Quote from: CRKrueger;623328BTW, you strike me as a scholar, John, what is your translation of in tenebras arcem? Or anyone else who knows Latin.

I'm not sure if there's a deeper point to this question, but the phrase is either fragmentary or ungrammatical. After refreshing my Latin with the help of Google translate, and looking at some DW-related banter on the web, I think the phrase is supposed to mean, "Into the dark dungeon." But "tenebras" is a form of "tenebrae," which doesn't mean "dark"; it means "darkness." (It's also a funny word because it's usually used in the plural; the singular would be "tenebra.")

Somebody fixed it to "in tenebrosam arcem," which uses the adjective derived from "tenebrae."

Quote from: jhkim;623363So that's "into the dark castle".

Point of curiosity:

Anyone know what "beyond dark castle" would be in Latin?

ultra arcem tenebrosam

(This time I'm using the more normal word order of noun-adjective; aside from style there's no difference between arcem tenebrosam and tenebrosam arcem.)

Quote from: jibbajibba;623365And all of those games do allow you to roleplay from an IC pov for the majority of the time you are playing the game. Sure there are mechanics that break immersion or certainly make you step out of character but even D&D does that just less of the time or to do something gamist rather than something narativist.

I'm not contradicting you. It seems you are able to step OOC, edit the world around you as an author, then flip back to IC.

It doesn't work that way for me. I found, when playing in a game with a lot, a lot, of simming elements that it ruined the whole game.

As a player in a simming heavy world, it felt like I was "living" in a plastic universe, where things changed without warning. The NPC's? Mine. The airship? Mine. Prominent features of that airship? Mine.

I could edit the world (more-or-less) freely, and that destroyed my investment in my character, the situation, my goals, and the drive to achieve them. I didn't like it.

Other people have different reactions, and that's fine. I, myself am not absolutely opposed to all metagame mechanics. I love Torg, for Ghu's sake, and the Drama Deck is metagame with an exclamation point (!).

But simming was not my cup of tea. And even a few simming mechanics in an otherwise traditional RPG will undermine the entire game for me.

It's not true for you. Which is cool. But it is for me.

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Quote from: Daddy Warpig;623379I'm not contradicting you. It seems you are able to step OOC, edit the world around you as an author, then flip back to IC.

It doesn't work that way for me. I found, when playing in a game with a lot, a lot, of simming elements that it ruined the whole game.

As a player in a simming heavy world, it felt like I was "living" in a plastic universe, where things changed without warning. The NPC's? Mine. The airship? Mine. Prominent features of that airship? Mine.

I could edit the world (more-or-less) freely, and that destroyed my investment in my character, the situation, my goals, and the drive to achieve them. I didn't like it.

Other people have different reactions, and that's fine. I, myself am not absolutely opposed to all metagame mechanics. I love Torg, for Ghu's sake, and the Drama Deck is metagame with an exclamation point (!).

But simming was not my cup of tea. And even a few simming mechanics in an otherwise traditional RPG will undermine the entire game for me.

It's not true for you. Which is cool. But it is for me.

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No I dislike heavy narrative elements to game anything beyond a heropoint/bennies sysyem is too far for me to be interested.
I am a hey-nonny immersive roleplayer. For example I hate troupe play even to the point where I dislike henchmen in D&D if the player gets to run them and use them as a backup PC, as it spoils my immersion.

However, my likes or dislikes are irrelvant to whether or not a game with these elements is an RPG or not. Like I said up post I don't like Shreddies but that doesn't mean that I think they should label them as 'Cardbaord flavoured crap' rather than breakfast cereal.

On a weird note that is slightly related.

Wouldn't a lot of narrative style mechanics be interesting for a game where the character was supposed to be able to have reality altering affects.

Like what if the characters actually WERE capable of editing the laws of reality around them in character...

I think it could make for an interesting game.

(It also brings up interesting moral quandaries about manipulating the thoughts, situations, and realities of others to further your own goals, too)

Quote from: Emperor Norton;623385On a weird note that is slightly related.

Wouldn't a lot of narrative style mechanics be interesting for a game where the character was supposed to be able to have reality altering affects.

Like what if the characters actually WERE capable of editing the laws of reality around them in character...

I think it could make for an interesting game.

(It also brings up interesting moral quandaries about manipulating the thoughts, situations, and realities of others to further your own goals, too)

One of the reasons I like the MMOs LotRO and Rift is because they take the standard MMOisms and reframe them to make them work within the setting itself.

I wish Jay Little had never touched Warhammer, but I was looking forward to The Coriolis Defect, a failed Kickstarter he was doing.  The Coriolis Defect is a power certain people have to go back in their own lifetime and relive experiences, essentially rewinding time.  Functionally, it seems no different from any narrative world-edit mechanic.  Setting wise though, it's completely different because unlike every other narrative game out there, the one doing the world-editing is the character.  It is the character's power, the character's decision.

Narrative mechanics used from an IC POV, I love it.  I hope he gets this published some other way, I'd like to read it.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;623377ultra arcem tenebrosam

Thanks!

Quote from: jibbajibba;623384No I dislike heavy narrative elements to game anything beyond a heropoint/bennies sysyem is too far for me to be interested.

Reading your posts, I got the impression you were more into reality-editing. My mistake.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;623385On a weird note that is slightly related.

