Quote from: tenbones on February 28, 2024, 05:34:32 PM

I am no a big fan of the Supers Companion for only one reason: I run a very tight game of MSH and frankly it works a lot better for Supers the way I run them. However, SW Supers is a *superb* way of pushing the envelope of any other other SW games within the context of their own genres. You could easily leverage any/all of the Supers systems for your Fantasy game and make Exalted or drop it into your Savage Rifts game like you could do it with Heroes Unlimited.

It's the least useful Companion for me for purely ulterior reasons, but it's a welcome addition insofar as supplementary material for the SW toolkit.

I thought about this myself often enough, but in the long run I've just seen Savage Settings that seem like they should use the Superpower companion (Savage Rifts) but end up doing their own thing with the base system that turns out better (Again, Savage Rifts).

You yourself for example showed how to do World of Darkness Vampires with the Base system... You could easily build disciplines with Super Powers, but the base Savage Worlds Power system with some tweaking probably handles it better.

Quote from: GhostNinja on February 28, 2024, 05:07:06 PM
Not to derail the thread but people have talked about the fantasy companion and it lead me to the next question.....

How is the fantasy companion and how does it compare to Pathfinder.  For running a fantasy game using SW which is better.

I can speak GOBS towards this...

SW Pathfinder is a near perfect translation of Pathfinder into Savage Worlds. WARTS AND ALL.

Pathfinder is a perfect example as a flavor of D&D where things went really wrong with the mechanics of 3.x and meta-gameplay. Clerics = HEALBOT, Thieves = Janky Fighters whose whole schtick can be done better with spellcasters. Fighters = "Tanks... in name only." Boring progression, boring vertical gameplay. Casters = OWN ALL. Lets create yet more ways you can be an Arcane Caster and dominate.

MOST of these problems were not because of the narrative flavor of these classes, but because of the mechanics and role-protection that emerged from the mechanics that worked more and more on the battlemat-simulation-video-game-simulation-circle-jerk, which plagues low-end gaming to this day.

Because they're mechanical problems in nature, the translation of the direct mechanics are resolved simply by making them Savage Worlds mechanics. What *isn't* resolved is the emergent design conceits that Pathfinder decided to enforce mechanically by fiat. In this case the biggest problem is the Cleric Uber Healer issue. As well as the notion that letting PC's die is "bad gaming".

Savage Pathfinder, in their emulation of the original Paizo edition, retained some of these artifacts. This is largely because of the lack of mechanical rigor that Pathfinder applied to its own ruleset (regardless of what you think their reasoning was). Thankfully, because Savage Worlds is so modular *all* of the perceived issues I have are reasonably solvable.

The Differences
Savage Pathfinder is a self-contained system. It doesn't require the Savage Worlds Core Rules. The Core Rules are cooked into the Savage Worlds Pathfinder books. There are some setting rules baked in that are Pathfinder specific. But these can be rendered optional, like any Savage Worlds setting. The point is the Savage Worlds Pathfinder rules are *by design* aimed at emulating ALL of Pathfinder, lensed through Savage Worlds rules. It's not overtly trying to *fix* anything you perceive about 3.x d20, or even things you don't care about Pathfinder. But it gives you a very close idea what D&D fantasy could look like on the Savage Worlds Chassis.

Class Edges - Savage Worlds doesn't do classes because a "class" is just a package of abilities that "define" a role. But in emulating Pathfinder they leveraged the design mechanics they developed in Savage Rifts "Iconic Frameworks" to model Palladium's O.C.C's. <> D&D Classes. To this end, they build a package of abilities mechanically balanced them as Edges and cooked in some Hindrances to replicate a vertical progression of what a D&D Class would look like.

For example - if you were a regular spellcaster in Savage Worlds, you'd have the Arcane Background: Wizardry (or whatever). There are no inherent drawbacks to taking that Edge, other than your GM saying it's not available for whatever reason in their game. So this frees you up to progress as you and your GM sees fit. In Savage Pathfinder, when you take the Class Edge: Wizard, not only do you get the Pathfinder specific abilities of the Arcane Background: Wizard (which doesn't technically exist in Savage Pathfinder) but it has hindrances like, you can't wear armor. Among other such things. Each Class Edge has *specific* abilities open only to them that they can purchase as they gain Rank (there are no levels per se in SW).

Since much of the SW mechanics eschews things like "role-protection" - the implication of the Class Edges are simply there to give you that facsimile that people are used to having. It's is NOT mandatory you take a Class Edge (though you get one for free - you can choose to take a standard SW Profession or Background Edge instead.)

As I stated above - since the Class Edges reinforce "role-protection" - the Class Edges are powerful and disincentivize trying to recreate those Roles outside of the Class Edge system itself. Yes, you CAN do it, but some abilties they folded into the Class Edges are simply "too good" to pass up.

