I think as other posters have said, D&D isnt great for simulating ambushes - shadowrun for example does it much better.

But it is a game balance issue, as the OP suggests - if you let any big bad get dropped by a stealth ambush, that's super effective - and your players will play accordingly, turning their party into a crack ninja commando team - firstly to reap the benefits, and secondly to avoid being ambushed themselves.

I think in D&D a failed ambush of this kind if explained by - target notices the attack at last moment and reacts etc, stuffing up the blow in some way, or gets lucky. For the most party however, 1st level sentries will die vs a thief backstab (with multi dice damage), it is only higher level threats that might resist - and against those, the thief may well win initiative, effectively getting two rounds of attacks before the target retaliates. So there is a good incentive to ambush, but it isnt a guaranteed win, or at least not against opponent with more than 1-3 HD.

Which is I think about how it should be, for a D&D level based game.

In Low Fantasy Gaming I gave thieves +4 to hit and adv on attack rolls against unaware opponents (auto hit, pretty much), with extra damage dice. If a player really wanted to make a true "assassin" type character, they can make themselves an appropriate Unique Ability at 3rd, 6th etc (in consultation with the GM).

The other problem is that say slitting someones throat from behind is going to blow your sneak the second you start to reach around them.

Get a friend. Hand them a ruler or butter knife and have them stand behind you and then reach around to try and get your neck.

Assuming a 5e Rogue with sneak attack and surprise then you have two rounds to poke this guard to death.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;917531Formula?  Honestly, I've already house ruled it.  In the various editions of D&D I've run.  And in Fantasy Hero, I simply allowed Stealth to determine a multiplier.

5e:  You catch you're opponent unaware with stealth, you get the Rogue's Advantage bonus when striking, however, to 'disable' (In other words remove a target, whether by death or stabbing in the vitals like lungs, kidneys and so on) you have disadvantage on the strike.  If you do it on a surprise round, you get just get Disadvantage on the attack.

I used the hit location table from the Fighters Handbook in 2e.  3e, we had a rogue and the times the wizard was there, that one always managed to remove any target long before stealth or surprise ever mattered.

Huh, OK. I thought you were asking about "how to shove someone over a battlement." Which was so odd it warranted my curiosity. Carry on!

Quote from: Omega;917553The other problem is that say slitting someones throat from behind is going to blow your sneak the second you start to reach around them.

Get a friend. Hand them a ruler or butter knife and have them stand behind you and then reach around to try and get your neck.

Assuming a 5e Rogue with sneak attack and surprise then you have two rounds to poke this guard to death.

Eh, that example goes deliberately against the explanations of both Surprise and Backstab conditions (2e specifically). There has to be a lack of awareness, either of intent or presence or both. Your example has visuals, hearing, and advanced warning before the attempt which fails the requirements (unless you're all playing Killer).

Naturally, I understand you are talking about that innate extra sensory sense animals seem to have about being watched, but the example doesn't help explain that. The point you're making is taking advantage of surprise ends up imperfect, because surprise itself is part of the unpredictable mess known as combat. Thus yes, it does make sense that HP and damage ranges become relevant to represent this range of unpredictability.

(I also still dislike 5e's Sneak Attack and way prefer good ol' Backstab instead.)

Quote from: Opaopajr;917579Eh, that example goes deliberately against the explanations of both Surprise and Backstab conditions (2e specifically). There has to be a lack of awareness, either of intent or presence or both. Your example has visuals, hearing, and advanced warning before the attempt which fails the requirements (unless you're all playing Killer).

This is the OPs example.

QuoteGM - "The guard doesn't hear you, he is looking out over the battlement seemingly oblivious. Your roll is a good one and you are right up behind him."
Player - "I slit his throat."

Thats not a sneak attack. That is trying to cou-de-gra someone neither unconcious nor restrained.

If you really sneak up silently behind him and strike solidly he's dead.  Just like if you come upon Ultimate Bigbadguy and he's sound asleep and you hit him squarely in the face with a battle axe, he's dead.  Fuck hit points, fuck level.  You hit somebody in the face with a battle axe, he's dead.

The rules are there to serve me, not I them.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;917613If you really sneak up silently behind him and strike solidly he's dead.  Just like if you come upon Ultimate Bigbadguy and he's sound asleep and you hit him squarely in the face with a battle axe, he's dead.  Fuck hit points, fuck level.  You hit somebody in the face with a battle axe, he's dead.

The rules are there to serve me, not I them.

Dont complain when someone does it to your character standing on watch then.

Quote from: Omega;917604This is the OPs example.
[...]
Thats not a sneak attack. That is trying to cou-de-gra someone neither unconcious nor restrained.

That's just ambush/surprise in 2e. Coup de grâce instant death is for out-of-combat held or asleep. In-combat held or asleep is an automatic hit. Since the target is neither held nor asleep the out-of-combat factor moves merrily along into ambush/surprise combat resolution. Very easy.

Point being is unconsciousness or restraint prevents any sort of subconscious resistance. Because, regardless our attitudes, life wants to live and will flinch or cringe accordingly. Obliviousness is not the same as sleep otherwise there is no need to define surprise, let alone offer the GM the optional roll mechanic.

