Quote from: Persimmon on January 12, 2024, 04:15:46 PM

Quote from: SHARK on January 12, 2024, 03:20:45 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 12, 2024, 10:53:26 AM

Quote from: SHARK on January 12, 2024, 10:35:14 AMI voted for ShadowDark. It is a fantastic game.

What's interesting and exceptional about ShadowDark?  I've read a number of the games listed, and all of them looked pretty good, but I have to admit I haven't seen any that immediately hit me with a "THIS is why people should play THIS retroclone rather than any of the others" reaction.

(Anybody who knows the answer to this for any of the other games listed is also invited to chime in, of course.)

Greetings!

Good Morning, my friend!

Well, I think that ShadowDark is fantastic, and awesome.

(1) Layout and Presentation: Easy to Read and USE. Everything is quick, simple, and brutal. Rules descriptions, easy and quick. Monster entries--again, easy, quick, and brutal. Spell descriorions and rules--easy, quick, and brutal.

(2) Artwork--The art is black and white, and very cool in showing the characters, creatures, and themes of the game.

(3) The game rules "Chassis" is simple, and stripped down. It is all very easy to read, understand, and use. This then, serves as a strong foundation that a GM can *add* any kind of thing or sub-system to the basic rules system, and the game still runs fine.

(4) ShadowDark has embraced some of the more modern game developments--like ascending AC, as well as several key elements from 5E, such as Advantage and Disadvantage.

(5) The above-mentioned element makes selling the game system to modern players that are familiar with 5E a snap, painless and effortless.

(6) No Fucking BS Woke politics are in the game.

(7) The entire basic game is all in ONE BOOK. Simple to read and use, for GM's and Players alike.

( Related to the above, is also an awesome feature--the author, Kelsey Dionne, has been inspired by half a dozen different systems and rules, in addition to AD&D and 5E. She has smoothly combined and polished these elements to make something special with ShadowDark.

These are all aspects of ShadowDark that I enjoy, which is why I think that the game is fantastic and awesome!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I have no feelings about the creator either way though it's nice to hear she keeps the real life BS out of the game. 
As for the game itself, to me it's just watered-down OSE with mechanics from other systems crammed into it.  And since there's not a single new mechanic from 5e that I like, that's another bunch of strikes against it for me. 

But it's all good; just really interested in seeing what people prefer and why.  So if you guys are enjoying it, game on.

Greetings!

Hey there, my friend! Indeed, I *LOVE* that there are no Woke politics in ShadowDark!

I don't play OSE, so for myself, what OSE does or doesn't do is ultimately meaningless. I always liked the 5E from the beginning--the later books and the Woke politics corrupted it entirely though, sadly. ShadowDark having ideas found in half a dozen other systems is great! It means that I don't need to buy six different game systems. *Laughing*

ShadowDark's *innovation*--and Kelsey's genius--has been to take a dozen ideas and subsystems, combine them together and integrate them under one book, and all done in a simple, quick, and polished manner.

Kelsey after all, cut her teeth on writing and creating modules for 5E, so it is entirely reasonable and understandable that she would want to develop a game book that is familiar with 5E players--which she has also blended with old school D&D concepts and standards. That love and passion for her is also understandable, as when she wasn't playing 5E, every year--and for many years now--she has attended Gary Con and other cons, playing AD&D with old grognards.

Good stuff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on January 12, 2024, 04:23:38 PM

Quote from: BadApple on January 12, 2024, 04:08:45 PM

Quote from: SHARK on January 12, 2024, 03:20:45 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 12, 2024, 10:53:26 AM

Quote from: SHARK on January 12, 2024, 10:35:14 AMI voted for ShadowDark. It is a fantastic game.

What's interesting and exceptional about ShadowDark?  I've read a number of the games listed, and all of them looked pretty good, but I have to admit I haven't seen any that immediately hit me with a "THIS is why people should play THIS retroclone rather than any of the others" reaction.

(Anybody who knows the answer to this for any of the other games listed is also invited to chime in, of course.)

Greetings!

Good Morning, my friend!

Well, I think that ShadowDark is fantastic, and awesome.

(1) Layout and Presentation: Easy to Read and USE. Everything is quick, simple, and brutal. Rules descriptions, easy and quick. Monster entries--again, easy, quick, and brutal. Spell descriorions and rules--easy, quick, and brutal.

(2) Artwork--The art is black and white, and very cool in showing the characters, creatures, and themes of the game.

