Well said Rob.

The inversion of the "Satanic Panic" to the "White-CIS-Hetero-Patriarchy Panic" is not only brands SJW's as hypocrites, it shows what anti-social nerds given some power does. And these are not people outside our hobby as it was in the 80's. Back then we were all in the same boat knowing fully well the moralizers were wrong, and we battened down the hatches and soldiered on.

Some didn't make it - and they left hobby for various reasons.

But since the SJW Cult subsumed by fiat everyone that isn't an "ally" and took their queues from the Marxists further afield in the culture and started applying it in our hobby - unlike in the 80's where the detractors were external to our hobby, now they were inside the hobby. And the Alinsky tactics served them well, and those turds floated to the top.

Imagine if Hasbro was purchased by the Catholic Church and they started proseltyzing their faith in the D&D brand. Breadcrumbing the Sacraments, pre-game session prayers to St. Gygax (His miracle of course that earned him sainthood was rolling 7 natural-20's in a row), then public skorning of non-believers, after session sin-shaming for whatever "bad things" your PC's did, and then the GM Confessional etc. etc.

Yeah I don't want that ideology inserted into my gaming products either unless it's a game specifically about that.

This is what makes it so insidious. The anti-historical and antisocial understanding that cultures are self-defining - "western culture" is what created all this. This pathological need to nurse ones victim-status as clout is gross. What's grosser is the people that play along with it as if it's okay.

Only a loser needs "representation" in a medium to feel validated. No game yet in nearly 50+ years of gaming (jesus...) or even in popular fiction outside of Starship Troopers has come close to representing me (Johnny Rico, you badass na nanay/i]). The fact that these losers currently are pushing their issues on the rest of us is the problem. I don't *need* to be invested in your problems and issues (to SJWs) and I don't want to game around them because well adjusted people can do that on the fly at their table.

@jhkim - One of your claims on this side-thread about believing TTRPG's don't have much impact on culture. Do you feel just because you stand with the SJW's (whether you claim to be one or not is irrelevant) that it's okay in terms of what they're doing to gaming writ large? Because the Satanic Panic people were minorities too relative to the rest of us - and they felt that same righteousness SJW's are claiming. Is it the message you approve of at the expense of us, or methods? Or both?

And further in light of your past with the Satanic Panic, does the passive participation in the current Cult Orthodoxy give you any pause?

Quote from: tenbones on September 11, 2021, 03:37:23 PM
Well said Rob.

The inversion of the "Satanic Panic" to the "White-CIS-Hetero-Patriarchy Panic" is not only brands SJW's as hypocrites, it shows what anti-social nerds given some power does. And these are not people outside our hobby as it was in the 80's. Back then we were all in the same boat knowing fully well the moralizers were wrong, and we battened down the hatches and soldiered on.

Some didn't make it - and they left hobby for various reasons.

But since the SJW Cult subsumed by fiat everyone that isn't an "ally" and took their queues from the Marxists further afield in the culture and started applying it in our hobby - unlike in the 80's where the detractors were external to our hobby, now they were inside the hobby. And the Alinsky tactics served them well, and those turds floated to the top.

Imagine if Hasbro was purchased by the Catholic Church and they started proseltyzing their faith in the D&D brand. Breadcrumbing the Sacraments, pre-game session prayers to St. Gygax (His miracle of course that earned him sainthood was rolling 7 natural-20's in a row), then public skorning of non-believers, after session sin-shaming for whatever "bad things" your PC's did, and then the GM Confessional etc. etc.

Yeah I don't want that ideology inserted into my gaming products either unless it's a game specifically about that.

This is what makes it so insidious. The anti-historical and antisocial understanding that cultures are self-defining - "western culture" is what created all this. This pathological need to nurse ones victim-status as clout is gross. What's grosser is the people that play along with it as if it's okay.

Only a loser needs "representation" in a medium to feel validated. No game yet in nearly 50+ years of gaming (jesus...) or even in popular fiction outside of Starship Troopers has come close to representing me (Johnny Rico, you badass na nanay/i]). The fact that these losers currently are pushing their issues on the rest of us is the problem. I don't *need* to be invested in your problems and issues (to SJWs) and I don't want to game around them because well adjusted people can do that on the fly at their table.