Wouldn't a lot of narrative style mechanics be interesting for a game where the character was supposed to be able to have reality altering affects.

Like what if the characters actually WERE capable of editing the laws of reality around them in character...

I think it could make for an interesting game.

(It also brings up interesting moral quandaries about manipulating the thoughts, situations, and realities of others to further your own goals, too)

Amber.

No. Seriously. This is why Amber is not a Story game: because the characters actually have themselves the ability to alter reality, and therefore, from a player standpoint, these decisions can be made in character. Hence, role playing.

When I'm the DM, y'all are saying that I'm not roleplaying whem I'm hamming it up as the slow but good-natured town drunk because I control the world?

Quote from: Old One Eye;623404When I'm the DM, y'all are saying that I'm not roleplaying whem I'm hamming it up as the slow but good-natured town drunk because I control the world?

The DM is not a standard player. He's the DM--he is expected to play everyone else in the campaign world. You are roleplaying within the expected parameters of the DM or GM's duties.

If you're a regular player, and start taking control of the actions of NPCs and the like, well, that's when we have a problem, from my viewpoint.

Melting the line between the player and DM is never a good thing, IMO. Shared narrative power and like might work for some, but it's nothing that's been success at gaming table I've been a part of, and it's not a style I particularly care for.

Quote from: Old One Eye;623404When I'm the DM, y'all are saying that I'm not roleplaying whem I'm hamming it up as the slow but good-natured town drunk because I control the world?

No. Talking about my own experience running games, when I am embodying this or that NPC I am doing just that: I am placing myself as the character in front of the players', and I role play him or her (that doesn't mean I'm Robert De Niro or whatnot, I have modest acting abilities like everybody else at the table, but I am placing myself in that position of immersion as well as a GM nonetheless). Ditto about the world at large: what I am doing is actually role playing the world. That is, from the basic situation the scenario proposes, I just role play the environment as it goes about its various events and people doing their stuff with their own motivations and plans and whatnot, and all these elements (i.e. the world, taken as a whole) react to what the players' characters do at the same time. Hence, I'm role playing the world.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;623390Reading your posts, I got the impression you were more into reality-editing. My mistake.

I was thinking about this as i wondered round Hong Kong this evening and I realised there are a few other narative type things i don't mind.

i) I like being able to buy contacts & influence as part of character generation - so spend a background point to have a police contact or what not.
ii) Extending that I like the FGU subcultures skills that effectively give you contacts on the fly if you make a skill check - this is a bit like Ben's post re Amber in which its kind of not narative because its a skill the PC has but it kind of is becuase it creates a new NPC from nothing.
iii) I like positive statement of intent. So " I pick a wine bottle off the table and use it like a club" or "I grab a little kid out of the crowd to use as a meat shield". Now I never thought that was narativist until Pundit pulled me up on it once on the forum and told me that is was because I was editing the game world and at his table I would have to say "is there a wine bottle on the table I can use as a club?" etc .... for me that is less immersive rather than more but it might be a little pedantic to pull it up here.

Quote from: jibbajibba;623423I was thinking about this as i wondered round Hong Kong this evening and I realised there are a few other narative type things i don't mind.

i) I like being able to buy contacts & influence as part of character generation - so spend a background point to have a police contact or what not.

How is this in any way a narrative mechanic?

Quoteii) Extending that I like the FGU subcultures skills that effectively give you contacts on the fly if you make a skill check - this is a bit like Ben's post re Amber in which its kind of not narative because its a skill the PC has but it kind of is becuase it creates a new NPC from nothing.

Well, er, not really, the way I see it is that the NPC was always there but we didn't bother detailing who they were and what their relationship was to the PC because it never became relevant. It might be news to us that your character has a contact in the police but it's not a new feature to the setting to posit that there is a thing called the "police" and some members of this organisation befriend people from outside the organisation, or that the player character has a range of contacts in different organisations whose specifics we're leaving undefined for the time being.

Quoteiii) I like positive statement of intent. So " I pick a wine bottle off the table and use it like a club" or "I grab a little kid out of the crowd to use as a meat shield". Now I never thought that was narativist until Pundit pulled me up on it once on the forum and told me that is was because I was editing the game world and at his table I would have to say "is there a wine bottle on the table I can use as a club?" etc .... for me that is less immersive rather than more but it might be a little pedantic to pull it up here.

Personally I'd say it wouldn't be narrative if it were something you could legitimately expect to find in the location in question without too much trouble. If you're in a restaurant which serves wine and it's the right time of the evening you can grab a wine bottle without that much effort at all; if you're in a crowd at a funfair there's going to be small children around. As a GM, I'd say that if I've told you that your character is in a bar, then you don't need to ask me whether there's glassware to hand because dude, it's a bar, you're not inventing new details because the details in question are implicit in the situation I've already described.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;623153I think it is ironic that widespread communication technology has possibly made us more tribal and insular as opposed to less. Everything has become politicized. Morality and belief have become inseparable. You can't support public health care without also being for gun control.

Why I said the worst thing to happen to the RPG hobby was the internet.

We can't be happy that people are engaging in the hobby.  No, that isn't good enough.  We have to put labeled boxes on everything.
Whoa be to you if you are not in the correctly labeled box.