(3) The game rules "Chassis" is simple, and stripped down. It is all very easy to read, understand, and use. This then, serves as a strong foundation that a GM can *add* any kind of thing or sub-system to the basic rules system, and the game still runs fine.

(4) ShadowDark has embraced some of the more modern game developments--like ascending AC, as well as several key elements from 5E, such as Advantage and Disadvantage.

(5) The above-mentioned element makes selling the game system to modern players that are familiar with 5E a snap, painless and effortless.

(6) No Fucking BS Woke politics are in the game.

(7) The entire basic game is all in ONE BOOK. Simple to read and use, for GM's and Players alike.

( Related to the above, is also an awesome feature--the author, Kelsey Dionne, has been inspired by half a dozen different systems and rules, in addition to AD&D and 5E. She has smoothly combined and polished these elements to make something special with ShadowDark.

These are all aspects of ShadowDark that I enjoy, which is why I think that the game is fantastic and awesome!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Does one need to convert the old D&D modules or can they be run as is?

Greetings!

I have not yet converted any old D&D modules for ShadowDark. I imagine using them though would be very easy.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

You do need to convert them, but there's a free conversion guide in the interwebs that seems fairly easy.

I love OSE Because:

1) No Politics- A great thing

2) Really easy to learn-   It's not like 5e that tries to have a rule for everything.  It feels like D&D used to

3) Quick character creation- While it can take a while to create a 5e character (Unless you are using character creation software), you can make an OSE character in under 5 minutes.

4) Deadly- While characters can die in 5e, it's nearly impossible for that to happen with all of the healing, short rests, long rests and potions.

5) Easy layout.  Everything is easy to find, it's easy to read.  It's just great.

6) Artwork- The artwork in OSE is very old school.

It's just D&D the way I remember it.   Sometimes the newest and latest aren't the best.   Gary Gygax and Co. knew how to design a easily playable game.

Voted Labyrinth Lord because that's the one I played the most...multiple campaigns over a five or six year period. I like C&C the best out of the rest, with S&W white box in third probably.

OSE isn't a clone; it's B/X, so I don't technically think it should be on this list. Basic Fantasy is the worst one, honestly. It's just so fucking pedestrian. Surprised Blueholme wasn't an option, that's an excellent Holmes clone.

OSE is my favorite.  B/X was my intro to D&D back in the 1980's, and its still a great game today. 

I have purchased Shadowdark, but I haven't played it yet, so I can't vote for it yet.  But it looks really good, and I plan on trying it out at my table real soon.

I voted for OSE, but I have a soft spot for White Box FMAG.

Quote from: Jam The MF on January 12, 2024, 06:05:40 PM
I voted for OSE, but I have a soft spot for White Box FMAG.

Weird poll...S&W Whitebox IS FMAG, but it also has an option for S&W (any version).

I would happily play any of the games on that list, but my favorite is Swords & Wizardry Complete.

1) The rules are very simple and therefor easy to learn, play, and modify.
2) By having both ascending and descending armor class baked into the game, I can play any published OSR adventure with essentially no conversions.
3) Because I started with OD&D and enjoy the history of its development, I like that the author includes little boxes of info about the more ambiguous rules and the various interpretations that different groups have used over the years.
4) In terms of features, options, and crunch, I think that D&D hit its zenith just before AD&D in 1978. That's what Swords & Wizardry Complete gives me, the perfect vintage.

Of course I still have a few pages of house-rules :-)

Quote from: BadApple on January 12, 2024, 04:08:45 PM
Does one need to convert the old D&D modules or can they be run as is?

Shadowdark has an odd XP system.  Its XP system seems to be the biggest obstacle in converting old D&D modules.  Honestly, the easiest and quickest way to convert old D&D modules to Shadowdark would be to replace Shadowdark's XP rules and use the D&D B/X rules for XP instead.  All PCs advance as a Basic D&D Fighter. 

Someone on the Shadowdark reddit group mentioned running Barrowmaze with Shadowdark rules, and instead of converting pages and pages of treasure to Shadowdark's XP system, it would be much easier to just change the XP rules.

Quote from: Persimmon on January 12, 2024, 02:41:55 PM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 12, 2024, 01:54:52 PM
Out of the ones listed, I'd probably run OSE, which is what I voted.  I can see being swayed to Swords & Wizardry or Basic Fantasy in the right circumstances.

However, expanding the list, I'd run either Rules Compendium or ACKS over any of those.  Dragonslayer would certainly be in the mix.  And realistically, I'll run my own thing over those.  So the chances of me ever getting around to running one on the list is fairly remote.