The Savage Worlds system itself solves a *lot* of the problems of Pathfinder (and d20 in general).

Linear Fighter/Quadratric Mage - NON ISSUE. Non-Caster's are as dangerous as Casters. Yes, Casters definitely have some advantages, but non-casters are badass.
Ascending/Descending AC - Savage Worlds uses Parry/Flat number 4 to determine how you hit. This means your skill in fighting is what matters, not the armor you wear. Armor absorbs damage, it doesn't make you harder to hit.
HP bloat - Savage Worlds gives you three Wounds. That's it. You mitigate damage by making yourself harder to hit, and raising your Toughness rating through gear, Edges, spells etc.

The Bestiary - The Savage Pathfinder book comes with a decent little bestiary in the back. Plus it has it's own dedicated Pathfinder Bestiary book which has pretty much everything you could want in a D&D game. Plus they give you guidelines on creating your own monsters.

The Savage World Fantasy Companion
So YES there is some overlap between the Fantasy Companion and Savage Worlds Pathfinder. But it's not as much as you'd imagine. The big differences is they made the Fantasy Companion with rules to encompass D&D fantasy in the various flavors it exists, plus with options to express different kinds of fantasy and how to do it with Setting Rules mechanics.

MOST of the Class Edge abilities found in Savage Pathfinder have been deconstructed down into discrete Edges in the Fantasy Companion. You could technically recreate most, if not all the Savage Pathfinder Classes organically.

They added alternative Arcane Backgrounds, Weapons, Gear, Races, Hindrances, Edges, more robust rules for traps, poisons, guidance on creating "classes" without making Class Edges. Options for magic - cantrips, more Trappings, more options for Domains, more rules for creating magic items, an expanded bestiary with very minor overlap (which they did intentionally - the FC bestiary is much more grounded in mythology and "standard D&D" type monsters.) Plus they give a nice cosmological overview on the Planes and samples of each Plane and what the mechanical conditions are for GM's to create their own content.

For ME - the FC is a great book, because I'm very DIY, and it bookends Savage Pathfinder. The more I GM it, the less need I have for Savage Pathfinder, to be honest. Savage Pathfinder is great for:

1) If you're wanting a self-contained Fantasy game and system that emulates Pathinder's flavor of D&D and it's setting.
2) People that want to get their feet wet in Savage Worlds rules, and don't want to spend a lot of time fiddling around.
3) If you're that person tired of the D&D rules, but you don't want to give up your D&D fantasy.


The Fantasy Companion is good for those GM's that like being hands on, and know what they want and how they want it. I can simulate any kind of fantasy sub-genre between the FC/Core Rules and anything else in my SW toolbox.

I like them both, but going forward, I'll use the Savage Worlds Pathfinder for their bestiary, gear and little else.

Edit: And damn you Orphan81 for beating me to the punch and saying the same thing in half the words...

Quote from: Orphan81 on February 28, 2024, 05:47:10 PM

Quote from: tenbones on February 28, 2024, 05:34:32 PM

I am no a big fan of the Supers Companion for only one reason: I run a very tight game of MSH and frankly it works a lot better for Supers the way I run them. However, SW Supers is a *superb* way of pushing the envelope of any other other SW games within the context of their own genres. You could easily leverage any/all of the Supers systems for your Fantasy game and make Exalted or drop it into your Savage Rifts game like you could do it with Heroes Unlimited.

It's the least useful Companion for me for purely ulterior reasons, but it's a welcome addition insofar as supplementary material for the SW toolkit.

I thought about this myself often enough, but in the long run I've just seen Savage Settings that seem like they should use the Superpower companion (Savage Rifts) but end up doing their own thing with the base system that turns out better (Again, Savage Rifts).

You yourself for example showed how to do World of Darkness Vampires with the Base system... You could easily build disciplines with Super Powers, but the base Savage Worlds Power system with some tweaking probably handles it better.

Yep. You're probably VERY right here. I'm just riffing on the WoD thing. But since you mentioned it... I do need to see what I can leverage out of that Supers Companion.

I have *nothing* against the Supers Companion when it comes to Supers. I'm just too invested in my MSH system to sell them on SW Supers. But it might happen one day.

Quote from: GhostNinja on February 28, 2024, 05:07:06 PM
Not to derail the thread but people have talked about the fantasy companion and it lead me to the next question.....

How is the fantasy companion and how does it compare to Pathfinder.  For running a fantasy game using SW which is better.

Tenbones and Orphan aren't wrong, but...

You're asking a question that doesn't really have an answer because the Fantasy Companion and Savage Pathfinder aren't actually different. Everything that was said about Pathfinder class edges is also true about the arcane backgrounds presented in the Fantasy Companion, it's just that Savage Pathfinder provides this option to regular physical combatants as well. In short, you have edges that come with prepackaged hindrances to make a meatier edge. Savage Pathfinder is a complete game, and Fantasy Companion is the how-to manual.

