TheRPGSite

Sorry for the retarded question, but,
What's the difference between Dungeons and Dragons and the Rules Cyclopedia. It kind of looks like the RC is an offshoot or another version of the main D&D series of books. Is this the case?

The Rules Cyclopedia is the old classic Dungeons and Dragons. It's a condensation of all the classic D&D rules books (Basic, Expert...) in one volume with a whole bunch of optional rules and a pretty decent overview of the "Known World" setting and Immortals pantheon. It's a very complete, compact and well organised book.

The artwork lacks the character of older editions and purists might frown at some of the optional rules, but it's probably the best book out there for anyone interested in playing the classic D&D.

In other words, it's the collection of all the non-Advanced D&D rules under one cover. Well, almost all. I believe it doesn't include the rules from the boxed Immortals set--those were instead replaced by a separate book that could be added to RC.

The RC is like Yngwie Malmsteen wearing a Richard Nixon mask.  "AAAAAAAAH this ROCKS -- but why's it...LOOK...like that...?"

RC sounds cool. Is it currently in print?

Sadly, no.  But there's a .pdf and it's $5.00 from Paizo (http://paizo.com/store/downloads/wizardsOfTheCoast/classicDAndD/rulebooks/v5748btpy7mvs).

Well, well worth the $5.

RPGPundit

I own four copies of the RC for a reason, namely, its complete awesomeness!

It's good and, even though spellcasters will still rule the roost, supports higher level play better than AD&D. If you're playing, a good piece of advice would be to avoid the Paragon immortal path at all costs. Especially if you're playing in Mystara. Seriously.

Actually the PDF that I got from rpgnow sucks. I don't know if it's the same or not, but it had such a dark background that I couldn't lighten it without affecting the text, so I was never able to print it out. I haven't seen a physical copy for less than $25, but you can find them on ebay.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;280700Sadly, no.  But there's a .pdf and it's $5.00 from Paizo (http://paizo.com/store/downloads/wizardsOfTheCoast/classicDAndD/rulebooks/v5748btpy7mvs).

Shit. I knew i shouldn't have bought the pdf. My piddly dial-up connection is telling me that it'll take 7 hours to download...:(

As i thought. My piddly PC cannot download it and i'm not resetting and starting again. I've bought the damned thing, so i don't mind asking if anyone here has the pdf that they wouldn't mind e-mailing me with. If a kind soul is game, i'll PM you my e-mail address.

Thanks awfully. :)

Edit: Actually, that could be too big a file for my e-mail to cope with. I wouldn't mind giving it a try though.

Quote from: One Horse Town;280755As i thought. My piddly PC cannot download it and i'm not resetting and starting again. I've bought the damned thing, so i don't mind asking if anyone here has the pdf that they wouldn't mind e-mailing me with. If a kind soul is game, i'll PM you my e-mail address.

Thanks awfully. :)

Edit: Actually, that could be too big a file for my e-mail to cope with. I wouldn't mind giving it a try though.

Do you know anyone with high speed internet and a CD burner?  If so just download it to their computer and copy it to a CD.

Heck, you might be able to do it at a public library or university.

Quote from: DeadUematsu;280740It's good and, even though spellcasters will still rule the roost, supports higher level play better than AD&D. If you're playing, a good piece of advice would be to avoid the Paragon immortal path at all costs. Especially if you're playing in Mystara. Seriously.

On a similar note, Frank Mentzer, the man who wrote the original BECMI series of books - of which RC is basically just a restatement -, suggests here (http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=10717&hilit=polymath&start=2505) that regardless of what the book says, the Polymath path should be favoured by Thieves and the Epic Hero by Fighters, not the other way around.

First, I just wanted to post in a thread started by Eric the Actor.

Second, I'll chime in with praise for the Rules Cyclopedia. While it's a compilation of the "Basic/Expert/etc." boxed sets, which differs from the AD&D 1e I liked a lot better, the RC is a solid, one-book version of D&D that the game sorely needs.

RC is perhaps the single most complete volume of the classic D&D game... I can't think of any other one book you could buy that would so completely support all levels of play.

RCs are getting expensive... I found one last year in immaculate condition for $25, a feat I don't think I'd be able to repeat.  Your other option would be to go with some sort of simulacrum product... I recently bought a copy of Labyrinth Lord and plan on bringing that to the table instead to save wear and tear on my old books.  The simulacrum games are similar enough that you could import optional RC systems whole-hog with little difficulty, in fact I've seen a few PDFs of BECMI-style systems for LL and BFRPG.  