@jhkim - One of your claims on this side-thread about believing TTRPG's don't have much impact on culture. Do you feel just because you stand with the SJW's (whether you claim to be one or not is irrelevant) that it's okay in terms of what they're doing to gaming writ large? Because the Satanic Panic people were minorities too relative to the rest of us - and they felt that same righteousness SJW's are claiming. Is it the message you approve of at the expense of us, or methods? Or both?

And further in light of your past with the Satanic Panic, does the passive participation in the current Cult Orthodoxy give you any pause?

My one disagreement with the above is the notion that the Satanic Panic was in some way conservative.

Tipper Gore led the "moral majority" and every member of the panic pushers I've ever met was what today is called a "Karen"; a holier-than-thou moral busybody who over the years championed whichever cause earned them the most virtue points.

[side-bar: my Catholic priest actually stood up for one of my friends that I played D&D with against his Satanic Panic mother. The conservatives around here never cared about D&D; my mom liked that it fostered reading and math in a format kids would actually read.].

These leeches used religion (still quite a strong influence at the time) as a vehicle because points could be earned by excoriating others for perceived sins (while ignoring their own), but these days it's the SJW/Woke that offers the best vehicle for scoring virtue points for not adhering to the virtues of the Left.

It's the same crew of screeching harridans; literally in some cases (my friend's mom; now in her 70's; who was full blown in the Satanic Panic still goes to my Church, but has since gone full Woke and constantly complains about its refusal to allow gay "marriage", women priests, the need to more flexible about abortion, etc.). It's the same holier-than-thou mindset; building themselves up by tearing others down; just now firmly ensconced in the secular religion of Woke.

Quote from: Chris24601 on September 11, 2021, 04:51:11 PM

Quote from: tenbones on September 11, 2021, 03:37:23 PM
Well said Rob.

The inversion of the "Satanic Panic" to the "White-CIS-Hetero-Patriarchy Panic" is not only brands SJW's as hypocrites, it shows what anti-social nerds given some power does. And these are not people outside our hobby as it was in the 80's. Back then we were all in the same boat knowing fully well the moralizers were wrong, and we battened down the hatches and soldiered on.

Some didn't make it - and they left hobby for various reasons.

But since the SJW Cult subsumed by fiat everyone that isn't an "ally" and took their queues from the Marxists further afield in the culture and started applying it in our hobby - unlike in the 80's where the detractors were external to our hobby, now they were inside the hobby. And the Alinsky tactics served them well, and those turds floated to the top.

Imagine if Hasbro was purchased by the Catholic Church and they started proseltyzing their faith in the D&D brand. Breadcrumbing the Sacraments, pre-game session prayers to St. Gygax (His miracle of course that earned him sainthood was rolling 7 natural-20's in a row), then public skorning of non-believers, after session sin-shaming for whatever "bad things" your PC's did, and then the GM Confessional etc. etc.

Yeah I don't want that ideology inserted into my gaming products either unless it's a game specifically about that.

This is what makes it so insidious. The anti-historical and antisocial understanding that cultures are self-defining - "western culture" is what created all this. This pathological need to nurse ones victim-status as clout is gross. What's grosser is the people that play along with it as if it's okay.

Only a loser needs "representation" in a medium to feel validated. No game yet in nearly 50+ years of gaming (jesus...) or even in popular fiction outside of Starship Troopers has come close to representing me (Johnny Rico, you badass na nanay/i]). The fact that these losers currently are pushing their issues on the rest of us is the problem. I don't *need* to be invested in your problems and issues (to SJWs) and I don't want to game around them because well adjusted people can do that on the fly at their table.

@jhkim - One of your claims on this side-thread about believing TTRPG's don't have much impact on culture. Do you feel just because you stand with the SJW's (whether you claim to be one or not is irrelevant) that it's okay in terms of what they're doing to gaming writ large? Because the Satanic Panic people were minorities too relative to the rest of us - and they felt that same righteousness SJW's are claiming. Is it the message you approve of at the expense of us, or methods? Or both?

And further in light of your past with the Satanic Panic, does the passive participation in the current Cult Orthodoxy give you any pause?

My one disagreement with the above is the notion that the Satanic Panic was in some way conservative.

Tipper Gore led the "moral majority" and every member of the panic pushers I've ever met was what today is called a "Karen"; a holier-than-thou moral busybody who over the years championed whichever cause earned them the most virtue points.

