..and yet PbtA influenced lots of authors and games since it's creation, from Year Zero engine to OSR and even 5E (see "success with a cost" in the DMG). One thinks if a design is so shit it should be ignored, and not inspiring other games. 

Anyway, that's besides the point. Love or hate PbtA and OSR, both are equally insignifcant in face of official D&D. Ergo, your argument of popularity is moot.

Quote from: Fheredin on May 28, 2023, 02:55:58 PM

Quote from: Itachi on May 28, 2023, 12:03:21 PM
Also, I find it a little weird seeing the Forge and it's offspring criticized when talking about playability, which I agree is the most important atribute in a RPG (and what makes me appreciate OSR too). See, Forgite games always prioritized playability first and foremost: Fiasco, Sorcerer, My Life with Master, Dogs in the Vineyard, The Mountain Witch, Don't Rest Your Head, Lady Blackbird, Apocalypse World, Blades in the Dark, etc, etc. are as much about playability as any OSR game.

Where I DO see the criticism valid is for things like Vampire the Masquerade or those high concept 90s games that presented super cool premises but had everybody scratching their heads saying "okay but... what do I do with this?" Like Everway, Continuum, Unknown Armies, Gurps Transhuman Space, Noumenon, etc.

I suspect this is mostly politics speaking. To say that Forge designers are strongly associated with Wokeness and politically excused misanthropy is an understatement.

Yeah, makes sense.

QuoteAll I really want is freedom. The freedom to criticize the Forge Alumni (and the majority of the industry's convention circuit) for selling their creative souls in exchange for influence and position. The freedom to use mechanics which aren't based off D20. The freedom to make a game which doesn't use D&D gameplay loops. The freedom to talk in abstract patterns and long trends of the market. The freedom to make a game which doesn't work just for the sake of seeing what will happen. Apparently this combination makes me some sort of ronin who doesn't belong anywhere.

Such a clear and unbiased vision about the hobby, devoid of demagogy or one-true-wayisms, is a rare thing in these virtual halls. Hats off to you good sir. You're not a ronin, but a wise old man at the mountain.

If we're talking popularity, wasn't V:TM the second most played game in the world at one point? I don't know if the stats still exist, but it certainly seemed like it in the early 00s.

Quote from: Itachi on May 29, 2023, 12:31:13 PM
..and yet PbtA influenced lots of authors and games since it's creation, from Year Zero engine to OSR and even 5E (see "success with a cost" in the DMG). One thinks if a design is so shit it should be ignored, and not inspiring other games. 

The defining factor of PbtA, it's statistically unsound model of "failure is effectively impossible and random consequences happen each and every time you try to do something" has not been adopted by anyone who knows how game design works.

Quote from: Itachi on May 29, 2023, 12:31:13 PM
Anyway, that's besides the point. Love or hate PbtA and OSR, both are equally insignifcant in face of official D&D. Ergo, your argument of popularity is moot.

Still shit, however you look at it.
From basic premise to execution, PbtA is only good as a negative example: look at it and do the opposite, then quite probably you'll have something good.

I'm not a fan of PbtA games, but they do come up pretty frequently at another board I visit, and many people there (#NotAll) seem to like them and play them regularly (others still hate them, but still). My general impression of PbtA is that most of the criticism about them in this forum comes down to them being caught up as part of the feud many people here seem to have with the Forge. Which makes that criticism exaggerated due to that bias. But I'm not sure that they're as "unplayed" as some here like to claim.

I dislike the Forge's mentality and its legacy, but mostly because I think most of the ideas spawned there by Ron Edwards and others were fairly harmful to the hobby and stink of elitism. Nevertheless, I don't dislike PbtA because of the Forge, I dislike PbtA games because they're so narrowly focused on emulating very narrow aspects of a genre (and often just the stereotypical aspects of the genre). This focus is often the reason why people enjoy these games - they do pretty much one thing. I'm not sure how you can really sustain a campaign of play centered on stereotypical genre play. I much prefer game systems which are less prescriptive about exactly how you engage with them as well (I dislike playbooks). Instead, I prefer descriptive mechanics that describe resolution of actions that the players take rather than relying on a playbook.

I dislike most story games for the same reason. They're essentially only good for one-shots with an extremely narrow focus. Why learn a system just to play a single game that lasts a couple hours and has no real hope of anything longer-term? In general, I wish the RPG hobby would produce less half-finished games (where there is pretty much just a dice mechanic and a bunch of hand-waiving and "vibes" for the rest of the game). I just have no use for that, I could deliver the same thing without paying money.

Edit: removing stuff intended for another thread.

