Dungeons are, of course, just about the least historically sensible thing in all of D&D's setting-assumptions. There were never vast dungeons beneath wizard's towers in the real world, much less in just random places in the middle of the wilderness.
There were "dungeons" beneath some castles and such, but they were basically prisons, and nothing like the dungeon complexes of Gygaxian invention.
Does anyone here know anything about how the IDEA of playing in a dungeon came into being, and why? Geezer?
And when you run fantasy games, do you care that your dungeons have some sense or purpose; do you try to make them seem "realistic" or at least "logical"? ie. choose ruined castles, or catacombs or mines in place of the "bunch of rooms and corridors and stairs and other weird things underground"? Or do you just go whole-hog for the latter?
RPGPundit
Lord of the Rings Moria. What spawned that I have no idea. Egyptian pyramids maybe and Pompeii.
I base my ruins on abandoned castles, sunken cities and catacombs. Drawing real life inspiration from the Catacombs below paris the built over cities in Scotland and crazy ass Castles like Chillingham.
I don't really care for dungeon crawls, I'm not sure I've run one, however in the scheme of things the idea of trying to make it sensible or realistic sort of defeats the whole purpose of it; which is basically to pack a lot of game content into a small, controlled environment for a tactical, attritional challenge.
From the originator himself
QuoteRole playing came into it's own for me when I thought about using the
Medieval skirmish rules called CHAINMAIL along with the individual goal
concept explored in the Braunstiens.
Having a weekend off from refereeing our group's Napolenic campaign (A
wargame with national goals set by the players) I spent the time reading
CONAN novels and watching old monster movies while munching on popcorn.
Set in a town called BLACKMOOR. Actually mostly the graph paper dungeon under the castle and town. The previous games had all been 'on the board' but it's hard to hide things there. A totally unseen dungeon maze added additional
territory and to hide several nasty beasts therein.
http://jovianclouds.com/blackmoor/ArchiveOld/rpg2.html
The dungeon was chosen because of Fog of War issues. Labyrinth of the Minotaur and Moria probably contributed as seeds but it looks like the main reason was just pure practicality.
You have to remember these guys were heavy Minature Wargamers. If you look in First Fantasy Campaign there are several references to town layouts that were real setups on sand and boards. So it is natural that in order to create some unknowns that a dungeon would be used in place of the sand table. I believe the use of graph paper came through mapping siege tunnels when they played. Dave combined all these elements into the first Blackmoor game.
Once the first level was in place than going deeper was the next logical step. First there was 6 levels (1d6) then more added later. When the character got to higher levels they started adventuring outside. Finally when they wanted to establish their own realms Dave used the Outdoor Survival Map.
Naturally as the "Blackmoor" game spread in the region that people adopted the multi-level dungeon and other conventions of Dave's Group. And when TSR published D&D and it was bought by other groups that had none of the assumptions of the Lake Geneva/Minnesota people RPGs started diversifying into what we see now.
Quote from: RPGPundit;309781And when you run fantasy games, do you care that your dungeons have some sense or purpose; do you try to make them seem "realistic" or at least "logical"? ie. choose ruined castles, or catacombs or mines in place of the "bunch of rooms and corridors and stairs and other weird things underground"? Or do you just go whole-hog for the latter?
For a long time I was hung up on making my fantasy "realistic". The dungeon (whatever it was, castle, mine, creature's lair) had to have a realistic purpose (or have had one at one time), and I still try to keep that in mind. However, after reading Philotomy's OD&D Musings about the dungeon as a mythic underworld (http://www.philotomy.com/#dungeon) with its own reality and separate laws, I have been more inclined to throw in some of the gonzo.
I'm definitely with Philotomy - OD&D called it The Underworld, and that's what it is - the mythic Underworld of Joseph Campbell's Hero With A Thousand Faces (the PC). The Realm of Chaos beyond The Threshold.
Quote from: RPGPundit;309781Dungeons are, of course, just about the least historically sensible thing in all of D&D's setting-assumptions. There were never vast dungeons beneath wizard's towers in the real world, much less in just random places in the middle of the wilderness.
RPGPundit
There were wizards in the real world?
