So there's Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1730454032/the-black-hack/) for yet another minimalist retroclone.
It caught my attention because I've liked the other products by Peter Regan's Square Hex company (http://squarehex.myshopify.com/), especially their choice of typography and layout. But I only backed this one once I saw the low price and the rules preview.
From what I've read of Whitehack (still waiting for it to arrive in the mail) and what I've read in the Black Hack's quick rules highlights (on the Kickstarter page), I think that I might end up with a nice "black and white" hack of minimalist D&D; merging the elements that I like best from both.
What do you folks think? Have you played rules-light games like this before (ie, Whitehack)? Any potential pitfalls or shortcomings that I should be aware of?
I'd need to know a lot more about the game rules before backing it, especially since stuff like Microlite20, Swords and Wizardry, and Basic Fantasy are all available for free and all give fun variations on rule-lite gaming.
I won't consider WhiteHack because they won't offer, on purpose, a PDF version and there's pretty much no preview. Also, their FAQ on what is Open Content says pretty much "buy the rules and read the license page to find out".
IMO, the main shortcoming to be aware of is that some players will demand more crunch even if said crunch isn't doing anything.
I've written about my experiences with Whitehack here (http://odd74.proboards.com/thread/9370/whitehack-great-new-rpg) and my other favourite rules-lite game is Into the Odd (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6MR1KWIUR9UaFhnSU5TcDRVblk/edit) - that's the free primer.
Looking at TBH (I have the Beta, and the final version seems improved) it would be a good match with them for hacking your favourite bits. My group plays mostly OD&D or rules-lite games, and as a DM I find them easier to prep for - TBH has a neat little micro-setting Sorrowset (http://dngnsndrgns.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/here-are-two-cheeky-previews-of-second.html)as one of the stretch goals that looked fun on the youtube actual play here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sSOlGcY5Z_Q)
AsenRG has voiced the one pitfall I can think of, but I guess I've been lucky with my players
Quote from: Sean !;879396I've written about my experiences with Whitehack here (http://odd74.proboards.com/thread/9370/whitehack-great-new-rpg) and my other favourite rules-lite game is Into the Odd (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6MR1KWIUR9UaFhnSU5TcDRVblk/edit) - that's the free primer.
AsenRG has voiced the one pitfall I can think of, but I guess I've been lucky with my players
Thanks for the first link to ProBoards--it has some of the better details of WhiteHack I've been able to find. Enough that I now know I don't want it. ;) But enough to let other people know they might.
With my players, they could care less about the system, as long as the system doesn't get in the way of role playing or them having fun.
Thanks for the feedback, folks.
Yeah I'm glad that I made the purchase of Whitehack. It sounds right for me.
Black Hack might add a few neat features here and there (the new inventory system looks neat, but that's only based on the image of the character sheet).
I also like the idea of inventory tracking: you start with a larger die (eg. d10) and every time you use that resource, or the GM asks you to tax it, you roll that die. On a 1 or 2, reduce the inventory die by one "step" (eg. down to a d8 and so on). At least, I think that's how it works.
At the cost of the PDF, I went ahead and backed it. I'd been looking for something simple to run the occasional OSR session for my Sunday group (a few of them are new to roleplaying so I think it might be a neat experience for them).
Less than 10 minutes to go, this KS has proved that a rules-lite KS with limited stretch goals and no add-ons can fund successfully
The Black Hack (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1730454032/the-black-hack)
Quote from: Sean !;882022Less than 10 minutes to go, this KS has proved that a rules-lite KS with limited stretch goals and no add-ons can fund successfully
The Black Hack (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1730454032/the-black-hack)
Ok. Though he did still seem to have a lot of stretch goals. Though I do agree it's pretty minimalist compared to others.
Also, for some reason this whole project gives off the aura of a dude who really doesn't know what he's doing. I don't know why; like someone else thought his houserules were cool and convinced him to do a KS for it, and now its all kind of spiraled a bit and he can't stop it.
Quote from: RPGPundit;882611Also, for some reason this whole project gives off the aura of a dude who really doesn't know what he's doing. I don't know why; like someone else thought his houserules were cool and convinced him to do a KS for it, and now its all kind of spiraled a bit and he can't stop it.
Except for stating that this is his 16th of 15 successful Kickstarters
Quote from: TristramEvans;882617Except for stating that this is his 16th of 15 successful Kickstarters
Well, it might be a cultivated style.
