Quote from: Vestragor on May 22, 2023, 04:31:32 PM

Quote from: PencilBoy99 on May 22, 2023, 03:42:06 PM
Aren't PBtA and Blades in the Dark games pretty popular?

On reddit ? Sure, nobody plays anything else.
In the real world ? Probably all of PbtA combined reaches about 10% of D&D's player base.

LOL. It wouldn't get anywhere near that. Maybe 0.1%.

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 22, 2023, 04:50:33 PM


I'm also firmly on the camp that "min-maxing"—to the degree that that is arguably a "bad" thing—is 100% on the system and not the player. If someone else making an optimized character really bothers you that much there's either something wrong with you, or the system must be so broken it needs to be fixed. And no, the "problem" player adjusting their build decisions to fit someone else's undefined and completely subjective and arbitrary opinion about what is or is not acceptable as a character build isn't a solution.

Well, I would certainly agree that the problem is mainly with the system. Again, that's part of Bad Design.
But of course, there's a certain kind of player who will strongly favor point-buy, and utterly despise games that don't let them min-max, because maximizing their character through cheap tricks from meticulous reading and gaming of the system is part of the key of their perception of success, which is mainly based on making characters that are just better than anyone else's.

The bad design of the min-maxing point-buy system will allow those players to behave badly, where a well designed system will limit their ability to do so.

I'm on the Dragonbane discord - so bunch of Swedes & Americans, not D&D, not OSR, not Storygame. When people talk about what to adapt for Dragonbane, or what non-Free League campaigns they're running with Dragonbane, people (not me!) bring up stuff like Stonehell and Barrowmaze all the time, along with a few 5e 3pp things like Dungeons of Drakkenheim. No WoTC 5e, no Storygame stuff of course - the closest to that would be Forbidden Lands stuff from FL. Given that Dragonbane isn't D&D-based at all, never mind OSR, I'm very struck by the reach of the OSR into gaming as it's actually played.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 27, 2023, 02:20:38 AM

Well this is just fundamentally wrong. Look at details on social media; both OSR and Storygamers brag about buying tons of games; but then look at the ones playing it: you'll see that most of the people who buy or talk about Storygames don't ever actually brag about playing it, and the minority who do appear to have mostly one-shots.
On the other hand, the OSR is full of accounts of people playing games, and of playing very long-term campaigns.

Well, to be fair to the Storygames, you aren't wrong, but most Storygames aren't designed for long-term play.  Because the designer has a very narrow view of what the game should be about, and then makes the game ruthlessly pursue that to the exclusion of all else.  Which means if you really like that X, whatever it is, then you can have some fun in a few short games with it.  The problem is that most people don't like X that much relative to all the other things they could be doing.  I like broccoli.  I don't want to eat it exclusively for days on end. 

Which means that the design issue is less about the craft of putting the game together than the design judgment of what the game should be doing.

It's also in no way an accident that Burning Wheel is the most traditional of the most known story games and also one suitable to at least mid-term play.  It's pretty ruthless about its core focus, but then it piles layers and layers of stuff on it that at least resembles a traditional game.  I may have broccoli every session, but darn it, it will at least be cooked in a bunch of different ways that are appealing.  It's only later when you think, "broccoli with teriyaki sauce is great, but it's still broccoli," that it wears thin.

Quote from: Mr. Ordinary, Esq. on May 26, 2023, 11:09:57 PM
From your experience with Savage Worlds, what exactly constitutes an interesting character, or evena well rounded one? Might help me narrow down where I'm headed in this debate.

I like that card trick, good way to focus on the character concept when using a point buy system.

Generally, the best trait of Savage Worlds is that character creation is so fast and easy you don't need the book for most of it. I know when I was actively playing it I could draft a Novice character without consulting the book except for Edges, Hindrances, and Equipment.

That said, I think the trick to get a good Savage Worlds character is to start with a Major Hindrance. It forces you to start with what your character is bad at, which makes the contrast of what your character is good at (and brings to the party) and how your character should roleplay obvious all at once. Savage Worlds does have some character creation flaws--it can produce vanilla characters if you aren't already experienced at roleplay--but for being so lightweight, it's hard not to forgive the faults.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 27, 2023, 02:20:38 AM

Quote from: Fheredin on May 22, 2023, 02:19:03 PM
I hate to be blunt, but OSR is barely played more than Forge games relative to D&D.

Well this is just fundamentally wrong. Look at details on social media; both OSR and Storygamers brag about buying tons of games; but then look at the ones playing it: you'll see that most of the people who buy or talk about Storygames don't ever actually brag about playing it, and the minority who do appear to have mostly one-shots.
On the other hand, the OSR is full of accounts of people playing games, and of playing very long-term campaigns.