:D;)
On a more serious note, I like it if the DM throws some bones towards "believeablily" but I don't require the whole thing to be utterly, grittily REAL. Throwing in a kobold midden pit is great. ONCE. Having us discover countless 5x5 rooms with a small hole cut into a bench, the kobold "shower room" and packing the thing with enough barrels of dry rations, water jugs and nails to sustain a community of 1000 kobolds indefinately is taking things a bit too far.
Dungeons are their own thing. When designing/running them, I just assume things like bathrooms and the like are THERE, but I don't have to describe every one, or force the PCs to map out the location of every closet they shove their greasy rags into.
Realism in fantasy is cool, but it should still be FANTASY. In D&D, I want ancient ruins to troll, orcs to slay, damsels to resuce, treasure to find, MacGuffins to MacGuff and dragons and glowing swords and fireballs.
Another literary antecedent to D&D's dungeons is Conan. "The Scarlet Citadel" and "Xuthal of the Dusk" are both fairly dungeon-like. "Tower of the Elephant", sort of.
Vance's The Dying Earth also has a bit of a dungeon in "Guyal of Sfere".
And the Lankhmar stories include "Quarmall", also somewhat dungeon-like. You could also add much of Swords of Lankhmar.
Elliot - I like your bunny.
Quote from: Technomancer;309796... Philotomy's OD&D Musings about the dungeon as a mythic underworld (http://www.philotomy.com/#dungeon) with its own reality and separate laws ....
That musing is brilliant. It changed the way that I think of dungeons as well. :wizard:
Nope,
Love the mythic underworld idea, but 99% of the time, a trip underground is created as logically as possible. This includes a certain amount of boring rooms, I'll admit. But PCs can use logic a little more easily.
This is for a modern setting but it is still relevant to the topic.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=391379
Gygax cites Margaret St. Clair's "Sign of the Labrys" in Appendix N of the 1e DMG. It's a post-apocalyptic story, and the bulk of the action takes place in a multilevel, sprawling, underground science & technology complex that has been partially abandoned, partially ruined and looted, and is still partially inhabited. A lot of classic D&D dungeon tropes seem to have come from here, including a bewildering array of fungi, wandering monsters, and bizarre traps seemingly placed at random.
Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;309809There were wizards in the real world?
:D;)
Yes. But none of them seem to have made it to 1st level....
Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;309812Elliot - I like your bunny.
Thanks, he's the best f***in' rabbit in the world. PM me and I'll send you a link to his awesomeness.
Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;309809There were wizards in the real world?
:D;)
Quite a few, although most didn't amount to much. Even today there still are many people who claim to practice what amounts to magic, and gain significant amounts of money or power by doing so. ;)
Even without the mythic underworld concept, fantasy settings contain dwarves and other subterranean dwellers who make tunnel complexes the same way surface-dwellers build cities. In folklore they were mostly part of the underworld, but in a lot of settings they're a bit more mundane.
I also recommend "The Descent" by Jeff Long. It's basically about a mining company discovering an under-earth of tunnels and caverns, which, of course, necessitates sending a bunch of marines down to subdue the denizens.
I haven't seen the film based on the book, but I hear it's good but very different.
real world rabbits, prairie dogs, insects, and rodents often burrow extensively.
Canids, weasels, some reptiles, and some birds dig shallower burrows.
A gameword with giant ones should have correspondingly larger burrows....
Quote from: aramis;309865real world rabbits, prairie dogs, insects, and rodents often burrow extensively.
Canids, weasels, some reptiles, and some birds dig shallower burrows.
A gameword with giant ones should have correspondingly larger burrows....
Something like a bulette would leave an extensive tunnel network in its territory. After it died, who knows what might move in.
Quote from: Technomancer;309796after reading Philotomy's OD&D Musings about the dungeon as a mythic underworld (http://www.philotomy.com/#dungeon) with its own reality and separate laws, I have been more inclined to throw in some of the gonzo.
This particular musing made it into Knockspell, issue #2.
Which, like others have pointed out before me, is totally deserved, if you ask me.
Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;309809There were wizards in the real world?
Exactly.
Calling
dungeons the "least historically sensible" thing about D&D when we also have magic missiles, umberhulks and ales for a gold piece, well...