Quote from: Itachi on May 29, 2023, 12:34:12 PM

Quote from: Fheredin on May 28, 2023, 02:55:58 PM

Quote from: Itachi on May 28, 2023, 12:03:21 PM
Also, I find it a little weird seeing the Forge and it's offspring criticized when talking about playability, which I agree is the most important atribute in a RPG (and what makes me appreciate OSR too). See, Forgite games always prioritized playability first and foremost: Fiasco, Sorcerer, My Life with Master, Dogs in the Vineyard, The Mountain Witch, Don't Rest Your Head, Lady Blackbird, Apocalypse World, Blades in the Dark, etc, etc. are as much about playability as any OSR game.

Where I DO see the criticism valid is for things like Vampire the Masquerade or those high concept 90s games that presented super cool premises but had everybody scratching their heads saying "okay but... what do I do with this?" Like Everway, Continuum, Unknown Armies, Gurps Transhuman Space, Noumenon, etc.

I suspect this is mostly politics speaking. To say that Forge designers are strongly associated with Wokeness and politically excused misanthropy is an understatement.

Yeah, makes sense.

QuoteAll I really want is freedom. The freedom to criticize the Forge Alumni (and the majority of the industry's convention circuit) for selling their creative souls in exchange for influence and position. The freedom to use mechanics which aren't based off D20. The freedom to make a game which doesn't use D&D gameplay loops. The freedom to talk in abstract patterns and long trends of the market. The freedom to make a game which doesn't work just for the sake of seeing what will happen. Apparently this combination makes me some sort of ronin who doesn't belong anywhere.

Such a clear and unbiased vision about the hobby, devoid of demagogy or one-true-wayisms, is a rare thing in these virtual halls. Hats off to you good sir. You're not a ronin, but a wise old man at the mountain.

Thank you. I don't suppose that would change anything, though; the trip down the mountain will be necessary soon, and will likely be as short as it will be bloody.

Quote from: Old Aegidius on May 29, 2023, 05:34:14 PM
I dislike the Forge's mentality and its legacy, but mostly because I think most of the ideas spawned there by Ron Edwards and others were fairly harmful to the hobby and stink of elitism. Nevertheless, I don't dislike PbtA because of the Forge, I dislike PbtA games because they're so narrowly focused on emulating very narrow aspects of a genre (and often just the stereotypical aspects of the genre). This focus is often the reason why people enjoy these games - they do pretty much one thing. I'm not sure how you can really sustain a campaign of play centered on stereotypical genre play. I much prefer game systems which are less prescriptive about exactly how you engage with them as well (I dislike playbooks). Instead, I prefer descriptive mechanics that describe resolution of actions that the players take rather than relying on a playbook.

This is something that the average forgie/storygamer doesn't seem to understand: writing a story and playing a game are two different things and have vastly different goals to achieve.
A lot (nearly all, actually) of the design principles used in PbtA are quite good.....if you're a writer and you have to come out with a script or a novel. They're simply wrong when applied to RPGs, for the very simple reason that RPGs are not novels, are not a passive medium, and the "story" is an emergent feature of the act of gaming and not the goal of the game itself.
This is also the main reason that leads me to refuse to call PbtA and derivatives "RPGs": they are storygames, something superficially similar to RPGs but too different in scope, goal and underlying principles to be considered part of the same category.

Quote from: Old Aegidius on May 29, 2023, 05:34:14 PMI don't dislike PbtA because of the Forge, I dislike PbtA games because they're so narrowly focused on emulating very narrow aspects of a genre

Fair. Most PbtA and Forge descendants overall are designed for one-shots or quick campaigns. I understand this can be off-putting for some groups.

Quote(and often just the stereotypical aspects of the genre).

Hmm.. not always true. See, some games don't even pertain to a traditional genre, being explorations of unique premises and situations (like Dogs in the Vineyard), while those that do try to emulate traditional genres usually bring enough interchangeable parts to let the group to give their own spin on things (like the Psychic Maelstrom and custom moves in Apocalypse World). But yeah, some stick to their genres to a T.

QuoteThis focus is often the reason why people enjoy these games - they do pretty much one thing.

That's me. 

QuoteI dislike most story games for the same reason. They're essentially only good for one-shots with an extremely narrow focus. Why learn a system just to play a single game that lasts a couple hours and has no real hope of anything longer-term?

Speaking only for me and my group(s): we play these "specialized" games for the way they gamify their genres/premises, usually 1) guaranteeing we'll be exploring their main themes, and 2) providing tailor-made, thematic rules that are fun to engage and not usually seen in more traditional games.   

That said, we also play more traditional TTRPGs. Though to be fair, we prefer the more "specialized" among those too (like Beyond the Wall, for eg).

Quote from: Fheredin on May 26, 2023, 07:49:27 PM
Gypsy is not a common slur, and there are dozens of channels on that Discord, so even if none of the material was planted, we're still talking about a "troll" spending several hours of work searching for usable material. If it was planted (and I suspect the "Stormforge is Nazi" was) then we are talking about several months of preparation.