Do you have any earthly idea how many robots are on these platforms? OSR is probably one of the RPG market's larger side niches--statistics are really hard to come by, but I would eyeball it as no smaller than Call of C'thulu and all its derivatives--but that still means its pretty small compared to WotC D&D. OSR could be several times larger than Forge games and it would still have roughly the same position compared to D&D (and I think that's being generous for Forge games; OSR sees active development and most Forge games have either gone their own way or haven't seen development in a decade.)

The internet by its nature favors the active participants, and active participants like obscure stuff almost as much as they like memes. You have to balance your interpretation of the data with this in mind.

Quote from: Lunamancer on May 26, 2023, 09:27:43 PM
*snip totally not nitpicky, sentence by sentence break down reply of my post*

Whatever you need to tell yourself, dude. You're a nitpicking imbecile literally arguing about terminology and inventing deeper meanings to people's choice of terms that are completely immaterial to whatever is being said. Then making definitive statements about things while denying that you're making them.

WHO GIVES A FUCK if I used the expression "IMO"? Seriously! Adding the online acronym "IMO" to a statement means next to nothing. I've seen people argue that it's redundant to do so, but here you feel the need to bring it up, then when I accuse you of nitpicking and mention ANOTHER word ("hurdle") as an example of nitpicking you have to go bring up "IMO" again like you're obsessed with it.

But somehow I'm the one responsible for it and you're not really "nitpicking", you're just helpfully policing people's use of terms and making an issue about them, like it means anything. Just like Attributes+Skills is not really a "hurdle" for you, it's just an extra step that supposedly brings nothing as a payoff for the effort (totally not a fact statement), which is totally not something that could be described as an obstacle or difficulty.

hur·dle
noun
1.
one of a series of upright frames over which athletes in a race must jump.
"a hurdle race"
2.
an obstacle or difficulty.
"there are many hurdles to overcome"

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 27, 2023, 12:34:56 PM

Quote from: Lunamancer on May 26, 2023, 09:27:43 PM
*snip totally not nitpicky, sentence by sentence break down reply of my post*

hur·dle
noun
1.
one of a series of upright frames over which athletes in a race must jump.
"a hurdle race"
2.
an obstacle or difficulty.
"there are many hurdles to overcome"

I have a degree in mathematics. A simple addition of two numbers is in no way, on no planet, and in no twisted meaning of any of these words, an obstacle nor a difficulty nor a hurdle for me. You were objectively wrong in your claim that "hurdle" has anything to do with what I said. And that after I informed you of this, that you insist on continuing to use it. Your insistence on putting that word in my mouth makes you disrespectful and liar. So, sorry, but you don't get to claim you were taking a position of humility where you admit you're wrong, because you clearly can't. And you don't get to accuse me of being unfair to you in any way at all, nitpicking or otherwise, when you deliberately and dishonestly substitute words with different meanings.

  Indeed, playability matters. It is like that old saw, "the proof of the pudding is in the tasting." Results, not theory, matters.

My favorite personal testament to this is the AD&D 2e Punching & Wrestling Table. It. just. works. AND it's fun! And it's concise enough to copy pasta onto a GM Screen!  All the theory crafting, manifestoes, spreadsheets, & matrices fell supine, impotent before Actual Play and Desirable Results.

And it did it all in a dense table with a few paragraphs on how to use it. At this point I find it my gold standard of sublime elegance for a very murky and troubled RPG design space of hand-to-hand, (typically) non-lethal combat. People read it and laughed, yet when I ask, "But have you try it?" their oft refrain is "No. But it shouldn't work."

Well experience is a better teacher. Speak less, try more, & pay attention to the results. 

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 27, 2023, 02:20:38 AM

Quote from: Fheredin on May 22, 2023, 02:19:03 PM
I hate to be blunt, but OSR is barely played more than Forge games relative to D&D.

Well this is just fundamentally wrong. Look at details on social media; both OSR and Storygamers brag about buying tons of games; but then look at the ones playing it: you'll see that most of the people who buy or talk about Storygames don't ever actually brag about playing it, and the minority who do appear to have mostly one-shots.
On the other hand, the OSR is full of accounts of people playing games, and of playing very long-term campaigns.

While I find this point moot, various sources suggest that forge-inspired games (like PbtA and Blades in the Dark) are getting played as much or more than OSR games. Examples:

1. https://www.dramadice.com/blog/the-most-played-tabletop-rpgs-in-2021/

Notice there aren't OSR games in there. 