Once you have magic, and monsters, and dwarves and elves and so on, it makes sense that some of them will live underground in areas which are labyrinthine, or which are labyrinthine in other ways, for example swamps, woods, rocky canyons, etc.
As for a dungeon of lots of different creatures and traps, well it can be made in a sensible way. In a real world forest you can't kick a dead log without find a zillion things that've decided to live there, fungi and beetles and worms and spiders and possums and feral cats hiding behind it, and so on. So if someone built a labyrinth full of traps - for whatever reason - but stupidly left a door open, or if there were earth subsidence over the years and cracks appeared, and if there existed fantastical magical creatures, well they need somewhere to live, too. So they move in.
You
can make it gonzo and crazy, with orcs living in a room next to skeletons and a 50 foot dragon in a 10 foot room, and fungi masquerading as treasure, and needlessly elaborate traps that 200 years of monsters stomping about somehow never set off, and humans waiting like ninjas on the ceiling for centuries just in case an explorer happens by - but it doesn't have to be so.
It's possible to do better than George Lucas at designing dungeons :p
Journey to the center of the Earth is an outstanding mythic underworld that predates D&D.
HP Lovecraft has some locations that could be considered mythic underworlds but the pacing isn't right for D&D.
Yeah dungeon is really just a catch all term for an adventure site. Rarely are they generic dungeons with the 10x10 room with an orc in it.
Most of them tend to have some ecology or point to them, outside of the odd retro dungeon which is just there to be a proving ground like complex designed to keep people out of it.
Not that most RPG dungeons still don't do that, but if you think about it, what is the Death Star but a sci fi dungeon? Its got reasons to exist and be tons of hallways and such, but its a dungeon.
Your average castle or military base is a dungeon. Howe Caverns up in New York State (IIRC the location) is a big cave complex and thus a dungeon of the underworld variety.
New York City in Escape from New York is a dungeon. A really zoggin huge one. The skyscraper in Die Hard is a dungeon.
Quote from: kryyst;309784What spawned that I have no idea. Egyptian pyramids maybe and Pompeii.
That would be my bet too. Gygax' love of Egpyt makes the Tomb of Tut-Ankh-Amon a natural choice. I mean, look at this visual - you could easily run a session of D&D based on "the tomb", and that's not even talking about Gygax' later work (
Necropolis):
http://www.gearthblog.com/images/images2006/kv62.jpg
I also agree with Elliot Willen that Leiber's Swords Cycle was a primary influence. I'm rereading it now, and the moment when Fafhrd hits the Thieves Guild' forgotten underground tomb while the Mouser retrieves a cursed skull
with ruby eyes? It certainly doesn't get more acererak than that.
Vance's Planet of Adventure also had an entire underworld of tunnels under its surface (explored at some length in The Pnume). Also, while not an actual D&D inspiration, I really like this article (http://outside.away.com/magazine/0997/9709under.html) about the multi-level megadungeon below Moscow. Complete with cultists, orcs, treasure rooms and adventurers no less.
Did kids explore storm water drains and under houses the like before D&D? If so, it's probably a small step to "it'd be cool if there was buried treasure here...and monsters."
I've been using the dungeon-as-underworld metaphor since first reading Dragon Warriors back in the '80s. I generally find such creepy, otherworldly, subtly supernatural environments more satisying to design and play through than the logistically coherent monster accommodation that currently prevails.
Flint Dille told me a story once that he said was told to him by Gygax himself about the origins of dungeons as an adventure medium:
A wargame had reached it's end, with players invading a castle. They had successfully reached the throne room. It was very late at night, like 3Am, so game over, the players won. The players demanded to know what happens next.
The referee said well, ok, you get to the throne room, and the ruler throws a switch and disappears down a secret door, thus escaping. The end.
This was how secret doors were kind of established as a feature of dungeons as well, according to Flint.
The players said "well, that sucks. We chase him!"
So the referee, being tired, attempted to dissuade them. There's a trap. Some of you die. (Which established that traps are found in dungeons).
At this point the players continued to press on. The referee had no map, and no real plan, and he was very tired, so he started making things up. The miniatures used in the castle battle weren't really useful at this point.
Good lord, where to start?
Moria. Angband. The dungeons of the "Necromancer" (nee Sauron). The tunnels (yes!) of the elves of king Thranduril, the caves of the goblins of the Misty Mountains. And that's just Tolkien.