I have spent the past few days tinkering with a SWADE conversion of Dragonlance since DL1 is 40 years old this year. As I've been fiddling with the races, I've noticed that it's easier to just copy Savage Pathfinder and make small adjustments rather than reinvent the wheel. The Savage Pathfinder dwarf and elf are already pretty faithful representations of 1E AD&D, which isn't surprising because Pathfinder is just 3E, and the more I play around with Savage Worlds, the more I find it doesn't really matter what edition of D&D I'm looking at. All of those changes between editions that got people so outraged on internet forums mean fuck all nothing when you're converting to Savage Worlds.

Once you're done building your own fantasy game with the SWADE core book and the Fantasy Companion, there's a better-than-50% chance you end up with Savage Pathfinder.

Hard copies of SWADE and the Fantasy Companion are sold out, but vendors are likely to have a Savage Pathfinder boxed set. That's a type of "better", at least for the foreseeable future.

Quote from: GhostNinja on February 28, 2024, 05:07:06 PM
Not to derail the thread but people have talked about the fantasy companion and it lead me to the next question.....

How is the fantasy companion and how does it compare to Pathfinder.  For running a fantasy game using SW which is better.

  I have both.  I think the companion is better for running a fantasy game.   I think  if you have players that need a tight structure for advancing their characters SWPF might be better, but companion gives some good ideas as to how to emulate a "class" if players are looking for specialists.  IMO though its pretty easy to create a class with focus on edges anyway with no frame work in place. 

Quote from: Corolinth on February 29, 2024, 08:23:05 AM
Savage Pathfinder is a complete game, and Fantasy Companion is the how-to manual.

I have spent the past few days tinkering with a SWADE conversion of Dragonlance since DL1 is 40 years old this year. As I've been fiddling with the races, I've noticed that it's easier to just copy Savage Pathfinder and make small adjustments rather than reinvent the wheel. The Savage Pathfinder dwarf and elf are already pretty faithful representations of 1E AD&D, which isn't surprising because Pathfinder is just 3E, and the more I play around with Savage Worlds, the more I find it doesn't really matter what edition of D&D I'm looking at. All of those changes between editions that got people so outraged on internet forums mean fuck all nothing when you're converting to Savage Worlds.

Once you're done building your own fantasy game with the SWADE core book and the Fantasy Companion, there's a better-than-50% chance you end up with Savage Pathfinder.

Hard copies of SWADE and the Fantasy Companion are sold out, but vendors are likely to have a Savage Pathfinder boxed set. That's a type of "better", at least for the foreseeable future.

Yeah! The takeaway is that what *we* think of as D&D-Fantasy is subjective to a *point*. We agree there are Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, etc. we can agree on elements within the settings we like, even across editions. But we differ on how those elements are expressed. Those expressions are often tied directly to the mechanics we use. Once we're free our perceptions of those mechanics - like The Glass Wizards of 1e are not remotely the same as the Wizards of 5e.. then we naturally resynthesize what we actually WANT.

Savage Worlds gives you an easy way to do that. So sure, if your notions about D&D are out-of-the-box based on no specific edition and you're not trying to get deep into any particular setting, Savage Pathfinder will give you *exactly* that. The Fantasy Companion will let you tweak your D&D game into nearly any kind of Fantasy game you want, with the core assumption that it *is* Fantasy vs. other genres. Of course nothing prevents you from using those other Companion books to add those elements into your mix...

Sure I'd agree 50% of D&D games are well represented by Savage Pathfinder. But of course your mileage may vary. Pathfinder as a system and as a setting are mediocrity on parade. There are interesting bits in there, but the mechanics of Savage Worlds definitely elevates the play, and gives it much more scalability. And on that alone, makes it a better game option than most d20 options. Unless you're really a d20 system-wonk.

I read over the Horror Companion expecting... I'm not sure what I was expecting. Maybe something more Lovecraftian, given there was Lovecraft mythos stuff in the back.

I think what I got was more Buffy the Vampire Slayer. The TV show, not the movie.

The book feels like it's missing something. It needs more manly chin. Either a strapping young buck who lost his hand and replaced it with a chainsaw, or an elderly Elvis teaming up with JFK to defeat a mummy in their nursing home.

It read light. All the Companions do.

As long as they give me the tools, I add the Man-Chin.

Since this is winding all over the place about Savage Worlds... may as well point out I saw that on DTRPG there is a GM Sale.

You can get the Savage Worlds Core rules pdf for cheap.

https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/es/product/261539/savage-worlds-adventure-edition

All their Savage Pathfinder stuff, Savage Rifts, adventures and localized editions are up there too.