2. https://www.drivethrurpg.com/top_100.php

Notice the "forgites" Blades in the Dark and Avatar: the Last Airbender on the list. This one has OSR products too.


TL;DR: Fheredin's point stands. Bringing the argument of popularity as a qualifier is moot for anything besides official D&D. Like Dodgeball players bragging their sport is more played worldwide than Wife Carrying (yes, it's a sport).

Also, I find it a little weird seeing the Forge and it's offspring criticized when talking about playability, which I agree is the most important atribute in a RPG (and what makes me appreciate OSR too). See, Forgite games always prioritized playability first and foremost: Fiasco, Sorcerer, My Life with Master, Dogs in the Vineyard, The Mountain Witch, Don't Rest Your Head, Lady Blackbird, Apocalypse World, Blades in the Dark, etc, etc. are as much about playability as any OSR game.

Where I DO see the criticism valid is for things like Vampire the Masquerade or those high concept 90s games that presented super cool premises but had everybody scratching their heads saying "okay but... what do I do with this?" Like Everway, Continuum, Unknown Armies, Gurps Transhuman Space, Noumenon, etc.

Quote from: Lunamancer on May 27, 2023, 01:52:18 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 27, 2023, 12:34:56 PM

Quote from: Lunamancer on May 26, 2023, 09:27:43 PM
*snip totally not nitpicky, sentence by sentence break down reply of my post*

hur·dle
noun
1.
one of a series of upright frames over which athletes in a race must jump.
"a hurdle race"
2.
an obstacle or difficulty.
"there are many hurdles to overcome"

I have a degree in mathematics. A simple addition of two numbers is in no way, on no planet, and in no twisted meaning of any of these words, an obstacle nor a difficulty nor a hurdle for me. You were objectively wrong in your claim that "hurdle" has anything to do with what I said. And that after I informed you of this, that you insist on continuing to use it. Your insistence on putting that word in my mouth makes you disrespectful and liar. So, sorry, but you don't get to claim you were taking a position of humility where you admit you're wrong, because you clearly can't. And you don't get to accuse me of being unfair to you in any way at all, nitpicking or otherwise, when you deliberately and dishonestly substitute words with different meanings.

You're ability to overcome an obstacle is IRRELEVANT to whether or not that thing is an obstacle, you goddamn fucking imbecile. You're such a moronic fucking retard you don't even know you're making up your own definition for words and attaching significance to other people's posts that isn't there. But somehow it's other people who're putting words in your mouth and "lying". What a goddamn walking argument for eugenics.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 27, 2023, 02:26:04 AM
But of course, there's a certain kind of player who will strongly favor point-buy, and utterly despise games that don't let them min-max, because maximizing their character through cheap tricks from meticulous reading and gaming of the system is part of the key of their perception of success, which is mainly based on making characters that are just better than anyone else's.

A few comments.

1) Min-maxers can indeed be annoying, but no more annoying that low-interest players. At least min-maxers have to learn the rules well in order to min-max. How many people prefer making characters with rolls and limited choices, because they just turn up and roll dice when prodded with a stick?


2) There's a distinct kind of player that enjoys points build that are not min-maxers, although they share attributes of them. I'd call these people something like fine tuners, or efficiency nerds. I am such a person myself.

My joy is learning rule systems and then building characters that allow me to represent my character concept to an absolute perfect degree. If I'm playing a cool spy, I'm the coolest fucking spy that ever spied something. If I'm a bare knuckle fighter, some knuckles are getting fought.

The differences between this and a min-maxer is intention and restraint.

The intent of a Min-maxer is to "win" the game, at any cost. They don't give a shit what they play as, as long as it's broken. they'll crank out a cookie cutter build from a website, that thousands have already made, just to "win." My intent is to create the most successful emulation of my concept as mechanically possible. This includes intentional flaws.

Likewise min-maxers have no restraint. If there's  "win" button, they will push it till it breaks. They don't care about theme, group harmony, or GM sanity. Whereas if I, say, create the world's strongest man, and see a way I could cheaply make him the world's strongest man who can take 17 actions per round, I will not take it. To do so would be thematically incorrect AND would be so broken that the GM will drop the game or kill me off. Restraint.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 27, 2023, 02:26:04 AM
The bad design of the min-maxing point-buy system will allow those players to behave badly, where a well designed system will limit their ability to do so.

This seems a little authoritarian, and condescending. As I said earlier, at least a min-maxer cares enough to min-max, even if at the extremes they can be an annoyance. Rather than tie their hands with locked-down systems, I prefer to only ban the outright broken rules, then let them run wild as long as there's an actual character attached to the stats.