Someone mentioned Quarmall. There's also Stardock, there's the tunnels leading to the sometimes-lairs of Sheelba and Ningabule, the castle in Adept's Gambit, the warrens of the rat-men, and I'm sure I'm missing more from Mr. Leiber.
Jack Vance has already been covered thoroughly enough by someone else.
Let's go sci-fi (or at least, sci-fantasy): the Death Star, any of the Berserker's base-ships...
Point is, there's plenty of literary backing for dungeons. And anyway? Fuck realism, they're fun.
If you're some stick-in-the-mud DM who thinks that role-playing taxes and running errands around a town for some minor bureaucrat is fun, I pity you.
The fascination with underground caves is ageless. The tale of Orpheus comes to mind. Dungeon crawlers risk their life for a cause (or just some loot) like the hero of old did. There's no negotiation with Hades though, unless you consider the GM to be the keeper of the underworld. I think Jules Verne has played a role too in creating dungeon fetish.
Oh yes, and let us not forget A. Merritt's Face in the Abyss, which has a place that's almost exactly like a megadungeon. In EGG's Appendix N, I believe it is mentioned as a primary inspiration for the game.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;309811Another literary antecedent to D&D's dungeons is Conan. "The Scarlet Citadel" and "Xuthal of the Dusk" are both fairly dungeon-like. "Tower of the Elephant", sort of.
Vance's The Dying Earth also has a bit of a dungeon in "Guyal of Sfere".
And the Lankhmar stories include "Quarmall", also somewhat dungeon-like. You could also add much of Swords of Lankhmar.
Right.
Dave put the dungeon under Blackmoor based on that he thought it would be cool.
Gary's favorite REH story was Red Nails, which mentions vast pits under the place they are. Barsoomian cities also had huge labyrinthine pits, and Gary LOVED Lankhmar. Quarmall was a huge influence.
Just like Clerics came about because Dave wanted to slow down Sir Fang, and Monks came about because Jim Ward thought the song "Kung Fu Fighting" was hilarious so he put "Chaotic Kung Fu Fighters" in his dungeon.
In other words, we made up some shit that we thought would be fun. We never, ever dreamed people would take it so fucking seriously.
Quote from: Old Geezer;309945In other words, we made up some shit that we thought would be fun. We never, ever dreamed people would take it so fucking seriously.
The tradition is still alive and well, despite what online discourse would indicate.
Quote from: kryyst;309784Lord of the Rings Moria. What spawned that I have no idea. Egyptian pyramids maybe and Pompeii.
Except Moria isn't like a D&D dungeon either. They're very different.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;309809There were wizards in the real world?
:D;)
Well, let's see. Thomas Bacon, Pope Sylvester II, Paracelsus, Agrippa, John Dee, Francis Bacon, possibly James I of England (the curse he laid on us pipe smokers is still going strong, at least).
Don't know which, if any of them, had towers.
RPGPundit
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;309822Gygax cites Margaret St. Clair's "Sign of the Labrys" in Appendix N of the 1e DMG. It's a post-apocalyptic story, and the bulk of the action takes place in a multilevel, sprawling, underground science & technology complex that has been partially abandoned, partially ruined and looted, and is still partially inhabited. A lot of classic D&D dungeon tropes seem to have come from here, including a bewildering array of fungi, wandering monsters, and bizarre traps seemingly placed at random.
Ahh, as usual, Gonzo has the answer. Who'd have thought that DUNGEONS, one half of the D&D name itself, are actually a cleverly hidden sci-fi-element-in-fantasy?
RPGPundit
It's a confluence of things.
First there's Dave's game where he had Blackmoor castle and, after playing that, found out the players wanted more of it. The only way to expand Blackmoor was down, so down he went... creating dungeons below.
There's also the metric ton of literary sources everyone points out.
There's also the concept of the mythological underworld (as Philotomy puts it) that meshed with all these events and ideas.
All these things gradually collided to create the concept of dungeon as it appears in the game.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;309811Another literary antecedent to D&D's dungeons is Conan. "The Scarlet Citadel" and "Xuthal of the Dusk" are both fairly dungeon-like. "Tower of the Elephant", sort of.