Really, what I'll end up running is LL with D&D/AD&D monster supplements (AC9, the Fiend Folio, and the Random Esoteric Creature Generator), the jousting rules from Chainmail, and Mass Combat and Dominion rules from BECMI/RC should the players ever get there.  I'll also probably import the high-level options for fighters and clerics (Paladins, Avengers, Knights and Druids) but again that's sometime down the road.

A $5 PDF is certainly a good deal, its a very detailed system, the result of nearly two decades of development.  I heard the scan wasn't of the best quality though.

Quote from: Technomancer;280761Do you know anyone with high speed internet and a CD burner?  If so just download it to their computer and copy it to a CD.

Heck, you might be able to do it at a public library or university.

Not for a while. I've asked customer services if there is any way around it. We'll see, i guess.

Quote from: One Horse Town;280755As i thought. My piddly PC cannot download it and i'm not resetting and starting again. I've bought the damned thing, so i don't mind asking if anyone here has the pdf that they wouldn't mind e-mailing me with. If a kind soul is game, i'll PM you my e-mail address.

Thanks awfully. :)

Edit: Actually, that could be too big a file for my e-mail to cope with. I wouldn't mind giving it a try though.

You could get Free Download Manager (http://www.freedownloadmanager.org), then download the pdf using that. That way if your connection drops out, you won't have to start again.

I like the RC for collecting the BECM rules into a single volume (despite a few errors, here and there, and despite the horrible interior art).

If you're looking for an in-print book that won't cost you an arm and a leg (and with a free PDF), you might consider Labyrinth Lord (http://www.goblinoidgames.com/labyrinthlord.htm), which is a B/X retro-clone that's even available through Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Labyrinth-Lord-Daniel-Proctor/dp/0615150314/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233125056&sr=8-1).  Like any retro-clone, there are a few minor differences from the original B/X rules, but you can check out the PDF for free to see if it's your thing, or not.

Quote from: Age of Fable;280794You could get Free Download Manager (http://www.freedownloadmanager.org), then download the pdf using that. That way if your connection drops out, you won't have to start again.

Better yet, get out of the 90's and upgrade from dial-up.  :D

On a serious note, didn't one of the online places offer to burn purchased pdfs to a cd and ship it to you?  I seem to remember that being an option from one of the sites (can't remember which), but maybe I'm mistaken.  Granted, even if available that would cost more.

I prefer Holmes over Mentzer but the RC is a good book.  Some things about Basic bother me a bit, such as race/class and 3 alignments.  But Basic strips away some of the poorly motivated complexities of AD&D. RC gives you all the rules in one hardbound book, which is handy as my basic and expert rule books are in very poor shape.

Quote from: Nicephorus;281008Some things about Basic bother me a bit, such as race/class and 3 alignments.

I still think Alignment Languages are tricky to use in a semi-realistic way, but race/class is now something I like (again) very much.

[Aside]I'm going to be starting a game using B/X in March. At the moment it looks like it could be a pretty big group.  Old School big. :D[/aside]

I meant the 3 vs. 9 alignments of D&D vs. AD&D. But it's a very minor thing as it's easy to switch one for the other or largely ignore alignment.

Quote from: Nicephorus;281008I prefer Holmes over Mentzer but the RC is a good book.  Some things about Basic bother me a bit, such as race/class and 3 alignments.  But Basic strips away some of the poorly motivated complexities of AD&D. RC gives you all the rules in one hardbound book, which is handy as my basic and expert rule books are in very poor shape.

Actually I've always preferred the simple, iconic classes of basic D&D. It's just more pure. Half-elves? Multi-classed characters? Level 1 paladins? It just seems wrong to me!

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;280992I like the RC for collecting the BECM rules into a single volume (despite a few errors, here and there, and despite the horrible interior art).

If you're looking for an in-print book that won't cost you an arm and a leg (and with a free PDF), you might consider Labyrinth Lord (http://www.goblinoidgames.com/labyrinthlord.htm), which is a B/X retro-clone that's even available through Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Labyrinth-Lord-Daniel-Proctor/dp/0615150314/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233125056&sr=8-1).  Like any retro-clone, there are a few minor differences from the original B/X rules, but you can check out the PDF for free to see if it's your thing, or not.