[side-bar: my Catholic priest actually stood up for one of my friends that I played D&D with against his Satanic Panic mother. The conservatives around here never cared about D&D; my mom liked that it fostered reading and math in a format kids would actually read.].

These leeches used religion (still quite a strong influence at the time) as a vehicle because points could be earned by excoriating others for perceived sins (while ignoring their own), but these days it's the SJW/Woke that offers the best vehicle for scoring virtue points for not adhering to the virtues of the Left.

It's the same crew of screeching harridans; literally in some cases (my friend's mom; now in her 70's; who was full blown in the Satanic Panic still goes to my Church, but has since gone full Woke and constantly complains about its refusal to allow gay "marriage", women priests, the need to more flexible about abortion, etc.). It's the same holier-than-thou mindset; building themselves up by tearing others down; just now firmly ensconced in the secular religion of Woke.

Yes, Tipper Gore was a Democrat, but if you don't remember how balls deep the religious right was in the Satanic Panic of the '80s, then either you weren't there, or you were on better drugs than I was. And my drugs were pretty damn good.

Quote from: Tubesock Army on September 11, 2021, 05:47:33 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on September 11, 2021, 04:51:11 PM

Quote from: tenbones on September 11, 2021, 03:37:23 PM
Well said Rob.

The inversion of the "Satanic Panic" to the "White-CIS-Hetero-Patriarchy Panic" is not only brands SJW's as hypocrites, it shows what anti-social nerds given some power does. And these are not people outside our hobby as it was in the 80's. Back then we were all in the same boat knowing fully well the moralizers were wrong, and we battened down the hatches and soldiered on.

Some didn't make it - and they left hobby for various reasons.

But since the SJW Cult subsumed by fiat everyone that isn't an "ally" and took their queues from the Marxists further afield in the culture and started applying it in our hobby - unlike in the 80's where the detractors were external to our hobby, now they were inside the hobby. And the Alinsky tactics served them well, and those turds floated to the top.

Imagine if Hasbro was purchased by the Catholic Church and they started proseltyzing their faith in the D&D brand. Breadcrumbing the Sacraments, pre-game session prayers to St. Gygax (His miracle of course that earned him sainthood was rolling 7 natural-20's in a row), then public skorning of non-believers, after session sin-shaming for whatever "bad things" your PC's did, and then the GM Confessional etc. etc.

Yeah I don't want that ideology inserted into my gaming products either unless it's a game specifically about that.

This is what makes it so insidious. The anti-historical and antisocial understanding that cultures are self-defining - "western culture" is what created all this. This pathological need to nurse ones victim-status as clout is gross. What's grosser is the people that play along with it as if it's okay.

Only a loser needs "representation" in a medium to feel validated. No game yet in nearly 50+ years of gaming (jesus...) or even in popular fiction outside of Starship Troopers has come close to representing me (Johnny Rico, you badass na nanay/i]). The fact that these losers currently are pushing their issues on the rest of us is the problem. I don't *need* to be invested in your problems and issues (to SJWs) and I don't want to game around them because well adjusted people can do that on the fly at their table.

@jhkim - One of your claims on this side-thread about believing TTRPG's don't have much impact on culture. Do you feel just because you stand with the SJW's (whether you claim to be one or not is irrelevant) that it's okay in terms of what they're doing to gaming writ large? Because the Satanic Panic people were minorities too relative to the rest of us - and they felt that same righteousness SJW's are claiming. Is it the message you approve of at the expense of us, or methods? Or both?

And further in light of your past with the Satanic Panic, does the passive participation in the current Cult Orthodoxy give you any pause?

My one disagreement with the above is the notion that the Satanic Panic was in some way conservative.

Tipper Gore led the "moral majority" and every member of the panic pushers I've ever met was what today is called a "Karen"; a holier-than-thou moral busybody who over the years championed whichever cause earned them the most virtue points.

[side-bar: my Catholic priest actually stood up for one of my friends that I played D&D with against his Satanic Panic mother. The conservatives around here never cared about D&D; my mom liked that it fostered reading and math in a format kids would actually read.].

These leeches used religion (still quite a strong influence at the time) as a vehicle because points could be earned by excoriating others for perceived sins (while ignoring their own), but these days it's the SJW/Woke that offers the best vehicle for scoring virtue points for not adhering to the virtues of the Left.

