Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 03, 2023, 11:33:54 PM

Quote from: Fheredin on June 03, 2023, 09:46:27 PM
This combination leads me to my opinion that if you want to learn to make a good roleplaying game, you at least need to know about video game design and interpolate towards the tabletop game.

And your opinion is incorrect (which is what everyone here is trying to tell you).  There's a difference between the specifics of TTRPGs compared to video games (starting with the capabilities of the referee compared to the limitations of programming, and extending to the role of the players' imaginations in each).  Cats and cows are both mammals, but studying a cow's digestive system isn't going to make you competent to treat a cat.  TTRPGs and video games are both games, but the specific context, interface, and goals of each create different requirements in each medium.  Not totally divorced, but very different in some aspects.

The fact that EVERYONE else here sees this and you don't is NOT a sign of your superior "discernment."  As the old saying goes: When one person treats you like an asshole, he is probably the asshole.  When EVERYONE treats you like an asshole... you're the asshole.

Oh, look, another bandwagon fallacy. Why am I not surprised.

I find this forum's infatuation with the bandwagon fallacy to be absolutely bizarre. The exact same argument you are making right now could be applied to RPG Pundit's own work; why would I play Lion and Dragon when 5E is far more popular and that clearly makes it better, right? And why would I watch RPG Pundit's videos when Critical Role is far more popular, and clearly that makes it better, right? You want me to be concerned about "being an asshole?" Pundit's catch-line is literally, "the final boss in internet shitlords." Practically everything about this community falls apart if you appeal to the bandwagon.

Now, clearly you're going to come up with other explanations about why I should play a less popular OSR game compared to D&D. My point is not that those reasons do not exist. Quite the contrary: because those reasons exist, the bandwagon is--and always was--irrelevant.

Quote from: Fheredin on June 04, 2023, 09:26:38 AM
You want me to be concerned about "being an asshole?" Pundit's catch-line is literally, "the final boss in internet shitlords."

That Pundit is frequently an asshole, does not mean that it's good to be an asshole. This is not a Pundit fansite.
Pundit's great virtue is that when he is (as often) an asshole, we can call him an asshole, and not be banned.
Morrus of ENW for instance might arguably even be less of an asshole than Pundit, but if I called Morrus an asshole on ENW for some lame SJW wankery, Umbran would surely ban me. That's the difference between this place and everywhere else. You don't seem to understand this place and what attracts people here, any better than you understand RPGs and why people value them.

It's undeniable that TTRPG more gamist playstyles share a lot of areas and principles with boardgames and videogames. Core gameplay loops (explore dungeon > rest and gear up at town > loop), player rewards and feedback (leveling up, treasure, etc).

But I still posit that won't always be true, due to TTPPGs having a number of distinct playstyles where those principles will have very minor impact, if any. Just look at World of Darkness, where most Games don't even have a clearly identifiable core play loop - half the Vampire 2E groups I know play it in almost LARP-mode, while the other half play it like D&D by night, and the book is very ambiguous about whats supposedly the correct way.

Quote from: Itachi on June 04, 2023, 11:18:12 AM
It's undeniable that TTRPG more gamist playstyles share a lot of areas and principles with boardgames and videogames. Core gameplay loops (explore dungeon > rest and gear up at town > loop), player rewards and feedback (leveling up, treasure, etc).

But I still posit that won't always be true, due to TTPPGs having a number of distinct playstyles where those principles will have very minor impact, if any. Just look at World of Darkness, where most Games don't even have a clearly identifiable core play loop - half the Vampire 2E groups I know play it in almost LARP-mode, while the other half play it like D&D by night, and the book is very ambiguous about whats supposedly the correct way.

Not exactly. RPGs always have core gameplay loops and quite often core feedback loops, and I wouldn't say they have a minor influence on the game, at all. What is true is that the GM and players are not limited to them. They are free to deviate from these core components as much as they wish, and to some extent, deviation is a good thing because it contrasts the mainstay of the game. But most games lose personality the more you deviate, so it's in everyone's interest to keep deviations out of the core loop under control.

Many games have mechanics structured to push players back into the core gameplay after a certain amount of time. Lady Blackbird only lets you refresh after a roleplay scene, and Paranoia has the Six Pack rule to restart the schadenfreude humor of the game upon a PC dying.

Quote from: SHARK on June 03, 2023, 08:32:50 AM
Yep, Chris, right on target. I thought Estar's commentary was definitely more based in what TTRPG's are about.

I try to focus on what I think what would be useful.

