Quote from: Daddy Warpig;623390Thanks!

Note, the choice of vocabulary seems a little odd to me. I mean, "arx" does mean "castle, fort" in classical Latin, but you could use "castellum," too, and it was the idiomatic choice for what we would think of as a "castle" during the middle ages. (Although the grammar of "proper" Latin was more or less the same from Roman times, style and vocabulary evolved even in educated writing.)

So: in/ultra castellum tenebrosum are probably better for medievalesque game.

Quote from: Benoist;623401Amber.

No. Seriously. This is why Amber is not a Story game: because the characters actually have themselves the ability to alter reality, and therefore, from a player standpoint, these decisions can be made in character. Hence, role playing.

Amber is a storygame, with a feeble RPG sheen covering up that otherwise-obvious fact.  The results of "RPG-reasons" and "Rules-reasons" are identical regardless of the reasoning, IE the players control story elements.  If you enjoy a game where the players control story elements, regardless of the justification for it, then you enjoy storygames.  In Amber, the GM is essentially just another player, as the GM's powers are essentially the same as the players powers, with some relatively superficial differences like "the GM plays more than one character".

I might believe that.  Or I might just love tweaking Pundit.  I might even like hearing him scream from all the way down there in South America, trying to shove his fist through the screen to choke me out.

I understand that "old school" has been commercialized as code for "like that game we've given up our legal right to name." I understand the competitive interests of vendors in defining the pseudo-trademark to their advantage.

However, by taking 'old' as the apparent descriptor, people who are really marketing a particular approach to D&D have accepted ambiguity. A lot of different approaches to FRP came into the hobby before the Dungeon Masters Guide; if they are not old enough, then neither is AD&D!

Will adoption of the "old school" label backfire on vendors whose wares don't meet the criteria of The Old Schooltm? Will the context-sensitive ambiguity instead prove fruitful for them? Time will tell.

WotC did not like the actual results of making D20 System an "industry standard architecture." If OSR publishers find the bed they've made uncomfortable, they will likewise have themselves to blame.

It might be less uncomfortable if they refrained from jabbing their bedmates.

Is there not a better lesson to learn from off-putting aspects of 4E promotion than how to imitate them?

Quote from: Benoist;623415Hence, I'm role playing the world.

Nicely put. Is it not then legitimate (not by the yardstick of your game preferences, but as a matter of reasonable discourse) for someone to say, "I'm role playing subset x of the world, hence I am playing a role playing game?"

In other words, some such term as "story game" (which I agree is useful) might be a subset of RPG -- as opposed to non-RPG.

Quote from: jibbajibba;623365But you didn't say always puts you in the point of view of a protagonist you said ..

The problem with your analogy is that if Yellow is "roleplaying from an IC pov" then something Orange would have to allow yellow wouldn't it? If something actually by definition through mechanics prevented yellow from being in the palette, you could hardly call it orange could you?

And all of those games do allow you to roleplay from an IC pov for the majority of the time you are playing the game. Sure there are mechanics that break immersion or certainly make you step out of character but even D&D does that just less of the time or to do something gamist rather than something narativist.

So they are probably orange right?

You tell me, if I can't actually fire a fucking bow without making an OOC decision, doesn't seem to me like there's gonna be too much yellow.

Quote from: Phillip;623516In other words, some such term as "story game" (which I agree is useful) might be a subset of RPG -- as opposed to non-RPG.

Group creation of narratives is not roleplaying. Just like writing a novel with a partner (Niven and Pournelle) isn't acting.

The effort to conflate two highly dissimilar enterprises, by attempting to redefine words so they have no meaning, is a flawed approach.

Or, prove that authoring a novel with a partner or group (Thieves' World) is the same as acting. (Without using linguistic tricks.)

Eliot, I was kind of making a joke.  You're right, the Latin is preposition, noun, noun, which is weird.

As John said, "Into the Dark Castle" is  probably what they were going for.

In a more idiomatic Latin typical of mottos however, "In Darkness, Defense" (or Protection) is closer to the mark.  Which is ironic considering the motivations we've been discussing.  

Quote from: Phillip;623516Nicely put. Is it not then legitimate (not by the yardstick of your game preferences, but as a matter of reasonable discourse) for someone to say, "I'm role playing subset x of the world, hence I am playing a role playing game?"

In other words, some such term as "story game" (which I agree is useful) might be a subset of RPG -- as opposed to non-RPG.

I like "Narrative RPG", or as Wil Wheaton described "Storytelling RPG", or maybe just "Story RPG"

The term Storygame however, can apply to some obviously non RPG games, like Flower for Mara.

Actually not sure Flower for Mara is even a game, maybe Dirty Secrets is a better example.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;623233Hero Quest is a Storygame, IMHO

You mean in the sense of not being an RPG?