It's the same crew of screeching harridans; literally in some cases (my friend's mom; now in her 70's; who was full blown in the Satanic Panic still goes to my Church, but has since gone full Woke and constantly complains about its refusal to allow gay "marriage", women priests, the need to more flexible about abortion, etc.). It's the same holier-than-thou mindset; building themselves up by tearing others down; just now firmly ensconced in the secular religion of Woke.

Yes, Tipper Gore was a Democrat, but if you don't remember how balls deep the religious right was in the Satanic Panic of the '80s, then either you weren't there, or you were on better drugs than I was. And my drugs were pretty damn good.

Yes, Tubesock Army. We know that you have to be medicated. No shush and let the adults talk.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on September 11, 2021, 11:05:22 AM
I'm not denying that there was no bias per se. But around those times in the 80s, homosexuality was something that was swept under the carpet, and not really talked about. It also wasn't really a big part of the collective consciousness either though, and some when it came to media in general.

So while I accept that there was 'some' bias back then, I also think that it's something that 'most' heterosexuals weren't interested in either. I mean, most of the creators were hetero, so why even think about the other side? I certainly didn't, I just wanted to play games and have fun. That bias, that is bandied about today by the woke scolds as 'deliberate homophobia' is disingenuous in my opinion.

I just want to play games and have fun too. I'm straight, and I've had fun by having a variety of characters (PC and NPC) of lots of different types - from a flamboyant gay strategist to a calculating straight cyborg assassin. For me, one of the joys of role-playing is having characters that are different than me.

I had a thread two years back, "Favorite Gay Characters" where a bunch of people chimed in with fun gay characters they had in their campaigns. That included Pundit and other regulars here.

From my view, there are a lot of jerks and assholes out in the world - both liberal and conservative. I would say to not play your games based on what they say or don't say.

Quote from: tenbones on September 11, 2021, 03:37:23 PM
@jhkim - One of your claims on this side-thread about believing TTRPG's don't have much impact on culture. Do you feel just because you stand with the SJW's (whether you claim to be one or not is irrelevant) that it's okay in terms of what they're doing to gaming writ large? Because the Satanic Panic people were minorities too relative to the rest of us - and they felt that same righteousness SJW's are claiming. Is it the message you approve of at the expense of us, or methods? Or both?

And further in light of your past with the Satanic Panic, does the passive participation in the current Cult Orthodoxy give you any pause?

I don't quite understand the question. I definitely disapprove of some methods -- especially using hyperbole and/or slander to lie about one's political opponents - or worse harassing and/or doxing them. I try to speak out against these in the communities that I'm in. Among my liberal friends I think I've got some reputation as a pain-in-the-ass stickler for facts.

I think the Satanic Panic succeeded in making a lot of kids miserable - and I opposed it for that. I just don't think it helped its own political cause - I think in the long term, it damaged the moralizing movement that it represented. How I opposed the Satanic Panic was by being open and public about my role-playing and how it was a good thing. I played publicly and spoke openly about my gaming - later putting together web resources like listing psychological studies of RPGs that showed no sign of them being unhealthy.

I feel like that's something I'd support here. I'd love to see more positive talk about what's good about people's OSR games and how the criticisms made of them are mistaken. But it seems like most of the furor around here is over, say, someone publishing a combat wheelchair writeup - and I don't have any problem with that.

Quote from: tenbones on September 11, 2021, 03:37:23 PM
Imagine if Hasbro was purchased by the Catholic Church and they started proseltyzing their faith in the D&D brand. Breadcrumbing the Sacraments, pre-game session prayers to St. Gygax (His miracle of course that earned him sainthood was rolling 7 natural-20's in a row), then public skorning of non-believers, after session sin-shaming for whatever "bad things" your PC's did, and then the GM Confessional etc. etc.

If true, there'd be a ton of new people introduced to role-playing who didn't consider it before. That sounds like a fine thing to me. They have fun with their game, and maybe a percentage of them would come over to a style of role-playing that I'm interested in. I guess this hinges on the idea of the Catholic Church buying Hasbro. Would you be fine with it if the Catholic Church just came up with their own branch of D&D like Pathfinder?

I guess that's about brand loyalty and buying new material. I don't have any loyalty to Hasbro. If they stopped producing stuff I was interested in, I'd just switch to some other publisher. There were plenty of D&D imitators even before the OGL and retro-clones.