This is not the work of a garden variety troll.

What if several months from now there's this big kerfuffle that this forum is wrapped up in. Then someone looks back and finds this:

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 25, 2023, 09:35:39 PM
What a goddamn walking argument for eugenics.

Which of course nobody is going to take seriously right now given the level of clownishness in the exchange from which this comment emerged.

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 25, 2023, 09:35:39 PM

Quote from: Lunamancer on May 25, 2023, 06:44:49 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 25, 2023, 03:04:55 PM
TBH, I can't relate cuz I don't think that adding Attribute and Skill values together is such a hurdle,

Hurdle is your word, not mine. I would describe it as more of an extra step rather than a hurdle. And I don't mind taking extra steps. I do it all the time. I just expect a return on it.

So it's not a "hurdle" (my word, not yours), but you wanna complain about it regardless, despite it being a nonissue

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 28, 2023, 12:28:19 PM

Quote from: Lunamancer on May 27, 2023, 01:52:18 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 27, 2023, 12:34:56 PM
hur·dle
noun
1.
one of a series of upright frames over which athletes in a race must jump.
"a hurdle race"
2.
an obstacle or difficulty.
"there are many hurdles to overcome"

I have a degree in mathematics. A simple addition of two numbers is in no way, on no planet, and in no twisted meaning of any of these words, an obstacle nor a difficulty nor a hurdle for me. You were objectively wrong in your claim that "hurdle" has anything to do with what I said.

You're ability to overcome an obstacle is IRRELEVANT to whether or not that thing is an obstacle, you goddamn fucking imbecile. You're such a moronic fucking retard you don't even know you're making up your own definition for words and attaching significance to other people's posts that isn't there.

Right now, we're probably thinking garden variety troll. A ways down the road when something weird happens, this could end up looking like a pre-meditated plant.

Quote from: Vestragor on May 30, 2023, 08:06:53 AM

Quote from: Old Aegidius on May 29, 2023, 05:34:14 PM
I dislike the Forge's mentality and its legacy, but mostly because I think most of the ideas spawned there by Ron Edwards and others were fairly harmful to the hobby and stink of elitism. Nevertheless, I don't dislike PbtA because of the Forge, I dislike PbtA games because they're so narrowly focused on emulating very narrow aspects of a genre (and often just the stereotypical aspects of the genre). This focus is often the reason why people enjoy these games - they do pretty much one thing. I'm not sure how you can really sustain a campaign of play centered on stereotypical genre play. I much prefer game systems which are less prescriptive about exactly how you engage with them as well (I dislike playbooks). Instead, I prefer descriptive mechanics that describe resolution of actions that the players take rather than relying on a playbook.

This is something that the average forgie/storygamer doesn't seem to understand: writing a story and playing a game are two different things and have vastly different goals to achieve.
A lot (nearly all, actually) of the design principles used in PbtA are quite good.....if you're a writer and you have to come out with a script or a novel. They're simply wrong when applied to RPGs, for the very simple reason that RPGs are not novels, are not a passive medium, and the "story" is an emergent feature of the act of gaming and not the goal of the game itself.
This is also the main reason that leads me to refuse to call PbtA and derivatives "RPGs": they are storygames, something superficially similar to RPGs but too different in scope, goal and underlying principles to be considered part of the same category.

I agree and disagree. RPGs have a lot more passive play than you let on.

While there are a number of scenes where all the characters in a party contribute, that contribution is almost never equally spread. More to the point, it's more common for scenes and dialogues to only involve one PC and an NPC, or two PCs conversing with each other. And, of course, when one player starts to take a turn in combat, the other players wait their turn. I would say that at least 75% of the "game experience" your ordinary player gets playing an ordinary RPG is...listening to an audio drama. And if you're streaming, that's true 100% of the time for listeners.

Consequently, I don't think that conveying a story is a bad goal for an RPG to have. It's arguably the best goal for improving the game because even when you're playing, the bulk of play is passive and the story is the part which has the most potential for sharing after the session is over. Compromising the gameplay while you're actively playing is usually a bridge too far, but making the game's story better is not itself a bad goal.

I admire Vincent Baker for bringing an open source-like methodology to the RPG space, and I generally like the idea of prompting players to do specific worldbuilding tasks when given a cue. I can see flaws in both, but this was a very early implementation of either of these ideas. Some mistakes are to be expected. In this sense, I really like what Apocalypse World represents.

But every time I sit down with the book, I have an immediate and visceral reaction to the design choices of the system. Moves have always disrupted my immersion with how metagamey they can be, and character creation in practically all PbtA games is an exercise in turning fluff into a character. What's worse...I don't think it makes the game's story better. There's no real three act structure baked into the story unless the GM brings it, so really you're bringing everything which doesn't make a story tick.

