Quote from: J ArcaneI don't care.

It's called plagiarism.

Whether you game the law to get around it, at it's heart it's the same thing.

Now, it's one thing to make such a project available in the fashion that OSRIC has, but actually pulling a profit from someone else's work is another matter entirely.

It's wrong.  Period.

While I see your point, let me give you my perspective.  A couple years back I started the exact same project that Phil Reed is doing.  My plan was to make FASERIP freely available as an OGL project.  To me, it is worth my 10 pledge to see the project finished and to make any arising legal entanglements Phil's problem instead of mine.

With regards to the original topic, I pretty much agree with grubby on this one.  Basic Fantasy doesn't work for me and I don't really see the point.  Hobbling the licensing seems counterproductive.  And as a matter of dogma I believe that anything with the word "basic" in the title should include Elf as a class option.

Quote from: jrientsWhile I see your point, let me give you my perspective.  A couple years back I started the exact same project that Phil Reed is doing.  My plan was to make FASERIP freely available as an OGL project.  To me, it is worth my 10 pledge to see the project finished and to make any arising legal entanglements Phil's problem instead of mine.

With regards to the original topic, I pretty much agree with grubby on this one.  Basic Fantasy doesn't work for me and I don't really see the point.  Hobbling the licensing seems counterproductive.  And as a matter of dogma I believe that anything with the word "basic" in the title should include Elf as a class option.

I look at it the same way I look at, say, pirating songs off Limewire.

If I download a copy of the latest Gnarls Barkley single for my own use, I'm technically breaking the law, but it doesn't really bother me that much.  It's about on the same wavelength as jaywalking or a "little white lie".

However, if I download that same song, and then turn around and burn it on a CD and start selling it to suckers on the street, or put it up on eBay, or somesuch, I've crossed a line.  

I'm no longer just doing this for fun or my own enjoyment, I am now actively profiting off someone else's work.

That's wrong.  

I'm pretty open-minded about the fuzzy edges of the intellectual property controversies, but I don't see this as one of the fuzzy parts.  

So something like Phil Reed's little extortion project really rubs me the wrong way, while something like OSRIC that's being done as a fan project, open licensed, and not directly for profit (though I understand some have discussed publishing sourcebooks and modules using OSRIC, that falls comfortably under "derivative works", and isn't the same thing.)  If they were actually selling OSRIC for profit, or pulling a "ransom" a la Reed, then I'd be as pissed at them.

I can't comment on Basic Fantasy because I'm only semi-familiar with it, and wasn't until now aware of any oddities regarding the license.

Quote from: J ArcaneI felt the same way about that FASERIP project everyone was going all ga-ga over.

Why the fuck should I give Phil Reed money just so he can repurpose someone else's work?

Now with the FASERIP stuff it seems silly to me. They wouldnt be able to stat current marvel charcters. Then publish it. So they would just be creating material that I could with the books myself. Just my opinion. As for the basic fantasy stuff. Hey more power to them. I have the old D&D books stashed somewhere. I would just use them. But for people who do not have it. It may be a good option. Its just another fantasy system. Like Dark Eye, Hackmaster, or Talislanta. Its not adding homebrew material onto an exisisting system. Which is the way I view the idea of OGL FASERIP.

Quote from: CalithenaI don't begrudge Sol vanity publishing his own D&D homebrew. Let a thousand flowers blossom. I'd like to publish my own, actually, though not enough to actually put the effort into doing it.

More or less - yeah. Sometimes you get the urge to crank out your "ideal" D&D, and since you have the OGL, you can do it legally. I did it, Solomoriah did it, Troll Lord Games did it (reasonably successfully, too!). It's a fun creative excercise, nothing more. IMHO, it isn't even problematic ethically because it is harmless. Harmless. Nobody is going to lose out on revenue - although maybe this accusation could be levelled at C&C, if you squint and look at it sideways (of course, C&C tends to pick up people who get burned out on d20, so I would even debate that point).

Frankly, grubman, I am puzzled by the rage you exhibit in this thread.

Quote from: grubmanI wouldn't say "getting all worked up over it".  The point of the discussion was in the title, Why would anyone play this instead of just playing Basic D&D?...the rest was just miscellaneous opinions unrelated to the actual thread topic.

Ease of access, Basic is no longer on sale, nobody loses revenue by the core of it being redone online, some people may enjoy playing it but not have easy access to second hand copies.

I'm not sure I get the problem, if it's not useful to you, don't download it.  If it's not useful to anyone, nobody will download it.

But I don't own Basic and if I wanted to play it (I don't especially) then this could be useful, and as I say nobody is losing revenue here as it is essentially abandonware.

I'm not sure I'm seeing a problem, it's clearly a project born of affection, nothing more than that.

Quote from: BalbinusEase of access, Basic is no longer on sale, nobody loses revenue by the core of it being redone online, some people may enjoy playing it but not have easy access to second hand copies.