Quote from: tenbones on September 11, 2021, 03:37:23 PM
Well said Rob.

The inversion of the "Satanic Panic" to the "White-CIS-Hetero-Patriarchy Panic" is not only brands SJW's as hypocrites, it shows what anti-social nerds given some power does. And these are not people outside our hobby as it was in the 80's. Back then we were all in the same boat knowing fully well the moralizers were wrong, and we battened down the hatches and soldiered on.

Some didn't make it - and they left hobby for various reasons.

But since the SJW Cult subsumed by fiat everyone that isn't an "ally" and took their queues from the Marxists further afield in the culture and started applying it in our hobby - unlike in the 80's where the detractors were external to our hobby, now they were inside the hobby. And the Alinsky tactics served them well, and those turds floated to the top.

Imagine if Hasbro was purchased by the Catholic Church and they started proseltyzing their faith in the D&D brand. Breadcrumbing the Sacraments, pre-game session prayers to St. Gygax (His miracle of course that earned him sainthood was rolling 7 natural-20's in a row), then public skorning of non-believers, after session sin-shaming for whatever "bad things" your PC's did, and then the GM Confessional etc. etc.

Yeah I don't want that ideology inserted into my gaming products either unless it's a game specifically about that.

This is what makes it so insidious. The anti-historical and antisocial understanding that cultures are self-defining - "western culture" is what created all this. This pathological need to nurse ones victim-status as clout is gross. What's grosser is the people that play along with it as if it's okay.

Only a loser needs "representation" in a medium to feel validated. No game yet in nearly 50+ years of gaming (jesus...) or even in popular fiction outside of Starship Troopers has come close to representing me (Johnny Rico, you badass na nanay/i]). The fact that these losers currently are pushing their issues on the rest of us is the problem. I don't *need* to be invested in your problems and issues (to SJWs) and I don't want to game around them because well adjusted people can do that on the fly at their table.

@jhkim - One of your claims on this side-thread about believing TTRPG's don't have much impact on culture. Do you feel just because you stand with the SJW's (whether you claim to be one or not is irrelevant) that it's okay in terms of what they're doing to gaming writ large? Because the Satanic Panic people were minorities too relative to the rest of us - and they felt that same righteousness SJW's are claiming. Is it the message you approve of at the expense of us, or methods? Or both?

And further in light of your past with the Satanic Panic, does the passive participation in the current Cult Orthodoxy give you any pause?

Cheers man. I think you've really nailed it here, though. The woke scolds are indeed a cult. It's a bit like scientology or some such. Make everyone your enemy who has different views or worse yet, is apolitical (the heresy!). LOL I mean we are all on their enemy list.

I just adore their logic:
"You have no gays in your game".
"You have no black people in the art in your game".
"You haven't enough women".
"How dare you create a list!? Waaaah...."
"You only want free speech just to say nasty things"
"You can't enjoy the games you played years ago, because the world has changed."
"A game can't be apolitical"

So, you are totally homophobic, racist, sexist, and therefore a 'suppressive person', and must be attacked at all costs. Just one quick message to the woke scolds. You do know, we don't care if you want to make games with good looking naked men holding up their swords. Just make the games you want. Portray white men, as weak sickly Gollums, and have 7ft women in full tactical armour. Whatever floats your boat! Nobody cares, except you guys... Again, just sod off and do your own thing.

Indeed we don't need ideology in a game - unless it's specifically part of it (exactly, as you said Ten). We are adults, and don't need any clockwork orange rehabilitation.

Indeed, how these woke dweebs got into the hobby I don't really know, and then suddenly became part of the zeitgeist of modern gaming. Back in the 80s (beyond the odd few assholes) everyone was not only welcomed but nearly grabbed off the street and then virtually nailed to the table. Players were like gold dust! A thing they forget to tell you conveniently.

So all this dubious rhetoric, that gaming was somehow intentionally racist, sexist or homophobic is a  pile of shite, as far as I'm concerned, pure lies!

A lot if it seems to be about American white guilt, and righting the wrongs of their past. Do I deny, that some European countries invaded other countries (cough, Irish)? Nope, and it was terrible. But am I responsible for it? The fuck I am... In fact, no one is. And not white Americans either. I do not accept responsibility for the sins of others, no matter what skin colour they have.  And especially actions that happened 400 years ago. Or 700 years ago if you want to go the Irish oppression route.