Vance's The Dying Earth also has a bit of a dungeon in "Guyal of Sfere".
And the Lankhmar stories include "Quarmall", also somewhat dungeon-like. You could also add much of Swords of Lankhmar.
I love all these stories, especially
The Scarlet Citadel and
Guyal of Sfere
Quote from: Old Geezer;309945In other words, we made up some shit that we thought would be fun. We never, ever dreamed people would take it so fucking seriously.
Lost me. Who is taking what so fucking seriously?
Quote from: RPGPundit;309984Ahh, as usual, Gonzo has the answer. Who'd have thought that DUNGEONS, one half of the D&D name itself, are actually a cleverly hidden sci-fi-element-in-fantasy?
RPGPundit
Gonzo? When did I become Gonzo? I've been called a lot of things in my life, but that's a first.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;309991Gonzo? When did I become Gonzo? I've been called a lot of things in my life, but that's a first.
I knew your avatar seemed familiar... :D
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;309991Gonzo? When did I become Gonzo? I've been called a lot of things in my life, but that's a first.
Your nose is turning the rest of us on.
Quote from: Benoist;309992I knew your avatar seemed familiar... :D
It's actually Buck Rogers, from the comic strip, circa the late 20s/early 30s...just to be didactic... :D
Quote from: Aos;309993Your nose is turning the rest of us on.
Aw, damn, I never think the Muppet Show when I see the word "Gonzo." I always think of Hunter S. Thompson.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;309991Gonzo? When did I become Gonzo? I've been called a lot of things in my life, but that's a first.
Sorry, Colonel Hardisson HAD the answer, Gonzo WAS the answer.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;309983Well, let's see. Thomas Bacon, Pope Sylvester II, Paracelsus, Agrippa, John Dee, Francis Bacon, possibly James I of England (the curse he laid on us pipe smokers is still going strong, at least).
Don't know which, if any of them, had towers.
RPGPundit
Anyone got any scans of old tymey etchings of Agrippa casting Fireball? Or Francis Bacon casting Disintegrate?
They were using a different magic system.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;310036They were using a different magic system.
RPGPundit
:D ha!
Quote from: RPGPundit;309781[snip]
And when you run fantasy games, do you care that your dungeons have some sense or purpose; do you try to make them seem "realistic" or at least "logical"? ie. choose ruined castles, or catacombs or mines in place of the "bunch of rooms and corridors and stairs and other weird things underground"? Or do you just go whole-hog for the latter?
RPGPundit
Yes, Yes and Yes.
I try to have at least a semblance of logic. I can get the same end effect of a "classic" weird dungeon layout by postulating it has been built up over hundreds of years, by different groups at different times. This is enough "logic" for me to justify a design I just think is cool and present tactical options.
I like to include mines, catacombs, chasms and such with rooms and corridors. A nice mix. To me, the best dungeon design is The Caverns of Thracia.
almost every dungeon I write up is a residential one. Therefore, I always figure out where the following goodies are:
1) The midden and privy.
2) the kitchen & ovens
3) the cold cellar (usually cooled by a nearby stream)
4) the residences.
5) the potable water source.
Quote from: RPGPundit;309982Except Moria isn't like a D&D dungeon either.
For what it's worth, which is probably very little, on the very first occasion of my exposure to White Box D&D back in circa 1977, I immediately thought of it as based on Moria, and I thought of Moria as the coolest part of The Lord of the Rings.
BTW, somehow we've all forgotten that the goblin tunnels in The Hobbit are a classic dungeon. And the book has other subterranean elements such as the trolls' lair, the prisons of the elf king, and the interior of the Lonely Mountain. Even though none of them had the sort of twisty tunnels vibe that I consider essential to real dungeons, they did inculcate in my young mind the idea that if you find a hole in the ground and explore it, you might run into monsters and/or treasure.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;310091BTW, somehow we've all forgotten that the goblin tunnels in The Hobbit are a classic dungeon. And the book has other subterranean elements such as the trolls' lair, the prisons of the elf king, and the interior of the Lonely Mountain. Even though none of them had the sort of twisty tunnels vibe that I consider essential to real dungeons, they did inculcate in my young mind the idea that if you find a hole in the ground and explore it, you might run into monsters and/or treasure.