I'm not sure I get the problem, if it's not useful to you, don't download it.  If it's not useful to anyone, nobody will download it.

But I don't own Basic and if I wanted to play it (I don't especially) then this could be useful, and as I say nobody is losing revenue here as it is essentially abandonware.

I'm not sure I'm seeing a problem, it's clearly a project born of affection, nothing more than that.

I agree, and I even d/led a copy. Also of note is that from what I can tell, Sol is not making a dime off it. You can download the game for free and IIRC, he's selling the book from Lulu at cost. So at the most Lulu's making a little bit, but the people responsible? Nothing.

Looking at it, it's dedicated to Gary Gygax, Dave Arneson, Tom Moldvay, David Cook and Steve Marsh, and the author is quite clear that he is adapting other people's work.

Seriously, he's not taking credit for other people's work here, I just don't see that.

It's also basically a d20ised version of the RC period rules, which is something somewhat new.

I'm really not getting the issue, there's no theft here, credit is given, this looks to me like some fans getting together and updating an old ruleset they love and then making it available for free for others who might use it.  That's a good thing, generous even, they're not profiting off someone else's work here.

It's not my thing, but there's no harm to it either that I can see.

Jesus fuck.  It's free.  What the hell is there to get worked up about?

Boy, all these comments about getting all worked up...I must be a terrible writer (expressor of my thoughts) or something.  It's just a casual conversation, I'm not on a crusade to crush BFRPG or anything and haven't lost a wink of sleep.  I think the entire post has been taken out of context.

Does the whole thing (BFRPG) leave a bad taste in my mouth?  Yes, nothing more, I was just wondering why anyone would play a game that is 95% something that is already owned (or owned and discarded already) by most role players.  Most people who would seek this out would be fans of Basic in some incarnation, and every version of basic is superior to this in writing and editing (fact, not a rant).  The icing on the cake is that the author has made it so no one can write/publish stuff for the system without meeting his criteria (which would probably be the only reason someone would seek this out in the first place), which seems counter productive and a little insulting since it isn't truely his work in the first place.

Just wanted to discuss it, that's all.

BFRPG is just another in a long line of D&D clones.  At least the author isn't trying to make any money off of it, so I certainly don't see any harm.  It's definitely not as bad as basing your whole company on it like Troll Lords does with Castles & Crusades.  

I've run a short campaign with BFRPG and have made some minor contributions to it.  I would consider running it again instead of Basic D&D simply because I can give the players free, legal copies of the rules.

It gave me a moment or two of nostalgia, but it's pretty worthless for me at the moment.  I think I'd choose this rules set if I had to make a decision between it and Basic D&D, which I guess is a compliment.  Since I won't be playing either, it's moot.

-O

Wow - I'm surprised anyone else actually knew about Basic Fantasy.  I hear about it all the time because the guys are locals and always talk about it in the local convention group.

I'm in the "meh" group, myself.  If I want a homebrew version of D&D, I'll write my own, thanks.

On a side note - some new guy who moved to the area looked at BF after being informed about it in the group.  He said "I don't know - it looks like a step backwards to me".  I don't think they appreciated the criticism.

The FASERIP thing is far more obnoxious, IMO.  For one thing, it's being done by Phil Reed - who I don't have anything good to say about; particularly after he acted like such an asshole over the whole Star Frontiers.com thing.  I find it hilarious that he was so high and mighty about copyrights then (even though he was wrong) and now he's ripping off WotC IP (and not even asking for permission).

But really, FASERIP is a far dumber project than BF anyways.  Heck, they've changed so much with rules it doesn't even resemble MSH anymore.  What's the point of ripping off a system if you don't really rip it off?  And who would want any material for FASERIP that wasn't related to Marvel comics material?

Quote from: grubmanThe icing on the cake is that the author has made it so no one can write/publish stuff for the system without meeting his criteria (which would probably be the only reason someone would seek this out in the first place), which seems counter productive and a little insulting since it isn't truely his work in the first place.

Just wanted to discuss it, that's all.

Hmm, I've read the product identity license, and the only thing that seems really restrictive to me is the "rated R" clause, but it doesn't bother me. What else about the license bothers you, 'cause I am curious.

Because it's more accessible. While Basic D&D isn't hard to find (it's available in PDF from RPGNow), if somebody doesn't have a credit card, it would simply be easier to download a freebie than jump through the hoops of purchasing PDFs via Money Order or check.

Quote from: grubmanBoy, all these comments about getting all worked up...I must be a terrible writer (expressor of my thoughts) or something.

If you don't want people thinking you're worked up, don't

• ask questions starting with such fiery phrases as "why the hell"
• say it "bothers you so much"
• use the word hate to describe your emotions on the subject
• insult people (unless you meant arrogant as a friendly term)

Hope this helps.