My partner is English. Is she, with her white skin, somehow responsible for the raping of Irish resources that effectually led to the death of 1 million Irish with the famine outbreak? Nope... And when our country was divided up, and given to rich English families who then forced the Irish to work themselves to death on their own land. Do we blame the 'modern day' English? No we don't. Believe it or not, I hate talking about Ireland, but it shows the woke fascists that skin colour means fuck all. It didn't help us one iota, having snow white skin when they wanted the little resources we had.

The next time any of these shit ball woke scolds visits Ireland. Please take time out of your poxy holiday, and go and visit the mass grave site in skibbereen, county Cork. And tell an Irish person why they should bear YOUR American white guilt, because of their filthy white skin. You might want the number of a dentist on speed dial, however.

You can only be guilty for your own actions and no one else's. Never let anyone tell you otherwise. No matter what type of emotional coercive and manipulative tactics they try.

Are there problems with racism today? Yes, and they need to be dealt with, harshly. Same with sexism, homophobia or anything that causes harm to another (real harm that is, not at an elf game table). Do we forget the past? Of course not, nobody has ever forgotten WWII. The thing you do, is move forward while trying to set things right. I'm not saying that these are easy fixes btw, they are for bigger and better people than me (or any woke scold) to fix.

What these real issues have to do with an elf games RPGs I still don't exactly know. Simply find another table where folks are nice, and take your slacktivisim out into the real world and do something truly useful.

It's their bizarre illogical notions they keep spewing out. Or blowing things waaaay out of proportion. It makes no sense and is not conducive to get people onboard to their position.

But back to my Punk roots now. Ian Macke from Minor Threat, had these wokes pegged way back in the 80's:

"I'm sorry
For something that I didn't do
Lynched somebody
But I don't know who
You blame me for slavery
A hundred years before I was born

Guilty of being white
Guilty of being white
Guilty of being white
Guilty of being white

I'm a convict (Guilty!)
Of a racist crime (Guilty!)
I've only served (Guilty!)
Nineteen years of my time"

Quote from: jhkim on September 11, 2021, 08:07:13 PM
I just want to play games and have fun too. I'm straight, and I've had fun by having a variety of characters (PC and NPC) of lots of different types - from a flamboyant gay strategist to a calculating straight cyborg assassin. For me, one of the joys of role-playing is having characters that are different than me.

I know what you mean... But which side? The one that does'nt really care what you do, or the one that calls you every name under the sun if you don't like their nu way of gaming. But I know what you are trying to say.

I've never played a gay character. Mainly because, I can do anything you mentioned with a straight character well, nearly anything . My point is, that I never saw someone's sexual orientation as remotely interesting or character defining (that may be different from others). Basically, unless it's important or baked into the system it's not really talked about in game. At best it's, I flirt with the barmaid, we go upstairs and fade to black. As I said before, if a player wants to be gay, that's totally cool, I'll run with it as a GM. But box ticking, for the sake of it. I just can't bring myself to do that, just because woke skolds are saying  'you must!'.

I like playing women the odd time. Mainly because, of some cool women in movies and tv shows, etc. In merp I loved playing black orcs. It was fun hunting down humans. Yummy!

But this is it. Have fun and play whatever you want... There's no restrictions as long as everyone is having fun at the table. Just don't try and tell me what to do.

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 11, 2021, 06:35:47 PM

Yes, Tubesock Army. We know that you have to be medicated.

Only after your mom stays the night

Interestingly, one of the consequences of the Satanic Panic is that for decades after, in the RPG hobby, the hobby became kind of antagonistic to Christianity, especially the fundamentalist variety, for understandable reasons. Game designers pushed back by having more strongly anti-christian or pro-pagan elements in their products, and you had a lot of neo-pagans and witches and magicians and taoists or whatever talking proudly about their beliefs at gaming tables while Christians just had to kind of keep quiet or face questions like "how can you play, doesn't your church say D&D is satanist?"

Well, when the dam finally breaks and the SJWs get what they so fucking deserve, I certainly hope that in the gaming hobby thereafter being the slightest bit politically inclined in your gaming will be treated AT LEAST with that level of disdain, if not more, for years to come. Where if people even know you vote democrat they'll look at you like you're the enemy and ask "how can you play, doesn't your party say D&D is White Supremacy?"

