I just received my copy of the 5E HackMaster Player's Handbook and it has got me to thinking. Gosh, the system is so fiddly; building points, tons of skills, detailed combat system and generally lots of fiddly bits. It is all very neat but I am not sure it is what I want anymore. If I wanted all that detail I would just play Pathfinder...

I have decided that what I really wanted from HackMaster was a 'gonzo' version of D&D; one free from gobs of modifiers and detailed rule systems - and the more I read of my Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG book the more I think it fits that bill perfectly. It doesn't take itself too seriously and the rules are just detailed enough to be satisfying. On top of that, the adventures for the system that I have read so far have all been pretty darn good.

So, when I want 'vanilla' D&D, I have Adventurer Conqueror King and when I want 'gonzo' D&D I have the Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG. It's a good time to be a gamer!

Quote from: AnthonyRoberson;561083So, when I want 'vanilla' D&D, I have Adventurer Conqueror King and when I want 'gonzo' D&D I have the Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG. It's a good time to be a gamer!

I've been going back and forth between those two in my head lately wondering what game ideas to use with which game and sometimes stopping to a crawl and having a really hard time to choose (for instance in a more Chaos inclined version of Hawkmoon's Europe where ancient technology and arcane magic would be so similar in feel and outcomes, from the world's inhabitants' POV, that they would both use the same rules, thus leading to all sorts of superstitions and misinterpretations in the game world).

What's particularly interesting is that both games are based on B/X as a starting point, and yet, went in COMPLETELY different directions from there.

Adventurer Conqueror King System indeed feels like a streamlined, smoother game experience that feels like D&D at first but expands the play experience (particularly as it relates to the game world, not only in terms of domain management but also with stuff like getting your undead and golems, populating your own character's sanctum dungeons and the like) in such a way that it ends up feeling like a slightly different, yet recognizable game. It's clean and well-explained, with many examples, solid steps of methodologies and so on.

Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG by comparison is a totally warped, acid-infused, insane rock-and-roll version of the game. It's like it's sucked the substance of Moorcock, HPL, CAS and the others to create its own game paradigm that reminds me of a whole bunch of games of the 80s (Rolemaster, Warhammer, Stormbringer to name a few) and yet is its own "thing" really. It's chaotic, you hear the voice of the author talking to you as you read it, there is at times a glorious disorganization to it (like a lack of Index, to begin with, and a relatively sparse TOC that pretty much force you to know the organization of the book and recognize the pages by sight as you flip through it), and at the same time it's dripping with passion, ideas, and just plain makes you want to play RIGHT FUCKING NOW.

Very different games. Both interesting in their own particular ways.

Quote from: Benoist;561087Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG... at the same time it's dripping with passion, ideas, and just plain makes you want to play RIGHT FUCKING NOW.

Very different games. Both interesting in their own particular ways.

THIS! Combined with some really cool adventures, DCC is a game that just screams to be played and not just sit on a dusty game shelf...

We're starting DCC next week. I'm thinking of going with Perils of the Sunken City: it's got a nice fantasy StarGate thing going for it which will work well for our group. I'm excited to begin, as others have said it's oozing with ideas. But I do wonder if it's similarly oozing with possibilities, that is, can DCC power a fantasy campaign that doesn't have the out-of-the-box DCC atmosphere - not to say that I don't like that atmosphere.

RuneQuest or (A)D&D can run a variety of time periods, locales, themes, and so on. DCC's corruption rules for magic, disappointed deities, etc. might keep bringing one back to the same "feel". I'm not saying DCC is straitjacketed to its specific genre, I'm just wondering, y'know, will there be a variety of settings for DCC and will they work.

I bought into HackMaster for a while (maybe the most awesome RPG title ever ... HackMaster!) but I found it to be just too rules clunky somehow. It didn't really seem to improve on anything else on my shelf. Not a bad game, but not better than a half dozen others I have such as AD&D or C&C.

Quote from: Benoist;561087It's chaotic, you hear the voice of the author talking to you as you read it, there is at times a glorious disorganization to it (like a lack of Index, to begin with, and a relatively sparse TOC that pretty much force you to know the organization of the book and recognize the pages by sight as you flip through it), and at the same time it's dripping with passion, ideas, and just plain makes you want to play RIGHT FUCKING NOW.

