Quote from: tenbones on September 08, 2021, 10:49:41 AM

Quote from: jhkim on September 07, 2021, 06:05:07 PM
Saying "the SJW agenda" is too vague to define. Some people here have accused me of being an SJW at times. I don't agree with any of hedgehobbit's list - but they sound more like parody or hyperbole to me.

For the *years* you have been discussing these issues on this very forum, for you to pretend that "the SJW Agenda" is *vague* paints you as being pretty obtuse don't you think?

I've already stated the litmus test for hedgehobbit's list: Go post something contrary to any of these on the other RPG forums and watch what happens. How hyperbolic is it? Or are you just being ignorant for the purposes of bad-faith discourse? This is why people have accused you of being an SJW, since the level of cognitive dissonance required to make such a statement is kinda ridiculous, which is a very prominent... no... *mandatory* trait to be an SJW.

Quote from: tenbones on September 08, 2021, 10:49:41 AM
What is hyperbolic about these claims? They're not necessarily specific, but hyperbolic? Not at all. Again - go to any place where the SJW's gather and post any of those claims and you'll get mobbed. Do it rather than pretend we're just wrong, or being hyperbolic.

I've actively talked to and gamed with people called SJWs for ages - in person, on Facebook, and in other places. I will go ahead and post in another forum as you say, but I'm pretty sure what the results will be. I still think that hedgehobbit's list is hyperbole or parody. For example, I'd guess roughly 5 to 10% of my NPCs are gay. According to hedgehobbit, this means that all 5E players will consider me homophobic because that is much less than 50%. I don't find that to be the case in my experience.

I feel like this is completely obvious, but you're insisting that it's not at all hyperbole.

Quote from: jhkim on September 08, 2021, 02:07:28 PM
For example, I'd guess roughly 5 to 10% of my NPCs are gay. .

I've always been pro gay rights myself. At the same time, I don't ever have gay npcs per se. Sure, there are gay folks in the world, but I find it far easier just to keep everything hetero. Personally, Ive no interest in ticking boxes (not saying that you are of course man, but just for the wokies). I just don't go in for that whole, 'you must be diverse' thing. I've no real interest in it... I like to play the boring old shit I've been playing and it's also easier and familiar. I'm not going to do any extra work for anyone. I'm also pretty lazy (unless I'm getting paid).

But if a PC wanted to be gay, and then seek out gay npcs to interact with, that's fine by me. But I'm not going to do it, just because some woke ephemeral force says we should. I'll do it for the sake of the player but not the game (or the hobby as a whole). If I want to make the world better I'll use my left-wing vote in the real world.

Quote from: jhkim on September 08, 2021, 02:07:28 PM
...

I've actively talked to and gamed with people called SJWs for ages - in person, on Facebook, and in other places. I will go ahead and post in another forum as you say, but I'm pretty sure what the results will be. I still think that hedgehobbit's list is hyperbole or parody. For example, I'd guess roughly 5 to 10% of my NPCs are gay. According to hedgehobbit, this means that all 5E players will consider me homophobic because that is much less than 50%. I don't find that to be the case in my experience.

I feel like this is completely obvious, but you're insisting that it's not at all hyperbole.

I get the impression that you don't like talking in broad generalities, which is why I think that you bounce off a lot of these discussions.

What I don't think that you are getting here is this:

It doesn't matter that hedgehobbit's list is a bit hyperbolic, or that you think it is absurd.

It is close enough to the mark that you will still get backlash for saying that it is all nonsense on certain forums.



Go to ENWorld and RPG.net and Post something similar to:

Quote from: jhkim takes the dare? - Props to him if he does!  on September 08, 2021, 02:07:28 PM
"I was told on another forum that 5e players actually believe this nonsense.

This is pure hyperbole, no way 5e players have actually accepted these absurdities:

-Only an Asian player should be allowed to play an Asian character.
-Orcs are black people, so if your orcs are evil you think black people are evil
-If your dark elves have black skin, you think black people are evil.
-If you have slavery in your game, you support slavery
-If 50% of your NPCs aren't female, you are a sexist
-if 50% of your NPCs aren't gay, you are a homophobe

I don't see how on either forum, a minimum of a thread lock will not be forthcoming. Which will be sufficient to prove our point.

And when the pile on starts before the mods lock the thread - Don't be wishy washy in your replies to the backlash or try any nuanced "I see where you are coming from" replies: Treat each item on the list with the same distain you do here.

Good Luck.

Quote from: Jaeger on September 08, 2021, 02:40:05 PM
What I don't think that you are getting here is this:

It doesn't matter that hedgehobbit's list is a bit hyperbolic, or that you think it is absurd.

It is close enough to the mark that you will still get backlash for saying that it is all nonsense on certain forums.