The only advantage Labyrinth Lord has over RC is that LL is free.
Aside from that, like most "retro-clones" it ends up being a poorer product than the original, and when I read it I was smacking my head asking myself "why the fuck would anyone do this?! Why take the original and make tiny pointless fucking changes and then call it an entirely different game?  Why would anyone PLAY this instead of the original?"

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;281172The only advantage Labyrinth Lord has over RC is that LL is free.

Well, yeah, so it's a good way to see if the system works for you.  And you can get a new book (hardcover or softback) in print for cheaper than a used RC (unless you're super lucky).  And if you like B/X better than BECM, LL might be one-book solution that is closer to your preferences than the RC.  (And the RC's interior art bugs the shit out of me.)

QuoteAside from that, like most "retro-clones" it ends up being a poorer product than the original, and when I read it I was smacking my head asking myself "why the fuck would anyone do this?! Why take the original and make tiny pointless fucking changes and then call it an entirely different game?  Why would anyone PLAY this instead of the original?"

In almost all cases, I'd encourage people to play the original.  That is, if you like B/X, then get those boxed sets with the Erol Otus cover art and go to it.  If you like original D&D, then get on ebay or purchase some PDFs and go to it.

But, I also think the retro-clones have their place.  I addressed that in the other thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=281362&postcount=40), already, so I won't repeat it, here.

Quote from: RPGPundit;281172The only advantage Labyrinth Lord has over RC is that LL is free...

People reading LL should know that it is based on the Moldvay/Cook Basic/Expert D&D rules, not the BECM/RC D&D rules.  LL is not meant to be a 'retro-clone' of the RC.

Quote from: RPGPundit;281172... when I read it I was smacking my head asking myself "why the fuck would anyone do this?! Why take the original and make tiny pointless fucking changes and then call it an entirely different game?  Why would anyone PLAY this instead of the original?"

RPGPundit

The minor changes are included for legal reasons.  

They're meant to be minor enough to (1) not substantially affect how the game is played (the experience of playing LL is pretty much the same as the experience of playing Basic/Expert D&D), and (2) the material produced for the retro-clone can be used directly with the original game.

It's really quite simple.

Quote from: Akrasia;281367People reading LL should know that it is based on the Moldvay/Cook Basic/Expert D&D rules, not the BECM/RC D&D rules.  LL is not meant to be a 'retro-clone' of the RC.

Yeah, I probably should have made that clearer.  I forget that not everyone knows of (or cares about) about the distinctions between stuff like 'BECM' and 'B/X'.

Right now I'm writing out some of the house rules for the game I'm running in March.  I have the Moldvay book next to me, but I've used the LL PDF a few times because it's easier to do quick searches with it.

Quote from: Stuart;281403

Could be because the monetary/economic system of D&D is completely whacked and prices don't make a hell of a lot of sense.  

Here's what I'm using: Philotomy's OD&D price list (http://www.philotomy.com/price-list.pdf).  In this price system, you can think of a CP as being $2, a SP as being $10, and a GP as being $100 (all very roughly, of course).  It helps in estimating prices.  Not perfect, of course, but I like it better than the standard prices, and the monthly hireling prices help put things into perspective.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;281406Here's what I'm using: Philotomy's OD&D price list (http://www.philotomy.com/price-list.pdf).  In this price system, you can think of a CP as being $2, a SP as being $10, and a GP as being $100 (all very roughly, of course).  It helps in estimating prices.  Not perfect, of course, but I like it better than the standard prices, and the monthly hireling prices help put things into perspective.

Thanks for sharing that! [I missed that link on your site ;-) ]

Using that list have you found it greatly changed the gear your players choose for their 1st level characters?

QuoteThanks for sharing that! [I missed that link on your site ;-) ]

You're welcome; I hope it's useful.  It's a fairly new thing, for me; I don't think I actually have it linked on my site, even though the document is "out there."

QuoteUsing that list have you found it greatly changed the gear your players choose for their 1st level characters?

No, not so far.  That could be because OD&D starting money (i.e. 3d6 x 10 gp) works out as pretty generous: if you get a 10, that's 100 gp, which is kinda like $10,000.  Also, many of the prices didn't change (or didn't change much) under this valuation of gold.  One way to address this would be to alter the starting money, but I haven't felt any great need to do so.  

One thing it *has* done is alter the way I arm NPCs, because weapons like swords and bows are quite valuable.  Good gear tends to indicate success (e.g. a capable and probably dangerous mercenary), wealthy backing (e.g. a guard armed and equipped by his merchant employer), or nobility.  A common man-at-arms or brigand is more likely to have a spear instead of a longsword.  Et cetera.