I don't buy the argument, despite the above, that the market is over-saturated. That's the argument of someone already in the field that wants to cut out competition or someone who wants everyone to settle down to writing adventures for [insert favorite system here] so that they can use those.  Or someone confusing other people training players for them versus growing the hobby.  It doesn't matter if the list was half the size, and it wouldn't matter if the list was twice as long.  They are all niche--in a good way.

Oops, I forgot about ACKS.  My bad there.  I considered Hyperborea, which I like a lot, but I considered it a bit too niche given how tied it is to the setting. 

And note that I'm just relaying what I saw on other boards regarding market saturation.  Personally I'm willing to check lots of things out to see if they suit me.  And my moods change so I'll usually be playing a couple different systems at any time.  Right now it's S&W and C&C.

Hyperborea is the only D&D retroclone I have a significant amount of time logged with. It's a pretty good game and either that or Lamentations of the Flame Princess would probably be my go-to D&D clone if I needed one. For what it's worth, I don't think Hyperborea is all that married to its setting. The magic is standard D&D stuff and all the classes would fit perfectly well into any generic fantasy setting. Yeah, you'd have to homebrew in elves, dwarfs etc., but that's really not hard to do.

I do think the retroclone market is pretty thoroughly saturated, not because of the quantity of games, but because of the similarities between them. Based on plenty of comments on this forum and elsewhere, there's not much reason to buy more retroclones once you've found one you like.  They are all very similar, and the differences seem to come down to preferences in minor rules, not to the different games producing meaningfully different game-feel or allowing you to run a different kind of campaign. I would be genuinely curious to hear how each of these games fulfills a distinct niche, because aside from a few broad distinctions (4-class vs. more classes, ascending vs. descending AC, etc.), it seems like the differences between them are minor things that only stand out to grognards who are very invested in the minutiae of old editions of D&D.

Quote from: Brad on January 12, 2024, 06:07:27 PM

Quote from: Jam The MF on January 12, 2024, 06:05:40 PM
I voted for OSE, but I have a soft spot for White Box FMAG.

Weird poll...S&W Whitebox IS FMAG, but it also has an option for S&W (any version).

Actually not quite.  FMAG is produced by someone else, based on the S&W White Box.  And OSE includes the advanced option which isn't really a clone, but a hybrid, like Advanced Labyrinth Lord.  Hence the word adjacent.  I didn't include stuff I haven't seen (like Blue Holme & LOTFP) and I just forgot about ACKS.  So yeah, not scientific, but interesting in terms of responses & preferences.

As far as preferences go, I'm adding house rules and bolting on stuff from other games no matter what I'm playing.  So my own choice (Castles & Crusades) came down to what I've got the fewest house rules for.  S&W and OSE are right behind it, at least for now.

Quote from: BadApple on January 12, 2024, 04:08:45 PM

Quote from: SHARK on January 12, 2024, 03:20:45 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 12, 2024, 10:53:26 AM

Quote from: SHARK on January 12, 2024, 10:35:14 AMI voted for ShadowDark. It is a fantastic game.

What's interesting and exceptional about ShadowDark?  I've read a number of the games listed, and all of them looked pretty good, but I have to admit I haven't seen any that immediately hit me with a "THIS is why people should play THIS retroclone rather than any of the others" reaction.

(Anybody who knows the answer to this for any of the other games listed is also invited to chime in, of course.)

Greetings!

Good Morning, my friend!

Well, I think that ShadowDark is fantastic, and awesome.

Does one need to convert the old D&D modules or can they be run as is?

Here's some simple Shadowdark monster conversion rules. 3 pages for both older D&D and 5E.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Lj25uFoVYYFJ20bayBIwRIXLzvzO33mx/view

I've seen a couple of different conversion guidlines for converting XP/Treasure. Divide by 100. Convert to silver and divide by 10. I've not done this work so I can't say which works better. I'm thinking of using Shadowdark for L1 The Secret of Bone Hill in the near future though.

Quote from: Persimmon on January 12, 2024, 10:23:42 PM
Actually not quite.  FMAG is produced by someone else, based on the S&W White Box.

I have the Brave Halfling version and five copies of FMAG...they look almost 100% identical to me, honestly. Can someone point out the differences if I'm just not seeing them?

Quote from: Brad on January 13, 2024, 11:22:47 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 12, 2024, 10:23:42 PM
Actually not quite.  FMAG is produced by someone else, based on the S&W White Box.

I have the Brave Halfling version and five copies of FMAG...they look almost 100% identical to me, honestly. Can someone point out the differences if I'm just not seeing them?

It's mainly just editing, I believe?