Because if so I've played a bunch of HeroQuest and I don't see it. Each player has a single character and describes their actions from that character's POV.

Apparently the author himself doesn't quite agree...

Quote from:  Robin Laws, Heroquest Rule BookThinking in Story Terms
Although there’s no right or wrong way to play the game, a certain story-based logic does underlie the entire system. Where traditional  roleplaying  games  simulate  an  imaginary  reality, HeroQuest emulates the techniques of fictional storytelling.

Understanding this distinction will help you run the game in a natural, seamless manner. Although the game can be run in a more simulative style, you’ll find that it fights you a bit when certain edge cases crop up. One of this book’s objectives is to get under the hood of narrative technique and show you how it works. This will either help you run the game in its emulative style, or, if you prefer a simulative approach, to understand how you’ll need to modify it to suit your preferences. For example, let’s say that you’re running a game inspired by fast-paced, non-fantastic, martial arts movies in a contemporary setting. A PC is running along a bridge, pacing a hovercraft, piloted by the main bad guy. The player wants his character, Joey Chun, to jump onto the hovercraft and punch the villain’s lights out. You must decide how hard it is for him to do this. In  a  traditional,  simulative  game,  you’d  determine  how hard this is based on the physical constraints you’ve described. In doing so, you come up with numbers and measurements. You’d  work  out  the  distance  between  bridge  and  hovercraft. Depending on the rules set, you might take into account the relative speeds of the hero and the vehicle. You determine the difficulty of the attempt based on these factors, and then use whatever resolution mechanic the rules provide you with to see if Joey succeeds or fails. If he blows it, you’ll probably consult the falling rules to see how badly he injures himself (if he lands poorly), or the drowning rules, if he ends up in the river.

In  HeroQuest,  you  start  not  with  the  physical  details, but with the proposed action’s position in the storyline. You consider a range of narrative factors, from how entertaining it would be for him to succeed, how much failure would slow the pacing of the current sequence, and how long it has been since Joey last scored a thrilling victory. If, after this, you need further reference points, you draw inspiration more from martial arts movies than the physics of real-life jumps from bridges onto moving  hovercrafts.  Having  decided  how  difficult  the  task ought to be dramatically, you then supply the physical details as color, to justify your choice and lend it verisimilitude—the illusion of authenticity that makes us accept fictional incidents as credible on their own terms. If you want Joey to have a high chance of success, you describe the distance between bridge and vehicle as impressive (so it feels exciting if he makes it) but not insurmountable (so it seems believable if he makes it.)

In other words, HeroQuest starts with story considerations, deciding the difficulty and then working backward to describe physical details in accordance with them. This is the way that authors and screenwriters make decisions. If this were a movie, the  writers  and  director  would  first  of  all  decide  whether the  Joey  succeeds  or  fails.  This  is  a  structural  decision;  it determines  if  the  scene  continues  with  a  thrilling  shipboard combat, or concludes with a frustrated hero sputtering in the polluted waters of the Hudson River. After making this choice, they  then  construct  the  sequence  to  be  suitably  sensational, however it comes out.

Quote from: CRKrueger;623528Apparently the author himself doesn't quite agree...

Yup. Just read that the other day. That's what I based my IMHO off of.

(Although, if Soviet got feisty, I'd go so far as simming-RPG hybrid.)

Quote from: CRKrueger;623528Apparently the author himself doesn't quite agree...

? Please expand. You're saying that because the GM advice in HeroQuest mentions story, Robin Laws doesn't think HeroQuest is a roleplaying game?

Edit: In fact, isn't the subtitle of HeroQuest 1e 'Roleplaying in Glorantha'?

My reading of that intro (based also on other things I have read by laws) is that he believes Hero Quest is a different category of RPG (but I think in his mind still an RPG) and he makes the distinction clear to the reader because its important to running it in his opinion. He is drawing a clear line between traditional RPGs and what he is offering, but also saying you can cross it easily with some tweaks. If I had to put words in his mouth CRK's 'narrative RPG' sounds like a label Laws wouldn't shy away from.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;623519Group creation of narratives is not roleplaying.

Neither is tossing dice.

What of it? Neither is the subject at hand in what I wrote, or (I thought) in what Benoist wrote.

Quote from: soviet;623530You're saying that because the GM advice in HeroQuest mentions story

The quotes:

"HeroQuest emulates the techniques of fictional storytelling."

"this book's objectives is to get under the hood of narrative technique"

"you start not with the physical details, but with the proposed action's position in the storyline."

"You consider a range of narrative factors, from how entertaining it would be for him to succeed, how much failure would slow the pacing of the current sequence, and how long it has been since Joey last scored a thrilling victory."

Story. Story. Story. Story.

That's pretty clear, Sov.