It sounds like you're saying that hedgehobbit's list is not true and is hyperbolic just like I said. But now you're trying to say that the intent is some other point.

I prefer to say what I actually think. If something is hyperbolic, I'll call it hyperbolic. If someone wants to know what I think, I'll say what I actually think.

That will still be true when I go to another forum. Regardless of the specific claims -- if someone comes into a gaming forum declaring "X Y and Z political opinions are nonsense" -- then they're going to be taken as somebody with a chip on their shoulder looking for a fight. I'd go in there and discuss games and give my actual opinions when they're relevant.

Quote from: jhkim on September 08, 2021, 06:57:39 PM
...
I prefer to say what I actually think. If something is hyperbolic, I'll call it hyperbolic. If someone wants to know what I think, I'll say what I actually think.

Ahh, the way you reply is much clearer now.

Something infused with a bit of hyperbole does not mean that it is not generally correct.

I have seen SJW's on different forums advocate for each of hedgehobbit's points at one time or another. And if there starts to be the slightest blowback you see threads locked and posters banned for being non-inclusive for disagreeing with them.

Hedgehobbit just puts them all on a single list.

Has he taken the most absurd stances? Sure.

But that is the point: Even the most absurd stances get a pass. You will be subject to locked threads and outright bans if you try to pushback against them.

Quote from: jhkim on September 08, 2021, 06:57:39 PM
That will still be true when I go to another forum. Regardless of the specific claims -- if someone comes into a gaming forum declaring "X Y and Z political opinions are nonsense" -- then they're going to be taken as somebody with a chip on their shoulder looking for a fight.

The difference is that if you do that here: The debate will be allowed to go on.

If you do it on other forums: You will be silenced just for having the wrong opinions...

Quote from: Jaeger on September 08, 2021, 07:51:49 PM
I have seen SJW's on different forums advocate for each of hedgehobbit's points at one time or another. And if there starts to be the slightest blowback you see threads locked and posters banned for being non-inclusive for disagreeing with them.

Hedgehobbit just puts them all on a single list.

Has he taken the most absurd stances? Sure.

But that is the point: Even the most absurd stances get a pass. You will be subject to locked threads and outright bans if you try to pushback against them.

But the original topic wasn't about how Internet boards get moderated -- it was about D&D players playing D&D. hedgehobbit claimed that 5E players believed all of the points on his list. That's not true. It's hyperbole. I'll buy that there's someone somewhere who may believe each of those points, but it is not universal or even typical of 5E players.

Likewise, when Pundit claims that the combat wheelchair is official D&D and that it's in Candlekeep Mysteries -- that's also not true.

I'm not saying that no one should ever use hyperbole. I've used it millions of times. But if asked, I'm willing to admit it and am capable of talking about actual reality.

" hedgehobbit claimed that 5E players believed all of the points on his list. That's not true. "

The problem with this tack is that literalism and pedantry aren't much of a convincing rebuttal of anything.

When I say "you always interrupt me" and someone else says " he doesn't always interrupt you" it does very little to blunt the idea being conveyed that the party in question interrupts quite a lot and more than the first party appreciates. People are having a spirited discussion with a bit of tension, they are not composing technical writing by committee or presenting a forensic case for peer review. This is a bit like a detective Columbo imitator pouncing on trivial irrelevant inconsistencies instead of finding an important relevant contradiction that would actually invalidate anything important.

I can't wait to play D&D 5E as Aragorn, charging the black gates of Mordor in his combat wheelchair of diversity and representation!!!  The wheelchair gives him a +19 to all Diversity Checks.  That's right, a guaranteed 20 every time!!!  This is so awesome, and diverse!!!

Quote from: Jam The MF on September 09, 2021, 02:34:54 PM
I can't wait to play D&D 5E as Aragorn, charging the black gates of Mordor in his combat wheelchair of diversity and representation!!!  The wheelchair gives him a +19 to all Diversity Checks.  That's right, a guaranteed 20 every time!!!  This is so awesome, and diverse!!!

I will follow you, masked and SEVEN FEET behind you (because 7 is more than 6), as Gimli, the OSHA inspector, rapidly writing fines for all non-ADA accessible areas, as well as for all violation of local Covid Mandates. Together, we will bankrupt Mordor!

You have my (constantly sanitized) axe!

Quote from: jhkim on September 08, 2021, 02:07:28 PM
I've actively talked to and gamed with people called SJWs for ages - in person, on Facebook, and in other places. I will go ahead and post in another forum as you say, but I'm pretty sure what the results will be. I still think that hedgehobbit's list is hyperbole or parody. For example, I'd guess roughly 5 to 10% of my NPCs are gay. According to hedgehobbit, this means that all 5E players will consider me homophobic because that is much less than 50%. I don't find that to be the case in my experience.