Quote from: TristramEvans;882617Except for stating that this is his 16th of 15 successful Kickstarters
I thought Holy Shit, but then saw they were mostly some form of graph or hex paper or character sheet. The geomorph beer coasters look kinda cool though.
I'm sure he'll be able to deliver; my earlier statement wasn't a comment on that. It was just about the style of the product and his way of communicating about it.
Quote from: RPGPundit;883531I'm sure he'll be able to deliver; my earlier statement wasn't a comment on that. It was just about the style of the product and his way of communicating about it.
Well, many people in the hobby could use better PR skills;).
Quote from: AsenRG;883590Well, many people in the hobby could use better PR skills;).
If, of course you assume the effect different from the intent. ;)
Quote from: CRKrueger;883632If, of course you assume the effect different from the intent. ;)
Well, I assume them to have enough brains to know good PR helps your sales. I also assume them to want sales.
So, until proven differently, I assume the effect is indeed different from the intent.
If the game is called "the Black Hack", and is meant to be a slightly badass punk sort of houseruled-oD&D, you probably do well by making it seem less polished in terms of presentation. There's a lot of people who that appeals with.
Quote from: RPGPundit;884305If the game is called "the Black Hack", and is meant to be a slightly badass punk sort of houseruled-oD&D, you probably do well by making it seem less polished in terms of presentation. There's a lot of people who that appeals with.
I think both me and CRK were thinking of different KS campaigns when discussing PR, effect and intent. I know that at least I was.
The Black Hack didn't make any PR marvels, but it obviously appealed to enough people to get funded, and I think that's what counts.
Quote from: AsenRG;884412I think both me and CRK were thinking of different KS campaigns when discussing PR, effect and intent. I know that at least I was.
The Black Hack didn't make any PR marvels, but it obviously appealed to enough people to get funded, and I think that's what counts.
Indeed it is!
Looked through the PDF. Not thrilled with it but for $1.50 I'm not gonna complain too much. heh
Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;886979Looked through the PDF. Not thrilled with it but for $1.50 I'm not gonna complain too much. heh
Agreed. The best feature for me is the usage die mechanic and a few other very minor things. Looks like leveling up gets you nothing more than extra HP. I'll stick with Whitehack.
Heh, I hadn't noticed it's arrived.
Quote from: Stainless;887008Agreed. The best feature for me is the usage die mechanic and a few other very minor things. Looks like leveling up gets you nothing more than extra HP. I'll stick with Whitehack.
Same here. There are a few good things in there, and I like the layout and typography. But I don't get some of the rules (Armor as damage reduction is fine, but it gets used up the first time? What?).
I'm surprised that armor didn't follow the same mechanic as the usage die for wear and tear.
Armor is a bizzar rule. E.g. Leather has 2 AP. The first time you're hit, it soaks 2 hp of damage. Then for the rest of the combat it does nothing, you're effectively naked. The justification that, "you're too tired or wounded to make effective use of the armor" doesn't make any sense.
Quote from: Stainless;887111The justification that, "you're too tired or wounded to make effective use of the armor" doesn't make any sense.
Have you ever tried using armour while tired and/or wounded? No? Well, you're not really an expert then, are you?
Quote from: Sable Wyvern;887126Have you ever tried using armour while tired and/or wounded? No? Well, you're not really an expert then, are you?
I thought that HP was meant to track how long a character can last in combat?
In my opinion, if armour provides damage reduction, then it might accumulate wear and tear as battle progresses. Personally, I'd use the Usage Die for armor in the Black Hack. The smaller the armor value, the smaller the die. Each time you suffer damage, roll the usage die for that armor.
Maybe a critical hit automatically drops the usage die one step!
Best case scenario is: Plate & mail + Large Shield for 6 armor points. Use a d20.
It actually matches up super well. So well that I'm surprised that it wasn't used as a rule:
AC / Die
6 = d20
5 = d12
4 = d10
3 = d8
2 = d6
1 = d4
Not sure how to handle magic armour. Maybe it only wears down on a roll of 1 instead of 1 or 2?
Quote from: Sable Wyvern;887126Have you ever tried using armour while tired and/or wounded? No? Well, you're not really an expert then, are you?
When a weapon strikes my body covered in armour, I don't see how being tired or wounded has anything to do with it. I have armour there and it should in part resist the cutting edge.