I get you! The DCC RPG has simple rules and the artwork helps to build the atmosphere of awesomeness. The book just shouts "play me!" at me every time I open it. :-)

Quote from: languagegeek;561137I'm just wondering, y'know, will there be a variety of settings for DCC and will they work.

I'm not entirely certain how to address this, because I'm not sure what you classify as "a variety" of settings ... 2? 12? How many?

Goodman Games' modules are all set in the same campaign, I think, so that should provide a setting.

A setting called "Transylvanian Adventures" is being written at the moment, and it's supposed to emulate a horror style.

Some of the other third party publishers are making multiple modules in one setting -- does that count?
* Purple Sorcerer Games is developing their own module series.
* Brave Halfling Publishing is developing a module line and a campaign setting to go with it.

Obviously, many of these campaigns are fantasy or S&S style settings. I haven't heard about anyone doing "scifi DCC" or "modern DCC" yet, but who knows.

One of us has picked up the DCC RPG and I just know I'll eventually break down and buy it. Even though (1) ACKS is everything I ever wanted out of D&D and (2) I already own more [strike]fantasy[/strike] RPGs than I can ever possibly hope to find the time to play.

While ACKS is immediately recognizable as a D&D simulacrum (possibly the best refinement of D&D ever, in my book), DCC feels more like its own thing; almost, but not quite, a different game. It feels like even more of a pulp fantasy RPG than baseline D&D. Rules-wise, an ACKS campaign would benefit from the familiarity of D&D plus streamlined mechanics, while a DCC campaign would benefit from the sheer craziness of rules like spell failure and corruption and patrons and mighty deeds of valor and Neutral clerics of Cthulhu and shit.

Our DCC-owning buddy has promised us a campaign using our own misterguignol's Tome of the Grotesque & Dungeonesque. I can't wait. If I was running it, though, I'd probably go for a über-gonzo post-apocalyptic sci-fantasy deal a la Aos' Metal Earth.

Quote from: The Butcher;561343DCC feels more like its own thing; almost, but not quite, a different game. It feels like even more of a pulp fantasy RPG than baseline D&D.

This is correct. DCC isn't supposed to be a clone or anything like that. It's supposed to be its own game.

It's more of an alternate history thing: "What if the designers of D&D in 1974 focussed more on the pulp swords & sorcery fiction in Appendix N. What might it look like?"

I would love to hear someone say that DCC is "just another D&D clone" so I can jump in and say "but this one goes up to 11!"

Quote from: finarvyn;561264I'm not entirely certain how to address this, because I'm not sure what you classify as "a variety" of settings ... 2? 12? How many?

There seem to be a good bunch of creative minds setting out to work on DCC projects. I have or will have the goodman games, purplesorcerer, and brave halfling modules and am very excited about the sort of fantasy they appear to be. As I said, out of everything on the bookshelf, this is what we want to play next.

Actions in DCC-world seems, well, "dicey": nothing is predictable and stuff can blow up in your face often enough. The Fates are fickle, the gods can leave you in the lurch on a whim, that kinda thing. I guess one could take out or change the corruption tables, the crits/fumbles, the variable spell effects to suit a different sort of setting (historical? gritty?), but then it wouldn't be recognizably DCC any more.

DCC is just another D&D clone.

Quote from: Spinachcat;561488DCC is just another D&D clone.

Not in the same sense that LL, S&W, and OSRIC are clones. It is hybrid of D&D elements and some funky new stuff without being too terribly complex.

Quote from: Spinachcat;561488DCC is just another D&D clone.

But this one goes up to 11!

Quote from: Spinachcat;561488DCC is just another D&D clone.

I find the claim that it is not a D&D clone to be rather funny considering the Beta version began with an explanation of the few bulleted ways in which the game was different from standard d20 D&D.

At best, I'd call it "D&D for Hipsters".

I'm happy for people who like it, but it didn't do anything for me at all.

Quote from: jgants;561539At best, I'd call it "D&D for Hipsters".

Nah, that's 13th Age.