Indeed. My earliest D&D dungeons were heavily informed by locations and events in the Hobbit, including a mass combat at the mouth of the Caves of Chaos where the PCs were aided by a friendly Werebear.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;310091For what it's worth, which is probably very little, on the very first occasion of my exposure to White Box D&D back in circa 1977, I immediately thought of it as based on Moria, and I thought of Moria as the coolest part of The Lord of the Rings.
BTW, somehow we've all forgotten that the goblin tunnels in The Hobbit are a classic dungeon. And the book has other subterranean elements such as the trolls' lair, the prisons of the elf king, and the interior of the Lonely Mountain. Even though none of them had the sort of twisty tunnels vibe that I consider essential to real dungeons, they did inculcate in my young mind the idea that if you find a hole in the ground and explore it, you might run into monsters and/or treasure.
And Shelob's lair.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;310091For what it's worth, which is probably very little, on the very first occasion of my exposure to White Box D&D back in circa 1977, I immediately thought of it as based on Moria, and I thought of Moria as the coolest part of The Lord of the Rings.
I could have written that post- except it would have been 1979 for me. Reading
The Scarlet Citadel changed my perspective somewhat. Reading this thread has changed it more.
Quote from: Aos;310124I could have written that post- except it would have been 1979 for me. Reading The Scarlet Citadel changed my perspective somewhat. Reading this thread has changed it more.
Moria also strongly influenced my perception of dungeons. For the longest time, it seemed like the major inspiration for them in the game, since I never saw anything like them in other fiction, beyond, as some have mentioned, stuff like Orpheus in the udnerworld or the Hobbit. It wasn't until last year that I was able to finally get my hands on Sign of the Labrys (which I mentioned earlier, and which was one of the handful of books from the 1e DMG Appendix N that I hadn't read). I was immediately struck by just how similar the setting in that book was to the classic "Gygaxian" dungeon of early D&D. To me, that book had to have been a much more profound impact upon Gary when designing early modules and his own castle Greyhawk than Moria was. I'm wondering about what others who have read Sign of the Labrys think?
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;310130. I'm wondering about what others who have read Sign of the Labrys think?
I'm going to San Francisco next week, home of many great used book stores, I'll see if I can locate a copy.
While I can't speak to antecedents for dungeons in D&D, I do know that if dungeons weren't a big part of the game when I started playing in 1979, I doubt I would have taken to the game as enthusiastically as I did. The notion of exploring underground complexes full of monsters and treasures was pure gold to my 9-year-old imagination. My and my buddies didn't want to imitate fantasy books (at nine, we hadn't read many); we wanted to explore fantastic labyrinths.
As for realism in dungeons, I don't really need it. What I do like, however, is a good backstory and something more to the geography than shedloads of 20' x 30' rooms. Frankly, I never much liked Gygax's dungeons - many of them were simply underground barracks of humanoids. By the sixth of seventh room with 6 hobgoblins, a hobgoblins sargeant, and some sacks full of food and supplies, the dungeon has lost much of its magic. No, give me the Caverns of Thracia or Dark Tower anytime. They make sense from a timeline point of view, but they also have excellent variety in the layout and encounters.
On those occasions, few and far between, that I think about running or playing D&D again, it's because I like dungeons as a gaming environment.
I like mine logical, but the logic is based on the game-world, a place with lots of critters adapted to life undeground. My dungeons, like many old real-world structures, often start out as one thing and then are modified for use as something else, so it's possible to put together seemingly 'illogical' features that possess an internal coherence.
I think there are many real-world analogs to draw from for dungeons - the old mines under Paris come to mind. I've also adpated the dungeon exploring idea to other genres, such as space hulks and stations in Traveller.
I'm not wild about the "mythic underworld" approach to dungeons. I think it's very cool, but it's not something I personally would enjoy running so much.
And now, after typing this out, I'm going to end up thumbing through my 1e AD&D DMG tonight, maybe jot down a few notes in a notebook for the dungeon I will never actually design because fantasy just doesn't hold my attention very long.
Haffrung---
Caverns of Thracia remains the only outsource adventure that has every been used by my setting in the last 25 years. Good example. That one had a HUGE affect on my adventure design style.