And since the guard is looking over a battlement, and a prepped ambush (such as waiting for the guard to be close & obliviously enough to overlook the battlements with you nearby) gives a free round of actions, it's dirt easy to just push... Instant death. No reengineered backstab, or more broadly defined coup de grâce, necessary. Same result but the setting & party isn't plunged into paranoia because of houseruling ramifications.

The rules work exactly fine as intended as is.

(Edit: OK, I see where you are arguing from now. And I see we are still in agreement. I just found your example confusing. I won't delete my post because I think my comment supports your point of view here.)

Quote from: Omega;917553The other problem is that say slitting someones throat from behind is going to blow your sneak the second you start to reach around them.

Get a friend. Hand them a ruler or butter knife and have them stand behind you and then reach around to try and get your neck.

Assuming a 5e Rogue with sneak attack and surprise then you have two rounds to poke this guard to death.

Hollywood rarely gets throat cutting right. The blade needs to enter the neck from the side and then pushed outward cutting the throat from the inside out.

Thats just basic blade safety- cut away from yourself.

It still boils down to a player trying to create an "I win" button rather than enguaging the system.

in 5e a Guard has 11 HP. The backstabbing Rogue can assess their chance of downing this guy in one go. Assuming youve got a rapier then the average damage is 4.5 and the backstab extra is 3.5 total average of 8. 3rd level you have on average a chance to down em in one shot. 11.5. By level 7 even better. 15 average. Not counting DEX bonus for finesse.

Or just drug the guard and then off them.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;917613If you really sneak up silently behind him and strike solidly he's dead.  Just like if you come upon Ultimate Bigbadguy and he's sound asleep and you hit him squarely in the face with a battle axe, he's dead.  Fuck hit points, fuck level.  You hit somebody in the face with a battle axe, he's dead.

The rules are there to serve me, not I them.

100% agreement!

Ultimately true, but for your group you need to consider the impact, on enjoyment, of how you interpret the rules one way or another. It seems to be a truism but you need to get it out of the way in order to have a conversation that doesn't descend into more vapid truisms or sophistry.

In this case there are a bunch of interesecting elements including fairness of treatment between PCs and NPCs, and what it means to be "high level" particularly in D&D, along with your interpretation of hit points. In my opinion, high-level characters, if not high-HD monsters, all deserve to benefit from "fictive oomph".

This takes us to the meaning of the imaginary action vs dice roll. As people have said, the to-hit/damage roll can be interpreted as a resolution of the whole question "Do I successfully get into position for the insta-kill?" rather than taking the latter as established purely by description and/or stealth rolls. As such, just as a high-level character has improved saves that can be seen as any combination of luck, sixth-sense reaction, hardiness, and skill--all of them overcoming what might otherwise be sure death based on previous description--so the higher hit points and the dice roll can mean the big baddy standing at the battlement just plain ain't gonna be dispatched that way. He also won't be frozen by being caught flat-footed by a guy with a crossbow. Is it realistic? No. But at some point the leveling up process breaks free of realism and you just have to accept under some circumstances (based on your reading of the rules) Kirk/Bond/Conan is always going to find a way, or get lucky, and avoid the surprise killing blow.

Quote from: Omega;917553The other problem is that say slitting someones throat from behind is going to blow your sneak the second you start to reach around them.

Get a friend. Hand them a ruler or butter knife and have them stand behind you and then reach around to try and get your neck.

Assuming a 5e Rogue with sneak attack and surprise then you have two rounds to poke this guard to death.

I'm not aware of any method of covert knife-fighting that has ever advocated slitting someone's throat like this. It's a Hollywoodism. (edit but it looks cool!)

I personally know several people that have killed people with knives (Vietnam) covertly and every single one of them has done it by stabbing from the rear and up into the rib-cage. My father's friend used to love to debate on the efficacy of stabbing someone through the kidneys first as the shock usually rendered them unable to scream initially (or not enough to where they couldn't muffle them) which bought them time to give them a few more pokes on the way down. My father was more of an "under the rib-cage and stir" fan. The original Special Forces from WWII era used stilletto-style blades (though they were double-edge) largely for this purpose (puncturing is what kills you - not slashing).

So - yeah I'd agree with you. But at the same time, I use all of this as an assumption that if you have the Backstab ability - you know how to do this. I wouldn't dream that just *anyone* could pick up a knife and do this accurately. How you want to express this in the game is up to you. This is why the 5e Assassin ability is given the weight that it has - despite the many means of foiling it.

Context, context, context and more context.

Rogue is sneaking around or infiltrating some building guarded by mooks? Hell yes: auto kills.

In the heat of battle? Nope, dice rolls: everyone one else is, so fair's fair.

Rogue is in a hurry to sneak in or out of somewhere? They kill the guy without rolling BUT I make them do a skill test or luck roll to see how well they do it (or if the body makes a lot of noise as it crumples or falls off a balcony or whatever).

If the rogue is being belligerent and ignoring the warning signs that the fortress of Elite Assassin Lords of Hell is a bid deal, then yeah, dice rolls.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;917661Hollywood rarely gets throat cutting right. The blade needs to enter the neck from the side and then pushed outward cutting the throat from the inside out.

Thats just basic blade safety- cut away from yourself.

It also ensures you cut the windpipe to prevent yelling.  In the movie Proof of Life, Russell Crowe takes out a sentry that way.  A Marine buddy said that was pretty accurate to how they were trained.