I feel like this is completely obvious, but you're insisting that it's not at all hyperbole.

Then you do not understand the agenda. You're talking about people at your table. We're talking about the people setting the agenda FOR THE PEOPLE AT YOUR TABLE, which may or may not include you.

It's completely performative. What you keep in your head is meaningless to WotC/Paizo/Green Ronin/TBP and the rest of the SJW's pushing their agenda into the gaming-sphere. They *assume* you're following the agenda, clearly because you're not saying or doing anything against it, and you're rightfully consuming their products, and engaging in their spaces by their rules etc.

The moment you say, or perform an act of sedition like "I'm running a game set in jungle where the PC's are part of a colonial settlement that uses slave labor comprised of kobolds and goblins they've captured locally and I'd like some advice on treating them humanely and generating game-content out of this... " the usual fireworks will fly.

The agenda is engineer everyone's reactions into silence and complicity. If you feel enough heat, you will not have undesireable content (as delineated by them) in your game. And it *may* not work on you - that's okay for them too - they'll just poison the well for future players.

And they'll do it by filling the game with silly representational shit like Combat Wheelchairs, and non-contextual LGBT characters, polemics in their books about How to Play, Consent Forms, and the usual thousands of papercuts made from the Gate of Corralling they've erected around their flock.

Don't know if you noticed... it's a popular topic around forums nearly impossible to talk about gaming without the politics poisoning the industry to be brought up.

I was a member of of TBP from late 2001ish. I was a solid decade and half in watching all the insanity of the mods deepen. I was banned when they accused Paizo of being racist (because of how they treated Orcs in their game) and as a former freelancer for Paizo - I came to their defense because you know... Orcs aren't real etc. etc.

I was Permabanned for answering a question from a user that asked "I'm running an authentic WWII game. Is it okay for me to let my players use the term 'Jap'?"

My response was: Do whatever you want at your table.

Then suddenly everyone dogpiled me about being a racist. That I'm spreading racism. That not all white people called Japanese people 'Japs' back then, and of course the mob grew and grew...

My counter responses were: I'm part Japanese, I rather love my Asian side, I'm hardly racist (but that's a meaningless term by today's standards). And I posted the newspoll in the NYT circa WWII, where 60% of Americans (according to the poll) believed Japanese should be rounded up and executed. So, no, not all Americans probably used the term "Jap". But in the interest of having an 'Authentic WWII campaign' it's probably not an issue for the use of that language at your table if everyone is game.

Permabanned.

It's so common there at the TBP - and I know fully well that sentiment of oversensitivity is now practically religious in most corners of the TTRPG Publishing sphere, that calling it "hyperbole" in that there isn't an SJW Agenda seems far more hyperbolic in reality.

Quote from: Jam The MF on September 09, 2021, 02:34:54 PM
I can't wait to play D&D 5E as Aragorn, charging the black gates of Mordor in his combat wheelchair of diversity and representation!!!  The wheelchair gives him a +19 to all Diversity Checks.  That's right, a guaranteed 20 every time!!!  This is so awesome, and diverse!!!

Black gates? Do you even hear yourself? This is supposed to be fantasy not the Turner Diaries. Mordor is a diverse multiethnic developing nation that has their own culture and religion despite the best efforts of Gondor to wipe that out.  Stop pandering to the colonialism and genocide porn crowd. Has the Palantir taught you nothing? Gandalfianism is unacceptable. DO BETTER!

Quote from: palaeomerus on September 09, 2021, 04:01:27 AM

Quote from: jhkim on September 09, 2021, 03:43:29 AM
hedgehobbit claimed that 5E players believed all of the points on his list. That's not true.

The problem with this tack is that literalism and pedantry aren't much of a convincing rebuttal of anything.

Fair enough. But the problem is, I don't even know what I'm rebutting here, or to what extent I disagree.

I don't use Sara Thompson's combat wheelchair writeup, nor does any 5E player I know. As I said, I don't think I ever would have heard of it if not for the noise here. It apparently has gotten a round of mentions on some Twitter feeds and on some blogs, but I don't read any of those.

Still, even though I don't use it, I don't have any problem with it existing. I think people here disagree and have a problem with it existing -- but I can't tell where we disagree because of the hyperbole. I don't object to disabled PCs in general. I've had a number of those in my games, especially from using game systems with disadvantages like Hero System and GURPS.

Quote from: tenbones on September 09, 2021, 03:36:38 PM
What you keep in your head is meaningless to WotC/Paizo/Green Ronin/TBP and the rest of the SJW's pushing their agenda into the gaming-sphere. They *assume* you're following the agenda, clearly because you're not saying or doing anything against it, and you're rightfully consuming their products, and engaging in their spaces by their rules etc.