The main thing I like about it is that there's at least some baseline for prices, and for coming up with prices in-game.  It also makes the "I slip the bartender a gold piece" have more meaning when you think of the gold piece as kinda like $100 bill.  A fantasy world's economy and prices aren't directly convertible to modern prices, but at least it gives the DM and players something to go on, and some idea of what an appropriate price might be.

Interesting.  I like the list, but it doesn't jive with what I remember from the 80's and how Gygax made his AD&D monetary system.  The reason why he could do coin conversions in his head, while others had difficulty with the AD&D conversion rates is because he wasn't thinking of them in terms of AD&D.  He just used real American dollars.  

Here is the breakdown both ways.  It's simple once you see it laid out according to how Gygax used it. I've tossed in some low end Greyhawk currency too..

5 Platinum Pieces (pp)
1 Gold Pieces (gp)
2 Electrum Pieces (ep)
20 Silver Pieces (sp)
200 Copper Pieces (cp)
400 Brass Pieces (bp)
2000 Lead Pieces (lp)

$100 pp
$20 gp
$10 ep
$1 sp
$0.10 cp
$0.05 bp
$0.01 lp

Bronze is in there too somewhere.  I think it's equivalent to brass.  And no $5 bill / metal pieces were used to my knowledge.  But once you get the formula, it isn't hard at all to do conversions.

QuoteI like the list, but it doesn't jive with what I remember from the 80's and how Gygax made his AD&D monetary system.

Interesting.  I didn't know EGG did that with D&D currency.  I know he followed a similar, but probably more holistic or top-down approach to currency and economics (e.g. wages and incomes by social class) in Mythus and Lejendary Adventure.  (FWIW, I didn't put much consideration into the approach in AD&D; I was mainly referencing the coinage and prices in OD&D.)

I considered applying this approach to the existing D&D price list and hireling/wage information, but I couldn't get a satisfying consistency*, so I decided to start with the precious metal valuation and then go from there, altering price and wage lists to fit (which is basically what EGG did in Lejendary Adventure, although his valuation of gold is 5x higher than what I chose).


* - This kind of thing probably wouldn't bother most people and may not be worth worrying about, in that case.  It's just one of those things, for me.

That's very interesting.  So was Gary converting the cost of a meal in a fast-food joint in the 70s (say $5) into fantasy money ($5 --> 5 sp) to say how much a meal cost in a tavern?

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;281646Interesting.  I didn't know EGG did that with D&D currency.  I know he followed a similar, but probably more holistic or top-down approach to currency and economics (e.g. wages and incomes by social class) in Mythus and Lejendary Adventure.  (FWIW, I didn't put much consideration into the approach in AD&D; I was mainly referencing the coinage and prices in OD&D.)

I considered applying this approach to the existing D&D price list and hireling/wage information, but I couldn't get a satisfying consistency*, so I decided to start with the precious metal valuation and then go from there, altering price and wage lists to fit (which is basically what EGG did in Lejendary Adventure, although his valuation of gold is 5x higher than what I chose).


* - This kind of thing probably wouldn't bother most people and may not be worth worrying about, in that case.  It's just one of those things, for me.

That's cool.  I don't think any of this is stickler stuff. It's about how easy it is on the DM.  I believe Gary was going more and more to a realistic depiction of medieval Europe as he progressed in his setting and system creation.  LA was based on real world metal availability, but, yeah, I don't know why he went with the weird gold evaluation.  For DJ, read below.

Quote from: Stuart;281657That's very interesting.  So was Gary converting the cost of a meal in a fast-food joint in the 70s (say $5) into fantasy money ($5 --> 5 sp) to say how much a meal cost in a tavern?

In all likelihood he did just that.  If you ever read the Dangerous Journeys gamebooks, his monetary system there was called the BUC System.  Base Unit Coin.

The idea was, who ever used the game could change their real world currency to game prices and game currency using how many BUCs the coins were worth.  All game prices were listed in BUCs and a BUC was worth whatever base currency you wanted to use from the real world.  So, in effect, a BUC equaled a buck.  And if the DM ever needed to figure out how much something cost, he recalled the real world price and did the conversion.  Or just said 50 BUCs.

There were some other interesting things from DJ I liked too, like the SHADOWS system, but a lot of it I don't care for.  Not a fan of skill mechanics myself.