However, I completely understand that a penalty for being tired/wounded makes sense. Its effect will be to make one less focused and coordinated. As a game mechanic, I would therefore expect the effect to be the lowering of the effective DEX and so the character would get hit more often. I don't understand why the AP system and that particular justification was chosen. Effective "use" of armour could only be the ability to place the best armoured areas into the path of the weapon, but that's the DEX check surely.
I was hoping that my comment was ridiculous enough that I didn't have to point out it was sarcasm.:hatsoff:
Quote from: Sable Wyvern;887126Have you ever tried using armour while tired and/or wounded?
Actually, yes, what's your point?
Well, sarcasm is better expressed via emoticons. Personally, I have a hard time understanding the purpose of the rule, but I assume the authors might have something in mind.
Quote from: Sable Wyvern;887156I was hoping that my comment was ridiculous enough that I didn't have to point out it was sarcasm.:hatsoff:
Ooops, I must have been having a German moment.
$1.50 seems seriously underpriced for a PDF, especially a core ruleset.
Edit: ah, ok, it's only 20 pages long. Still a bit underpriced, I think. But strategically so, not just out of idiocy or something.
The product was just updated based on more playtesting and feedback.
Most noticeable changes:
- Armor points increased (highest it can go is about 10 ap, which means a fully armoured Knight won't be rendered helpless by a lucky kobold in the first round of combat)
- Magic armor now simply doubles the armor points
- Spell list now includes descriptions of spell effects (but the levels haven't been included, unless I've missed something)
I read the magic rules a bit more carefully and they're better than I thought. 'Not sure if I gave the game a fair critique.
Quote from: RPGPundit;887995$1.50 seems seriously underpriced for a PDF, especially a core ruleset.
Edit: ah, ok, it's only 20 pages long. Still a bit underpriced, I think. But strategically so, not just out of idiocy or something.
Right, it's simple, minimalistic, etc.
What I like most is probably the chance to increase ability score with each level.
I just use the 10 minute rest period instead of an hour -- it feels more like OD&D that way.
Quote from: RPGPundit;887995strategically so, not just out of idiocy or something.
Indeed, this sin;t something we're intending to make our fortunes from, so it makes sense to have a low entry price - with the view to getting as many people checking out the game as possible. Peter (the handsome chap publishing it) is pretty shrewd. Shrewder than I.
Armor points seem to be the biggest 'sticking point' for most people, but i've read stuff like this about alternate non-AC-sytsems before. I've amended the AP's so you get more as a default, eventually (within the next week I think?) a document will be released called 'Additional Things' it comes with a bunch of alternate rules and mod's for the game and AP's are given some slightly different treatment there.
Oh and @Stainless you forget, not all weapons strike your armor. The Thief I play has a long stiletto blade which he uses to slip between the rigid plates/rings of armor. If the wearer is too sluggish to get out of the way they are going to have a bad day. :D
In seriousness, its an abstraction, no more valid that a static AC value. All were trying to do is model a system of damage reduction or evasion. My game uses DEX test to handle evasion. STR doesn't makes sense for reduction, so Armor points make plenty sense in this regard.
Some more typos need to be fixed before hitting print - plus spell numbers on the lists, this seems to be my biggest failing during this process. Otherwise i'm very happy with it.
Welcome to theRPGsite!
I was unconvinced by the armour rules at first, but I am coming around after running a few tests. I hope to run it for real in a month or so, then we'll see whether house rules are in order. As David says, it's all an abstraction at some level or other - the only truly "realistic" model is the thing itself.
I can't remember where I found this, but somebody "forked" the Black Hack before it went to Kickstarter as the "Rat Hack". The look and feel are similar, but Rat Hack adds skills and races to the mix. The link is still active at: The Rat Hack (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6uX2PHkX2zBeEw5UjVwS1BtRjg/view?pref=2&pli=1)
Oh yeah, the author is Dustin Ratliff.
Dustin Ratliff forked the Black Hat and created The Rat Hack, linked here: The Rat Hack (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6uX2PHkX2zBeEw5UjVwS1BtRjg/view?pref=2&pli=1).
Rat Hack has the same underlying engine as Black Hack, but includes races, class XP tables, a different armor soak system, and some other stuff. I'd probably hybridize the two systems and throw in some other stuff to make a custom Hack for myself.