From my view,

1) I don't think RPGs have significant power as activism. They are too active a medium. Overtly liberal RPG material will mostly sell to other liberals, and is thus preaching to the converted. The same for conservative games. I think television and especially children's media can have a big cultural effect, but RPGs don't seem like something to fight over.

2) Even if I did want to fight, my politics broadly are aligned with other liberals - even if we differ on specific issues. I've had some deep discussions with several of the people who now write for Wizards and Green Ronin, and they didn't seem to have a problem with my positions.

Quote from: tenbones on September 09, 2021, 03:36:38 PM
Don't know if you noticed... it's a popular topic around forums nearly impossible to talk about gaming without the politics poisoning the industry to be brought up.

Well, yeah. Since this is my main gaming forum, I notice how politics has totally polluted the gaming discussion here on this forum.

Quote from: jhkim on September 09, 2021, 04:24:19 PM
From my view,

1) I don't think RPGs have significant power as activism. They are too active a medium. Overtly liberal RPG material will mostly sell to other liberals, and is thus preaching to the converted. The same for conservative games. I think television and especially children's media can have a big cultural effect, but RPGs don't seem like something to fight over.

Well given we're talking about the primary gaming companies pushing the agenda - the ones with populations of gamers that spans generations suddenly finding a singular agenda which has been inserted into their content. Preaching to the converted at the expense of the non-converted flies in the face that it's not the proper place to have the sermon being given in the first place. This is the guy talking about the Bible at the party while everyone is trying to have fun, they're handing out pamphlets damning many of those at the gathering and running people off.

Comparing TTRPGs to culture writ-large is a dodge. We are the ones in that arena talking about what is happening in the arena. The degree to which it impacts culture is only relevant to US. The agenda is to follow the larger establishment line - and here it is at our respective doorstep. But I'll indulge you below if you really think this...

Quote from: jhkim on September 09, 2021, 04:24:19 PM2) Even if I did want to fight, my politics broadly are aligned with other liberals - even if we differ on specific issues. I've had some deep discussions with several of the people who now write for Wizards and Green Ronin, and they didn't seem to have a problem with my positions.

They are not liberal. And without specificity I don't know what this means. I used to write for Paizo as a feature writer - I'm familiar with most of the folks there. I've seen many of them say shit in modern times that I'd *never* have imagined them saying when I was writing for them. People change. I haven't - they most certainly have.

What that says about your views on "liberalism" is meaningless without context. I generally hold that I can sit and have a beer with anyone, and talk about politics, religion, sex, and anything else without much concern about causing a ruckus. But these days... I'm not confident that's true. Again the proverbial Devil is in the details.

The question is - do you think *any* of these political insertions from the publishing teams are *necessary*? It goes both ways to your argument about "I don't think RPGs have significant power as activism" - if you believe that, why do you think they push it?

And I have no idea what a "conservative" RPG is.

Quote from: jhkim on September 09, 2021, 04:24:19 PMWell, yeah. Since this is my main gaming forum, I notice how politics has totally polluted the gaming discussion here on this forum.

And why do you think that is? Do you not recognize how many of the people here are refugees from many of the other sites for simply speaking of things we speak of here? It's because of the politics pushed on those forums which have infiltrated the TTRPG companies that this place exists in the first place. Are we not The Hate-Filled Cesspool to them? Why do you think that is? And do you think it's true?

And is that "Liberal" thinking?

Quote from: tenbones on September 09, 2021, 05:42:56 PM
Preaching to the converted at the expense of the non-converted flies in the face that it's not the proper place to have the sermon being given in the first place. This is the guy talking about the Bible at the party while everyone is trying to have fun, they're handing out pamphlets damning many of those at the gathering and running people off.

If people want to play an explicitly Christian RPG like Dragonraid, that may be their idea of having fun. I have fun at my church parties - they're nice people and I enjoy discussion with them (though as UU's we're not very Bible-thumping).

As far as chasing people off, D&D is more popular now than it ever was as far as I can see. There are some people who are turned off by it, but that's as it have always been. Fundamentally, I think there should be games of all different sorts that appeal to different people. There can be both a Tales of Gor RPG and a Thirsty Sword Lesbians RPG, and different people will play them.

Quote from: tenbones on September 09, 2021, 05:42:56 PM
The question is - do you think *any* of these political insertions from the publishing teams are *necessary*? It goes both ways to your argument about "I don't think RPGs have significant power as activism" - if you believe that, why do you think they push it?

1) Nothing is *necessary* in RPGs. People put into their RPG designs stuff that they like. It's not necessary to have gay characters, or elves, or humans, or straight characters in an RPG. Some designers may insert straight characters into their games, but that's not necessary. It's their choice, which they're welcome to do.

2) Some people believe that RPGs do have significant power to sway people's politics. I don't agree with them, but that doesn't stop them from trying.