Quote from: Tubesock Army on September 11, 2021, 10:36:26 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 11, 2021, 06:35:47 PM

Yes, Tubesock Army. We know that you have to be medicated.

Only after your mom stays the night

Oh, you're an all night mom fucker. I had no idea.

Quote from: palaeomerus on September 12, 2021, 12:30:44 AM

Quote from: Tubesock Army on September 11, 2021, 10:36:26 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 11, 2021, 06:35:47 PM

Yes, Tubesock Army. We know that you have to be medicated.

Only after your mom stays the night

Oh, you're an all night mom fucker. I had no idea.

You should have asked my mom........ 

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on September 11, 2021, 08:47:06 PM
Just one quick message to the woke scolds. You do know, we don't care if you want to make games with good looking naked men holding up their swords. Just make the games you want. Portray white men, as weak sickly Gollums, and have 7ft women in full tactical armour. Whatever floats your boat! Nobody cares, except you guys... Again, just sod off and do your own thing.

You might not care, but people do care - at least here on theRPGsite. There were 348 replies discussing "Thirsty Sword Lesbians", 202 replies concerning "Coyote & Crow", and so forth. The pattern is very clear that posters here do care, and they are really attached to getting outraged at all the details of liberal RPGs and RPG supplements. Outrage drives interest - as social media has proven.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on September 11, 2021, 09:05:43 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 11, 2021, 08:07:13 PM
I just want to play games and have fun too. I'm straight, and I've had fun by having a variety of characters (PC and NPC) of lots of different types - from a flamboyant gay strategist to a calculating straight cyborg assassin. For me, one of the joys of role-playing is having characters that are different than me.

I know what you mean... But which side? The one that does'nt really care what you do, or the one that calls you every name under the sun if you don't like their nu way of gaming. But I know what you are trying to say.

I've never played a gay character. Mainly because, I can do anything you mentioned with a straight character well, nearly anything . My point is, that I never saw someone's sexual orientation as remotely interesting or character defining (that may be different from others). Basically, unless it's important or baked into the system it's not really talked about in game. At best it's, I flirt with the barmaid, we go upstairs and fade to black.

Whatever works for you, but it sounds like you're implying that it's different for me. I don't think gayness has to be character defining - it's just a trait. For my favorite gay character in the thread I mentioned, his gayness was only expressed through the equivalent of barmaid flirting. It was a James Bond 007 PC set in the 1980s, so for him, it was just meet a guy in a bar who introduces himself as "Ivan... Ivan Moorcock" -- and then we fade to black. But that was a fun bit of color that definitely added to the game.

Quote from: jhkim on September 12, 2021, 01:09:38 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on September 11, 2021, 08:47:06 PM
Just one quick message to the woke scolds. You do know, we don't care if you want to make games with good looking naked men holding up their swords. Just make the games you want. Portray white men, as weak sickly Gollums, and have 7ft women in full tactical armour. Whatever floats your boat! Nobody cares, except you guys... Again, just sod off and do your own thing.

You might not care, but people do care - at least here on theRPGsite. There were 348 replies discussing "Thirsty Sword Lesbians", 202 replies concerning "Coyote & Crow", and so forth. The pattern is very clear that posters here do care, and they are really attached to getting outraged at all the details of liberal RPGs and RPG supplements. Outrage drives interest - as social media has proven.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on September 11, 2021, 09:05:43 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 11, 2021, 08:07:13 PM
I just want to play games and have fun too. I'm straight, and I've had fun by having a variety of characters (PC and NPC) of lots of different types - from a flamboyant gay strategist to a calculating straight cyborg assassin. For me, one of the joys of role-playing is having characters that are different than me.

I know what you mean... But which side? The one that does'nt really care what you do, or the one that calls you every name under the sun if you don't like their nu way of gaming. But I know what you are trying to say.

I've never played a gay character. Mainly because, I can do anything you mentioned with a straight character well, nearly anything . My point is, that I never saw someone's sexual orientation as remotely interesting or character defining (that may be different from others). Basically, unless it's important or baked into the system it's not really talked about in game. At best it's, I flirt with the barmaid, we go upstairs and fade to black.

