Quote from: Daddy Warpig;623796Simming is thus the Storygame equivalent of "roleplaying". (Or rather, many Storygame processes are indistinguishable from simming.) Of course, there exist sim-RPG hybrids. In fact all Storygames could be considered simming/roleplaying hybrids, because of the introduction of rules to an essentially freeform activity.

Howboutcha actually cite some sims which actually use storygame-esque mechanics? I have never seen any.

Quote from: Warthur;623922When'd I do that, bub?

When did you define a mechanic as narrative or not? In this post right here.

In a response to the exact same question I was answering.

Quote from: Warthur;623924How could I possibly be so stupid to imagine that someone who writes little manifestos about the best tactics to use against the storygamers in the War Of Ideas might be getting pretentiously militant?

Which is to say "Yes, Jasyn, you never said anything like that. I was mistaken."

I think this conversation has ceased to be fruitful. So I'm not going to continue it.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;623879I'm not sure it's an "of course", because every time I point out that RPG's are not Storytelling, I get a lot of static and contradiction. Not sure why, but the assertion that those two endeavors are exactly identical is common, and wrong.

Hence my desire to point it out, especially when I see people claiming the opposite is true.

Are they claiming the opposite is true, is it more complicated than that?

You're saying that storytelling is not the full and only purpose of RPGs. Some people are telling you that they like the story angle of RPGs, whether that's a White Wolfy GM-predefined plot or a traditional "this is what happened in retrospect, oh look, it makes an interesting narrative" sort of story. There is room for both parties to be right if you look.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;623939When did you define a mechanic as narrative or not? In this post right here.

In a response to the exact same question I was answering.

Ok, I follow you now. I fail to see how it undermines my wider point.

QuoteWhich is to say "Yes, Jasyn, you never said anything like that. I was mistaken."

I think this conversation has ceased to be fruitful. So I'm not going to continue it.

Oh dear, is Socrates sad that the dialogue isn't going as planned?

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;623915Then they're wrong. Wrong mediums, wrong endeavor.

And that blog post (which also was posted here, in a couple of places) explains why.

RPG's are not storytelling.

If it's the wrong medium and wrong endeavour then plenty of people of my acquaintance who are tickled pink by the stories they have told in their traditional RPG campaigns must be mistaken. They can't have possibly succeeded to the extent to which they claim to have succeeded, because they were using the wrong tool the for job to begin with.

Maybe they're lying. Maybe they're delusional.

Maybe they're brain damaged.

Quote from: CRKrueger;623916"RPGs are not storytelling" is correct.
"RPGs cannot contain storytelling" is incorrect.

Well, Daddy Warpig's blog post concludes, You don't roleplay in a storygame. And you don't "tell stories" by playing an RPG. It's that simple.  That sounds more like the latter to me.  

Purely as a matter of vocabulary, there is a long history of established usage of RPG games saying that they tell stories, including D&D.  

Quote from: CRKrueger;623916When I am storytelling I am, by definition, thinking of my character's actions in a larger context then IC.  In other words, the act of narrative creation is not the act of Roleplaying.  Standing and fighting despite assured death to let other's escape is IC Roleplaying.  Choosing to do it because my character wants to go to Valhalla and have his legend live forever is IC Roleplaying. Choosing to do it because I'm picturing 13th warrior with my character as Buliwyf is Storytelling and not Roleplaying.

I think there's probably some interesting stuff to delve into here about player motivations.  But what you're saying is that when a player says "I fight to the death" - that might be roleplaying or might be a completely different activity, depending on exactly what the player was thinking.  

I would say that if there is no external test to distinguish, then it's a big can of worms to say that these are totally different activities.

Quote from: jhkim;623950It’s that simple. That sounds more like the latter to me.

EDIT: Right, let's clarify.

The purpose of a narrative mechanic is to implement the narrative stance. Not all metagame mechanics are narrative, but all narrative mechanics are metagame. The mechanic implements narrating as an author would, not playing in character.

As a player, narrating as an author is not roleplaying. Period.

The purpose of a narrative game system, a system mostly or entirely of such mechanics, is the same. Therefore, that system doesn't implement or intend playing in character.

Can people RP in narrative systems? Sure. As they can in Risk or other board games. But that's not what the game is about and, when describing and defining mechanics, is useless.

Can people "narrate" as a player in a traditional RPG? Sure, it's called "3rd person" description. The critical point is, they are limited. They can't edit the world freely, by definition. The GM has final say.

They are narrating in a roleplaying environment. More power to them, but that doesn't make the RPG or the mechanics thereof a narrative system.

By intent and design, you don't roleplay in a narrative system and you don't tell stories in an RPG.

That's what I meant, and I stand by it.

This is descriptive. It doesn't matter to me if you RP in a narrative system or narrate your character in an RPG. I agree with Krueger's general "don't care what happens in other people's minds" statement.

Also, you should be applauded for taking the time to read my blog post. That was beyond any reasonable expectation.

Quote from: jhkim;623950Purely as a matter of vocabulary, there is a long history of established usage of RPG games saying that they tell stories, including D&D.

They're wrong. Roleplaying games do not "tell stories". Not in any exact sense. Here are three possible definitions of "telling a story":

1.) A sequence of events, related to another person after the fact. (As in telling your friend about how your day went).
2.) A piece of fiction, written according to dramatic structures.
3.) Campfire storytelling, or similar activities going back centuries.

