as they are, and have fun with what is at the table in front of you!

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 19, 2023, 09:54:57 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 19, 2023, 02:28:43 PM
I purely objected to pretending people who had ditched WOTC the moment they didn't like a version of the game (which they largely did) had "stuck by" the game. It was obvious fiction.

What is more in the spirit of D&D? 3.x or 4E? Aren't Labyrinth Lord, Basic Fantasy, and Old School Essentials closer to the spirit of the D&D we grew up with playing than the burnt offerings of 4E or 5E? If WotC can't keep long term customers happy, then why support WotC?

People stuck by the games that they played because they were fun. You are getting your panties in a twist because those game aren't made by WotC.

jeff37923, I don't think you're disagreeing with Mistwell here. What you're saying - particularly the part I bolded above - is consistent with what Mistwell has been saying and with what I have been saying. We both pointed out how a lot of older D&D players left for Pathfinder and/or the OSR. Those who returned to played 5E did so not because they were irrationally loyal like battered wives, but because 5E was a fun system for them.

Jaeger talked about how older D&D players irrationally clung to the D&D brand, sticking to it through thick and thin.

I think that while brand loyalty is a factor, for the most part people play games because those games are fun for them.

Quote from: jhkim on May 20, 2023, 10:04:09 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 19, 2023, 09:54:57 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 19, 2023, 02:28:43 PM
I purely objected to pretending people who had ditched WOTC the moment they didn't like a version of the game (which they largely did) had "stuck by" the game. It was obvious fiction.

What is more in the spirit of D&D? 3.x or 4E? Aren't Labyrinth Lord, Basic Fantasy, and Old School Essentials closer to the spirit of the D&D we grew up with playing than the burnt offerings of 4E or 5E? If WotC can't keep long term customers happy, then why support WotC?

People stuck by the games that they played because they were fun. You are getting your panties in a twist because those game aren't made by WotC.

jeff37923, I don't think you're disagreeing with Mistwell here. What you're saying - particularly the part I bolded above - is consistent with what Mistwell has been saying and with what I have been saying. We both pointed out how a lot of older D&D players left for Pathfinder and/or the OSR. Those who returned to played 5E did so not because they were irrationally loyal like battered wives, but because 5E was a fun system for them.

Jaeger talked about how older D&D players irrationally clung to the D&D brand, sticking to it through thick and thin.

I think that while brand loyalty is a factor, for the most part people play games because those games are fun for them.

Fuck off.

I'm talking about spirit while ya'll are talking about brand, which is apples and oranges.