About a month ago one of the researchers, who helped vet all the historical accuracy during the making of the film, Secrets of Blackmoor, dumped a huge trove of scans in one of our email discussions.
He had discovered that all the documentary evidence used in the Arneson Lawsuit vs. Gygax and TSR existed in the National Archive and was available at a minimal cost of $ .80 per sheet to anyone requesting it.
He knew he was sitting on a valuable collection of scans. Since he wasn't sure what to do with it, he decided to just go public and let everyone know where it was and what it was.
In with this collection are a lot of documents which WOTC was going to publish in a book and which they plan to charge $100.00 for. Since it is in the National Archive it's basically public domain at this point.
I posted some scans yesterday to show it exists. But I was not aware it was already being hosted on numerous sites as a free download.
At this point it is spreading like wild fire. Although I believe it was first revealed on the ODD74 forum, which would provide the greatest context for the documents, it is now being hosted on Ruins of Murkhill as well.
To me it is fascinating because I had never gotten to see a copy of the Guidon manuscript. That draft is what Greg Svenson used when he created Tonisborg dungeon.
What I find even more exciting is that now we have a set of rules that can be used to decode Tonisborg to an even greater degree. And one of the things about Tonisborg that people commented on was the size of a room which contains Wyverns. Well, if you read the guidon manuscript Gygax describes Wyverns as being small dragon like creatures with two legs and wings. Now I understand why Greg would put a lot of wyverns in a 10 foot by 10 foot room.
Another aspect of the manuscript which I find validates all of my own work, is the amount of credit Gygax gives to Arneson. He essentially says Arneson invented Role Playing, at least that is what I infer from the forward.
This is the discussion on Ruins of Murkhill where you can download the entire trove for yourself:
https://ruinsofmurkhill.proboards.com/board/501/court-case-arneson-gygax-tsr
Of course, this also puts into question what will happen in regard to the publication of WOTCs new book since many of the most heavy hitting artifacts are contained within the trove discovered by Michael Calleia.
Ciao, Griff
Fascinating.
This is a huge find on many levels.
Here is a direct download link:
https://ws.onehub.com/folders/uh3vxwq1
I'm curious to see a deep analysis by someone more knowledgeable of D&D history than me. Looks very interesting.
Downloaded, going to read through it to see if there's anything interesting...
Quote from: Brad on February 25, 2024, 08:51:04 PM
Downloaded, going to read through it to see if there's anything interesting...
I'd be interested in seeing your CliffsNotes.
Sounds like the wyverns in that dungeon were about the size of pseudo-dragons (Which were little dragon-like creatures with stinger tails).
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on February 26, 2024, 05:09:19 AM
Sounds like the wyverns in that dungeon were about the size of pseudo-dragons (Which were little dragon-like creatures with stinger tails).
Maybe Pern dragon sized? Those apparently were not exactly big?
The Were-Wyverns in the TSR Wyvern's Spur novel are not very big either. Larger than a human by far. But nowhere near dragon scale.
It's an amazing trove of items. The letters from Gygax are interesting and show a time when Dave and Gary were buddies which is nice for a change.
Although I have some of the interviews in my files already, I read one and it suddenly dawned on me I need to redate some artifacts I have by back dating them.
Tons to unpack on those papers.
shamefully stolen
Quote
Book 1 Organization
Introducton: This is where Gary editorializes and tells neat stories as much as his little heart desires and if he wants to use the extra pages.
A rule book is a rule book not a novel.
If only more publishers actually followed this damn guideline....
Quote from: THE_Leopold on February 26, 2024, 07:24:09 PM
shamefully stolen
Quote
Book 1 Organization
Introducton: This is where Gary editorializes and tells neat stories as much as his little heart desires and if he wants to use the extra pages.
A rule book is a rule book not a novel.
If only more publishers actually followed this damn guideline....
The amount of bloody World Of Darkness books that are 80 pages of schoolgirl squiggles and bad fan fiction before you see an actual rule, sheesh!
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 25, 2024, 11:05:32 PM
I'd be interested in seeing your CliffsNotes.
Well, IANAL so this is a slough...but after about 160 pages in, I've discovered Arneson was allegedly owed additional TSR stock in lieu of royalties for Blackmoor, and after AD&D was published he thought they were derivative works and thus subject to royalties per the agreement he had with TSR. He was also fired for not signing away his royalty claims (in his words); sounds like TSR was trying to treat him like a regular employee and say anything he produced while working there was 100% TSR property. That's a typical relationship for IP claims, but only AFTER someone creates stuff at a company...I get the impression TSR was trying change the terms of their working relationship with Arneson because it meant less money for the higher ups. There's a letter from Gygax to Arneson that talks about some sci-fi oriented RPG and offers information, and seems like it was written by a drinking buddy and business partner, not corp-to-employee.
Just from reading this, I get the distinct impression TSR fucked Arneson over pretty badly, but it didn't have much to do with Gygax at all.
Well in the end didnt TSR oust Gygax too? When creatives get into business with "good businessmen" it always tends to go south for the creatives.
I'd honestly rather have 100% control over a tiny project I created, that make bank from investment and end up pushed out.
Time and again creatives seek investment, grow massively, then get pushed out or shunted to a perfunctory position, while the thing they they created is altered beyond recognition then burned to the ground.
Went through a few more pages, apparently Arneson did the following D&D illustrations:
hydra
lizard
giant beetle
purple worm
So at least he wasn't responsible for the worst art in there...