Worse case scenario I can just eject a truly toxic player. Why limit the creative/engaged of character building complexity?

Quote from: Itachi on May 28, 2023, 12:03:21 PM
Also, I find it a little weird seeing the Forge and it's offspring criticized when talking about playability, which I agree is the most important atribute in a RPG (and what makes me appreciate OSR too). See, Forgite games always prioritized playability first and foremost: Fiasco, Sorcerer, My Life with Master, Dogs in the Vineyard, The Mountain Witch, Don't Rest Your Head, Lady Blackbird, Apocalypse World, Blades in the Dark, etc, etc. are as much about playability as any OSR game.

Where I DO see the criticism valid is for things like Vampire the Masquerade or those high concept 90s games that presented super cool premises but had everybody scratching their heads saying "okay but... what do I do with this?" Like Everway, Continuum, Unknown Armies, Gurps Transhuman Space, Noumenon, etc.

I suspect this is mostly politics speaking. To say that Forge designers are strongly associated with Wokeness and politically excused misanthropy is an understatement.

All I really want is freedom. The freedom to criticize the Forge Alumni (and the majority of the industry's convention circuit) for selling their creative souls in exchange for influence and position. The freedom to use mechanics which aren't based off D20. The freedom to make a game which doesn't use D&D gameplay loops. The freedom to talk in abstract patterns and long trends of the market. The freedom to make a game which doesn't work just for the sake of seeing what will happen. Apparently this combination makes me some sort of ronin who doesn't belong anywhere.

The only part of "good design" i would cite offhand from dnd is the treasure-monster treasure type-random dungeon/treasure generation sequence, which is a game for me on the gm side of the screen as well, and very engaging in itself. The marvel FASERIP game's concept of power or tier ranking in opposed roll interaction is a point of good design i would cite. Pendragon is a good design in another aspect, that being pendragon knows what it wants to do and laser focuses on that alone. Some would call that bad design because it leaves you floundering if you try to go off the rails but i like having everything outside of knights up to me to define with knights as the standard of comparison.

I consider D6 system to be the best designed game ever in that it does what it should consistently and quickly, its failing is lack of detail/flavor, which if you filled in, would preclude the ruleset from adapting as readily to any genre.

A game that requires referencing a dvd is poor design, i had owned at one point some dinky potc game where you race pirate ships and have to reference the dvd to complete minigame challenges after each move...novel at first but tiresome very quickly and the whole thing would have been better if you replaced the dvd with a deck of cards or a random table.

Quote from: Itachi on May 28, 2023, 11:43:56 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 27, 2023, 02:20:38 AM

Quote from: Fheredin on May 22, 2023, 02:19:03 PM
I hate to be blunt, but OSR is barely played more than Forge games relative to D&D.

Well this is just fundamentally wrong. Look at details on social media; both OSR and Storygamers brag about buying tons of games; but then look at the ones playing it: you'll see that most of the people who buy or talk about Storygames don't ever actually brag about playing it, and the minority who do appear to have mostly one-shots.
On the other hand, the OSR is full of accounts of people playing games, and of playing very long-term campaigns.

While I find this point moot, various sources suggest that forge-inspired games (like PbtA and Blades in the Dark) are getting played as much or more than OSR games. Examples:

1. https://www.dramadice.com/blog/the-most-played-tabletop-rpgs-in-2021/

Notice there aren't OSR games in there. 


2. https://www.drivethrurpg.com/top_100.php

Notice the "forgites" Blades in the Dark and Avatar: the Last Airbender on the list. This one has OSR products too.


TL;DR: Fheredin's point stands. Bringing the argument of popularity as a qualifier is moot for anything besides official D&D. Like Dodgeball players bragging their sport is more played worldwide than Wife Carrying (yes, it's a sport).

Also notice the 0.82% of PbtA in the "% of played games" table ---> nobody plays that.
And also notice the "any edition" between brackets ----> nobody plays that in any form.

The RPG market is a bit unusual, it's largely composed by experienced people with a very keen sense of what works and what doesn't.
When you have games like Masks that are acclaimed as masterpieces by the PbtA crowd (for the unknowing: Masks is a "superhero" game where no superpower is ever described in the whole rulebook and that doesn't have rules to create superpowers), the logical result is to start doubting the actual competence of the PbtA crowd and the real value of PbtA games as a whole.....and once you have actual data to pick from, the doubt vanishes: PbtA is pure shit, and vastly recognized as that by the hobby.