Quote from: SHARK on June 03, 2023, 08:32:50 AM
I'm also not sold on how seeking to hyper-fixate on technical elements of "Game Theory" is really worthwhile. When people were 12 years old playing D&D or GMing D&D, nobody gave a damn about bloviating about "Game Theory". Beyond that, seeking to bring academic logic rules of structure into a discussion about running RPG's...*Laughing* Yeah, ok.

The main reason I talk about my "theory" (such as it is) is to make folks aware that their favorite system is probably more flexible than they think. The reason I came the conclusion I have because I have ran the same setting with enough different groups but with different system to notice that all RPGs have more in common than common wisdom says. That this is due their focus on describing what players can do as their characters. As more RPGs about humans having adventure they tend to try to describe similar things.

The most practical aspect of this was when I adopt or try a new system I compared to the list of things I know players try to do in my campaigns.  Learning the system RAW and then learning how it handles my list generally means that it will work out for running my setting in a campaign. And it works as well as it have because of the focus on handling what individual characters do.

Also I learned what really is part of a system and what just the common way of playing that system but not really in the rules. Like levels. Some will treat levels as some special mark. I treat level as a life experience. So every character in my campaign has a class and a level. Even if the author of that particular edition try to set up it as level as something special. D&D 4e was a edition that leaned really hard into this. In the handful of D&D 4e session and the one campaign I ran, I ignored using minions.

Quote from: Fheredin on June 04, 2023, 09:26:38 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 03, 2023, 11:33:54 PM

Quote from: Fheredin on June 03, 2023, 09:46:27 PM
This combination leads me to my opinion that if you want to learn to make a good roleplaying game, you at least need to know about video game design and interpolate towards the tabletop game.

And your opinion is incorrect (which is what everyone here is trying to tell you).  There's a difference between the specifics of TTRPGs compared to video games (starting with the capabilities of the referee compared to the limitations of programming, and extending to the role of the players' imaginations in each).  Cats and cows are both mammals, but studying a cow's digestive system isn't going to make you competent to treat a cat.  TTRPGs and video games are both games, but the specific context, interface, and goals of each create different requirements in each medium.  Not totally divorced, but very different in some aspects.

The fact that EVERYONE else here sees this and you don't is NOT a sign of your superior "discernment."  As the old saying goes: When one person treats you like an asshole, he is probably the asshole.  When EVERYONE treats you like an asshole... you're the asshole.

Oh, look, another bandwagon fallacy. Why am I not surprised.

I find this forum's infatuation with the bandwagon fallacy to be absolutely bizarre. The exact same argument you are making right now could be applied to RPG Pundit's own work; why would I play Lion and Dragon when 5E is far more popular and that clearly makes it better, right? And why would I watch RPG Pundit's videos when Critical Role is far more popular, and clearly that makes it better, right? You want me to be concerned about "being an asshole?" Pundit's catch-line is literally, "the final boss in internet shitlords." Practically everything about this community falls apart if you appeal to the bandwagon.

Now, clearly you're going to come up with other explanations about why I should play a less popular OSR game compared to D&D. My point is not that those reasons do not exist. Quite the contrary: because those reasons exist, the bandwagon is--and always was--irrelevant.

Bandwagon fallacy?  Because I point out that everyone else disagrees with you (so you might want to figure out why)?  That's not what that means.  You are clearly are using terms that you don't fully understand.  Apparently you've decided to educate everyone here on the Dunning-Kruger Effect, too, with yourself as the example...

Quote from: Fheredin on June 04, 2023, 03:21:42 PMNot exactly. RPGs always have core gameplay loops and quite often core feedback loops, and I wouldn't say they have a minor influence on the game, at all. What is true is that the GM and players are not limited to them. They are free to deviate from these core components as much as they wish, and to some extent, deviation is a good thing because it contrasts the mainstay of the game. But most games lose personality the more you deviate, so it's in everyone's interest to keep deviations out of the core loop under control.

Many games have mechanics structured to push players back into the core gameplay after a certain amount of time. Lady Blackbird only lets you refresh after a roleplay scene, and Paranoia has the Six Pack rule to restart the schadenfreude humor of the game upon a PC dying.

While I agree that every game has a core play loop, not all games present that as solid procedures to be followed. Some present it as a toolkit to be used or ignored as the players see fit, while others make it a point that "if you don't follow this play loop to a T, you may as well be playing another game entirely". Which goes back to my point about playing styles and cultures. No matter how tight a given design is, it's only worth as much as that specific culture values it.

P.S: nice examples with Paranoia and Lady Blackbird.

Quote from: estar on June 04, 2023, 04:51:24 PM

Quote from: SHARK on June 03, 2023, 08:32:50 AM
Yep, Chris, right on target. I thought Estar's commentary was definitely more based in what TTRPG's are about.