The second is right out, as roleplaying isn't authoring a story. At best, as a player you're describing the actions of your character. (Whatever your state of mind is.)

An author controls every character. They decide their appearance (carefully crafted to evoke an emotional response in the reader). They decide what the character will do, in such a way as to create a plot.

Neither GM's nor players control very single character wholly, in an RPG. (To attempt to do so is "railroading.")

Writing a novel (for example) also means dealing with point of view, vivid description through prose, three-act plot structure, character motivations, action blocking, the sudden-yet-inevitable betrayals, evocative character descriptions, scene pacing, novel pacing, chapter shaping, and all the rest. These aren't processes of RPG gameplay.

All of those are done with the reader in mind. You are trying to evoke images and emotions. You write and rewrite passages, trying to hone a paragraph so it achieves its intended goal. Then you let beta readers, agents, line editors, and editors have their whack at your prose.

Roleplaying is about the gameplay. Writing fiction is about carefully crafting prose to achieve a specific result.

It's a wholly different process and goal, and only people who are overlooking what novel or short story writing is could claim they're the same.

The other two definitions can be discarded, on similar but different objections.

The act of playing a roleplaying game isn't any of those three. It has similarities to all of them, but isn't identical. Since it isn't identical, it isn't the same.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;6239761.) A sequence of events, related to another person after the fact. (As in telling your friend about how your day went).
2.) A piece of fiction, written according to dramatic structures.
3.) Campfire storytelling, or similar activities going back centuries.

So improv theatre can't tell a story? Simming can't result in stories? Storygames can't result in stories?

"Storytelling is the conveying of events in words, images, and sounds, often by improvisation or embellishment...Crucial elements of stories and storytelling include plot, characters, and narrative point of view."

Quote from: Mistwell;623978"Storytelling is the conveying of events in words, images, and sounds, often by improvisation or embellishment...Crucial elements of stories and storytelling include plot, characters, and narrative point of view."

A much better definition, and one a lot of tabletop RPGs can potentially fit. (It doesn't say everyone needs to have a narrative point of view...)

Quote from: CRKrueger;623912Not sure exactly what you're referring to, sounds strawmanish, who said something similar to what you're referring to?

I think I'm agreeing with a statement you made; at any rate, several others have said things along the lines of

one optional metagame mechanic does not make a game not an RPG

and

the discussion seems more productive in identifying mechanics than in labeling games

Quote from: jhkim;623950I would say that if there is no external test to distinguish, then it's a big can of worms to say that these are totally different activities.

If I tell you something that later turns out to be incorrect, was I mistaken or was I telling a lie?  Will you ever be sure?  It's internal, you really can't.

No one is going to know exactly why I said what I said and why my character did what I did.  Twofish and I can sit down at the table and play D&D, have an entirely different mental process going on, yet not look that different.

Compare with DW, where again, we all look like we're doing the same thing, the only difference is now Twofish, Anon, etc have specific mechanics to enforce their preferred mental gaming process, mechanics which actively impede or outright render mine impossible.

Those are not the same things.  

You can't have it both ways.  

You can't claim System Matters and design according to that philosophy and then say System Doesn't Matter we all do the same thing.

Quote from: Phillip;623993I think I'm agreeing with a statement you made; at any rate, several others have said things along the lines of

one optional metagame mechanic does not make a game not an RPG

and

the discussion seems more productive in identifying mechanics than in labeling games

Yeah, I can see that, I'm not looking for the MPAA or RIAA here, it's just that it seems a little...odd that a lot of narrative games, which specifically include narrative systems to better enable narrative play, because, after all, System Matters, aren't marketing the strengths of their systems, ie. narrative play.

Quote from: Warthur;623979A much better definition, and one a lot of tabletop RPGs can potentially fit. (It doesn't say everyone needs to have a narrative point of view...)

That's a definition of storytelling, not story games.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;623915Then they're wrong. Wrong mediums, wrong endeavor.

And that blog post (which also was posted here, in a couple of places) explains why.

RPG's are not storytelling.

I agree. Having story-like, or storytelling-like qualities doesn't make rpgs storytelling, any more than a Tanuki is a raccoon or a dog.

Quote from: Lynn;624027I agree. Having story-like, or storytelling-like qualities doesn't make rpgs storytelling, any more than a Tanuki is a raccoon or a dog.

Exactly my point.

Caveats:

1.) I'm giving a technical description of the medium, not a conversational one.

2.) When dealing with people who have no idea what roleplaying really is, it can be helpful to say "Roleplaying is communal storytelling". You're teaching by analogy, trying to convey that roleplaying:

A.) Deals with fictional worlds.
B.) Takes place in your imagination.
C.) Involves people describing situations and activities.

And so forth. These are aspects of the "campfire" kind of storytelling, but which also hold for RPG's. Evoking "storytelling" is a compact way of conveying that information.

A game, in its introductory "What is Roleplaying" section can say "this game is about storytelling", because it's a conversational definition meant to help educate the uninitiated.

But when you're talking about defining what roleplaying games actually are, and what characteristics they share with other media, and where they differ from other media, that definition is inadequate. (And wrong.)