Whatever works for you, but it sounds like you're implying that it's different for me. I don't think gayness has to be character defining - it's just a trait. For my favorite gay character in the thread I mentioned, his gayness was only expressed through the equivalent of barmaid flirting. It was a James Bond 007 PC set in the 1980s, so for him, it was just meet a guy in a bar who introduces himself as "Ivan... Ivan Moorcock" -- and then we fade to black. But that was a fun bit of color that definitely added to the game.

Hm... I think you're not quite getting what I mean by caring here. Most on this site, do not give a hoot if someone wants to create or play a game like, Thirsty Sword Thespians. And no one here would call for it to be banned (AFAIK). Now laughing about it on the other hand, with it's rather 'twee' concept, and the way Hicks presented its set of player per-requisites deserves plenty of ridicule. And that's what it got pages of folks taking the piss out of it. Bravo! Says I.

Now, on the other hand, the Woke Scolds are calling for bans or revisionist material left right and center. There's a huge difference between the two factions when it comes to gaming. Again, products like 'Ravenswoke' deserve ridicule. They are more than welcome to take the piss out of the 'red list' as well.
Fair is far after all.

We only begin to 'care' when it encroaches on the fabric of the game itself. Like D&D 5e. Personally, I couldn't a fig, as I'm not a D&D fan. But I do care somewhat that the guys at C7 pandered a bit for WFRP 4e. Of course, I can't really speak for other people on this site. So, they can feel free to chime in.

Bottom line is, I don't accept your statement as you presented it. Of course you're entitled to your opinion, unless you're wanted by the woke scolds. Like GJ, Venger or Pundit (and the others).

On to your Ivan Character:
So how do you define gayness then? What are you saying, that you have to 'camp it up' or something? If so, is that not a bit of a stereotype? I can already feel the woke scolds waging their virtual fingers at you. Tut...Tut...

Ivan Moorcock... could be applied to a woman as well, just saying.

Thing is, if you want sexual orientation to be a big part of the game that's totally cool. I've no problem with it at all. But I don't see it as character defining for 'my' games at least. Because when I GM my games tend to be about horror, darkness, violence, action and mystery. Humor, in the fashion of 'Are You Being Served" does not interest me. Black Adder and Alan Partridge was more my thing.

But again, you do you.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on September 12, 2021, 01:57:48 PM
Thing is, if you want sexual orientation to be a big part of the game that's totally cool. I've no problem with it at all. But I don't see it as character defining for 'my' games at least. Because when I GM my games tend to be about horror, darkness, violence, action and mystery. Humor, in the fashion of 'Are You Being Served" does not interest me. Black Adder and Alan Partridge was more my thing.

But again, you do you.

I feel like this is part of the disconnect here. You're reading "gay characters exist at all" to somehow that sexual orientation is a big part of all my games, which is absolutely not the case.

For example, my old James Bond 007 campaign was campy because it was based on 1980s James Bond movies. Still, it was focused on superspy action, gadgets, and mystery. The characters were all double-oh agents - but all with differences from Bond, doing over-the-top action like rooftop shootouts, car chases, and so forth.

My favorite PC from that was Quentin Falstaff III, who was more of an old-style English gentleman. While Bond was a slick urban gentleman who sipped his martini and used a petite little pistol, Quentin was a big horse-riding, shotgun-shooting, beer-drinking country aristocrat who was an action hero more like Rambo. I made sure to work in a horse-riding chase at one point to give him his spotlight.

My games vary a lot, though. I run and play a lot of Call of Cthulhu, which is generally very dark. The last campaign was Masks of Nyarlathotep, which had a lot of action and violence - it was more shotguns and dynamite than some of my other CoC games. I also play D&D (most recently 5E), Monster of the Week, Amber Diceless, and many other systems.

Quote from: jhkim on September 12, 2021, 04:00:40 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on September 12, 2021, 01:57:48 PM
Thing is, if you want sexual orientation to be a big part of the game that's totally cool. I've no problem with it at all. But I don't see it as character defining for 'my' games at least. Because when I GM my games tend to be about horror, darkness, violence, action and mystery. Humor, in the fashion of 'Are You Being Served" does not interest me. Black Adder and Alan Partridge was more my thing.

But again, you do you.

I feel like this is part of the disconnect here. You're reading "gay characters exist at all" to somehow that sexual orientation is a big part of all my games, which is absolutely not the case.

That's fair enough...