I try to focus on what I think what would be useful.

Quote from: SHARK on June 03, 2023, 08:32:50 AM
I'm also not sold on how seeking to hyper-fixate on technical elements of "Game Theory" is really worthwhile. When people were 12 years old playing D&D or GMing D&D, nobody gave a damn about bloviating about "Game Theory". Beyond that, seeking to bring academic logic rules of structure into a discussion about running RPG's...*Laughing* Yeah, ok.

The main reason I talk about my "theory" (such as it is) is to make folks aware that their favorite system is probably more flexible than they think. The reason I came the conclusion I have because I have ran the same setting with enough different groups but with different system to notice that all RPGs have more in common than common wisdom says. That this is due their focus on describing what players can do as their characters. As more RPGs about humans having adventure they tend to try to describe similar things.

The most practical aspect of this was when I adopt or try a new system I compared to the list of things I know players try to do in my campaigns.  Learning the system RAW and then learning how it handles my list generally means that it will work out for running my setting in a campaign. And it works as well as it have because of the focus on handling what individual characters do.

Also I learned what really is part of a system and what just the common way of playing that system but not really in the rules. Like levels. Some will treat levels as some special mark. I treat level as a life experience. So every character in my campaign has a class and a level. Even if the author of that particular edition try to set up it as level as something special. D&D 4e was a edition that leaned really hard into this. In the handful of D&D 4e session and the one campaign I ran, I ignored using minions.

Greetings!

Good stuff, Estar! I agree. In my own world of Thandor, I have run campaigns in my world over the decades, using a variety of systems--AD&D, Rolemaster, 3E, 5E, and such, and while some of the dials of magic power change--it becomes apparent that the actual system used is irrelevant. What is far more important is ME running the world, and the PLAYERS doing stuff in the world that they know and love. The mechanics of the world have changed periodically with the different systems, but everything that the PLAYERS know, love, and trust to be real and true in the world--has remained unchanged.

The whole system thing and focus on theory and mechanics can occasionally be useful and has some commonalities with TTRPG's, but video game theory crafting just isn't that relevant for TTRPG's. TTRPG's are much more about the GM, the Players, stories, social interactions and roleplaying events than anything to do with "Theory Crafting" or philosophical debate and argument structure.

Your Wilderlands world has always sounded awesome, Rob! You always have a solid grasp on what is important for TTRPG's.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Itachi on June 05, 2023, 01:48:48 PM

Quote from: Fheredin on June 04, 2023, 03:21:42 PMNot exactly. RPGs always have core gameplay loops and quite often core feedback loops, and I wouldn't say they have a minor influence on the game, at all. What is true is that the GM and players are not limited to them. They are free to deviate from these core components as much as they wish, and to some extent, deviation is a good thing because it contrasts the mainstay of the game. But most games lose personality the more you deviate, so it's in everyone's interest to keep deviations out of the core loop under control.

Many games have mechanics structured to push players back into the core gameplay after a certain amount of time. Lady Blackbird only lets you refresh after a roleplay scene, and Paranoia has the Six Pack rule to restart the schadenfreude humor of the game upon a PC dying.

While I agree that every game has a core play loop, not all games present that as solid procedures to be followed. Some present it as a toolkit to be used or ignored as the players see fit, while others make it a point that "if you don't follow this play loop to a T, you may as well be playing another game entirely". Which goes back to my point about playing styles and cultures. No matter how tight a given design is, it's only worth as much as that specific culture values it.

P.S: nice examples with Paranoia and Lady Blackbird.

I thought the peanut gallery would react well to some examples. Well, react, anyways.

I do see your point with cultures of play, but I think that's not quite the full story, either. A game designed to have a tight gameplay loop can be forcibly opened up by the GM and it usually doesn't cause problems which you can't manage, but a game with a loose gameplay loop usually can't be tightened. Tightening a gameplay loop usually requires game design skill, so you would expect GMs with a homebrewing background to be able to do it better than GMs with a RAW mentality, because when the GM designs a gameplay loop to tighten the game, arguably you aren't playing the same game; you're playing the GM's homebrew. Loose gameplay loops make a mechanical ratchet which only works to loosen play and not tighten.

Although even this isn't a perfect assessment because gameplay loops fit into different parts of the game.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 05, 2023, 11:15:33 AM
Bandwagon fallacy?  Because I point out that everyone else disagrees with you (so you might want to figure out why)?  That's not what that means.  You are clearly are using terms that you don't fully understand.  Apparently you've decided to educate everyone here on the Dunning-Kruger Effect, too, with yourself as the example...