While I like what the game represents, I despise the game itself for being far too fluffy, and I really believe that most PbtA games out there could be written by ChatGPT.

Quote from: Lunamancer on May 30, 2023, 06:27:07 PM

Quote from: Fheredin on May 26, 2023, 07:49:27 PM
Gypsy is not a common slur, and there are dozens of channels on that Discord, so even if none of the material was planted, we're still talking about a "troll" spending several hours of work searching for usable material. If it was planted (and I suspect the "Stormforge is Nazi" was) then we are talking about several months of preparation.

This is not the work of a garden variety troll.

What if several months from now there's this big kerfuffle that this forum is wrapped up in. Then someone looks back and finds this:

(snip for brevity)


Right now, we're probably thinking garden variety troll. A ways down the road when something weird happens, this could end up looking like a pre-meditated plant.

I interpret the above statement as classic internet edgelording, and you'd have to make a solid case it means otherwise. This group is very inured to controversy. Not so much with the Reddit plush toy people.

Quote from: Lunamancer on May 30, 2023, 06:27:07 PM

Quote from: Fheredin on May 26, 2023, 07:49:27 PM
Gypsy is not a common slur, and there are dozens of channels on that Discord, so even if none of the material was planted, we're still talking about a "troll" spending several hours of work searching for usable material. If it was planted (and I suspect the "Stormforge is Nazi" was) then we are talking about several months of preparation.

This is not the work of a garden variety troll.

What if several months from now there's this big kerfuffle that this forum is wrapped up in. Then someone looks back and finds this:

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 25, 2023, 09:35:39 PM
What a goddamn walking argument for eugenics.

Which of course nobody is going to take seriously right now given the level of clownishness in the exchange from which this comment emerged.

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 25, 2023, 09:35:39 PM

Quote from: Lunamancer on May 25, 2023, 06:44:49 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 25, 2023, 03:04:55 PM
TBH, I can't relate cuz I don't think that adding Attribute and Skill values together is such a hurdle,

Hurdle is your word, not mine. I would describe it as more of an extra step rather than a hurdle. And I don't mind taking extra steps. I do it all the time. I just expect a return on it.

So it's not a "hurdle" (my word, not yours), but you wanna complain about it regardless, despite it being a nonissue

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 28, 2023, 12:28:19 PM

Quote from: Lunamancer on May 27, 2023, 01:52:18 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 27, 2023, 12:34:56 PM
hur·dle
noun
1.
one of a series of upright frames over which athletes in a race must jump.
"a hurdle race"
2.
an obstacle or difficulty.
"there are many hurdles to overcome"

I have a degree in mathematics. A simple addition of two numbers is in no way, on no planet, and in no twisted meaning of any of these words, an obstacle nor a difficulty nor a hurdle for me. You were objectively wrong in your claim that "hurdle" has anything to do with what I said.

You're ability to overcome an obstacle is IRRELEVANT to whether or not that thing is an obstacle, you goddamn fucking imbecile. You're such a moronic fucking retard you don't even know you're making up your own definition for words and attaching significance to other people's posts that isn't there.

Right now, we're probably thinking garden variety troll. A ways down the road when something weird happens, this could end up looking like a pre-meditated plant.

My usage of the terms "IMO" and "hurdle" were all part of an elaborate plot to get you into an extended multiple post back and forward semantic argument (which are totally not nitpicking) to make a big deal about toss away terms that were completely beside the point. My work here is done, but my cover has been blown. Time to cook up a different strategy to troll these boards by using innocuous terminology in my posts.

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 30, 2023, 08:27:37 PM
My usage of the terms "IMO" and "hurdle" were all part of an elaborate plot to get you into an extended multiple post back and forward semantic argument (which are totally not nitpicking) to make a big deal about toss away terms that were completely beside the point. My work here is done, but my cover has been blown. Time to cook up a different strategy to troll these boards by using innocuous terminology in my posts.

I gave up back on page 3....you are much more dedicated to your craft, sir.

Although I will chime in a bit about all the Dungeonworld garbage...imagine thinking you're improving role playing games by making a narrativist version of D&D that is harder to play and comprehend. Those Forge clowns literally just cannot admit they could only do what people have done five seconds after D&D was released and simply reimplement it, they keep acting like they're visionaries.

To be honest, I don't hate story games.  They have their place.  When I was part of a regular group, if we did not have a full crew, a story game one shot or mini-arc was a perfect fit. 

If I had to pick out a single game design flaw, it would be trying to hide the numbers with fluff.  Fate, Fudge, and Marvel FASERIP are guilty of this.  I don't want to have to constantly look up tables or memorize wordlists when a simple numerical value will do.