Quote from: Fheredin on June 05, 2023, 04:18:38 PM
I thought the peanut gallery would react well to some examples. Well, react, anyways.

This is completely irrelevant, but here's this strange and obscure Wikipedia article on a prey behavior called stotting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stotting

QuoteThe question of why prey animals stot has been investigated by evolutionary biologists including John Maynard Smith, C. D. Fitzgibbon, and Tim Caro; all of them conclude that the most likely explanation given the available evidence is that it is an honest signal to predators that the stotting animal would be difficult to catch. Such a signal is called "honest" as it is not deceptive in any way, and would benefit both predator and prey; the predator as it avoids a costly and unproductive chase, and the prey as it does not get chased.

Stotting also makes for an effective form of mockery, but that's purely academic.

Quote from: Fheredin on June 05, 2023, 05:38:10 PM
This is completely irrelevant, but here's this strange and obscure Wikipedia article on a prey behavior called stotting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stotting

QuoteThe question of why prey animals stot has been investigated by evolutionary biologists including John Maynard Smith, C. D. Fitzgibbon, and Tim Caro; all of them conclude that the most likely explanation given the available evidence is that it is an honest signal to predators that the stotting animal would be difficult to catch. Such a signal is called "honest" as it is not deceptive in any way, and would benefit both predator and prey; the predator as it avoids a costly and unproductive chase, and the prey as it does not get chased.

Stotting also makes for an effective form of mockery, but that's purely academic.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 05, 2023, 11:15:33 AM
Bandwagon fallacy?  Because I point out that everyone else disagrees with you (so you might want to figure out why)?  That's not what that means.  You are clearly are using terms that you don't fully understand.  Apparently you've decided to educate everyone here on the Dunning-Kruger Effect, too, with yourself as the example...

Quote from: Brad on June 05, 2023, 05:09:39 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 05, 2023, 11:15:33 AM
Bandwagon fallacy?  Because I point out that everyone else disagrees with you (so you might want to figure out why)?  That's not what that means.  You are clearly are using terms that you don't fully understand.  Apparently you've decided to educate everyone here on the Dunning-Kruger Effect, too, with yourself as the example...

Quote from: Fheredin on June 05, 2023, 04:18:38 PM
I thought the peanut gallery would react well to some examples. Well, react, anyways.

There's a woman that one would want to make happy, not just to avoid hassle, but because her smile lights up the room.

I have to agree that a lot of games, particularly long-running IPs, have long since discarded playability in favor of "fans" jerking it to lore bloat in online discussions. Which I despise. These are games, not religions. But "fans" act like these books are holy texts that it's badwrongfun not to obey as dogma. It's led me to pretty much writeoff most of the hobby and, ironically (and I hate it), focus my efforts toward prose fiction and video games.

I'm currently trying to write ttrpg material. I'm always thinking about how to make material that is actually relevant to players and not just a hack fantasy writer jerking it to irrelevant factoids (i.e. lore). I find myself constantly changing my mind and never being truly satisfied, and quite frankly I think that's a good thing. I'll never be perfect and I have to accept that. Game designers aren't prophets and shouldn't be treated like prophets.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 05, 2023, 07:09:03 PM
I'm currently trying to write ttrpg material. I'm always thinking about how to make material that is actually relevant to players and not just a hack fantasy writer jerking it to irrelevant factoids (i.e. lore). I find myself constantly changing my mind and never being truly satisfied, and quite frankly I think that's a good thing. I'll never be perfect and I have to accept that. Game designers aren't prophets and shouldn't be treated like prophets.

For the most part,  at the level I operate at, folks prize authenticity.

For example, suppose you are interested in writing a modest player's handbook.  Then write up what you actually used in your campaign as that player's handbook. Reserve a small amount of the word count to explain why you did what you did. So while in terms of mechanics, it may not be that distinct, it also reflects you and the decisions you made. Folks like that and they like supporting fellow gamers when they go the extra mile to polish up their notes into something usable.

And best of all you don't have to debate the theory because it is based on material you used that was part of a successful campaign you ran.  The main challenge is understanding and explaining your assumptions tersely so the reader knows where you are coming from. I have gotten very little static about tacking on a skill system to OD&D because I clearly explain why it is there.

It is not there to "fix" OD&D. It is there because players while trashing my setting what to do things other than spellcasting and combat to realize their plans. That they want to be better at these things. So hence a skill system for OD&D.
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/MW%20Majestic%20Fantasy%20Basic%20RPG%20Rev%2010.pdf

Hope that helps.