Also depositions by the Blumes, can an actual lawyer please read this crap? All I can pick out is they claim TSR didn't do business in Minnesota, which somehow implies Arneson wasn't legally able to sue them? Also, they state specifically 5% royalties for LBBs, even though there is an agreement for 10%, the same one that MAR Barker got. Starting to seem more and more like they were fucking shysters.
I really liked the Blackmoor film. Would be interesting to see a documentary on this as well.
Quote from: Brad on February 27, 2024, 04:35:39 PMAlso depositions by the Blumes, can an actual lawyer please read this crap? All I can pick out is they claim TSR didn't do business in Minnesota, which somehow implies Arneson wasn't legally able to sue them? Also, they state specifically 5% royalties for LBBs, even though there is an agreement for 10%, the same one that MAR Barker got. Starting to seem more and more like they were fucking shysters.
As i understand the contract, it was 10% royalty in total - 5% for Dave and 5% for Gary..
I could be mistaken, though.
Now if only we can get a good scan of the full Domesday Map of The Great Kingdom & Environs that includes all the regions of 'Proto-Greyhawk'. We have the first map that shows many of the locations plus Dave Megarry's map that includes more. I want an actual map that shows all these locations, almost like the Darlene map. Hell, I would love a Folio that just gives us enough information about these locations. It would also be nice to link them to all the various Tournament versions like Tsojconth, Lost Tomoachan, etc.
A poster in this thread on Reddit gives some good breakdowns of the files in a few posts.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/1b253tf/original_dnd_transcript_and_gygax_arneson_case/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/1b253tf/original_dnd_transcript_and_gygax_arneson_case/)
For those that dont use Reddit heres the comments.
QuoteReviewing the case for interesting reference.
Page 18 has 1975 TSR Letterhead
Much of Arneson's evidence seems to be paperwork retained by M.A.R Barker, author of Empire of the Petal Throne (published by TSR) and a confirmed author of Neo-Nazi literature
Brian Blume's deposition explaining the business details of Tactical Studies Rules becoming TSR inc. begins on page 26 it also includes breakdowns of hours spent by Gygax vs TSR staff on production of the AD&D core rulebooks and the early modules
Blume basically argues that being a shareholder in TSR inc constitutes Arneson's share of the proceeds from D&D and that (especially in lieu of him doing any work for TSR inc) the old "Percent of Sales" agreement he had with Tactical Studies Rules does not apply to later editions. I think this is a pretty important thing to note, that Arneson as a stockholder was still enjoying dividends from the growth of the corporation.
Arneson got one royalty check from Tactical Studies Rules before TSR inc was formed, in the amount of $128
Tactical Studies Rules made sales totaling $56,638 in 1975 (they had many products in addition to D&D)
TSR inc bought Tactical Studies Rules for $14,800
Gygax's deposition begins on p. 48, largely the same as Blume's and claims that AD&D "is not largely copied nor wholly derived from" Dungeons & Dragons
Arneson's actual case begins on p. 70 and makes nine different separate (and somewhat contradictory) complaints
Arneson alleges that TSR inc is funneling profits to Gygax in the form of fees to his advertising agency (see his kind of creepy pictures of his daughter) and rent on offices owned by Gygax in Lake Geneva as a way to keep them from other shareholders
Arneson argues that even if AD&D isn't legally his work, it unfairly competes with his work (this seems like a mistake to have included)
He's asking for a lot of money - but D&D was pretty big by 1980. TSR inc really should have settled this in 78 but Arneson probably saw it taking off and was more than happy to delay his suit
Most of the rest of the first 100 pages is TSR inc sort of stonewalling Arneson and generally trying to have his argument dismissed as baseless. Page 97 begins a pretty amusing response to a request for a list of everything bearing the name Dungeons & Dragons. TSR inc lists Judges Guild, a couple different manufacturers of miniatures and dice and many magazines - which was really smart as a response since the request only asked them to list products they publish but by including a half dozen or more other companies publishing D&D material they heavily imply that it has become a collaborative community project. They're basically saying that Arneson could have been putting in real work over the last five years to establish himself as a writer, designer or publisher of D&D material but since he didn't, he's only entitled to his share of the original works and his dividends as a shareholder
Whew this is interesting and very definitive stuff. I'll come back to it but I need a break after 100 pages.
and
QuoteOkeedokee.
TSR Inc goes on to list the authors of each listed, published D&D item and shockingly denies Arneson is an author of even the original D&D materials, despite him being credited as co-author on the cover! "Dave Arneson's contribution to Dungeons & Dragons was, at most, a few ideas that did not constitute copyrightable subject matter and/or was in the public domain." Ouch! They do not deny his claim to royalties from the OD&D materials or the Basic Set though
They concede that Arneson is the author of Blackmoore but still add "actually created and authored principally by Brian Blume, Gary Gygax, Rob Kuntz, Steve Marsh and Tim Cask"
They give Arneson credit for the Dungeon Master's Index and his Judge's Guild "First Fantasy Campaign" version of Blackmoore which doesn't really have anything to do with TSR but is still an interesting product that I personally think is the best resource of Arneson's vision
TSR claims that terms like "relate" "consult" "theme" or "basic plot" are inadequately defined in the documents and can't answer conclusively if Arneson was consulted or his work related to theme and basic plot of current material
TSR refuses to disclose the actual sales figures for their products and objects to that discovery
Arneson actually demanded that TSR produce and deliver to him a copy of every published D&D item. TSR basically said "screw you, you can have access to our library if you want to review the materials"
A bunch of really specific and detailed questions about Gygax - what he does, who his business associates are and how much money he makes. Kind of reads like Arneson thinks he deserves everything Gygax has. Funny in hindsight since the Blumes would squeeze Gary our in a similar way just a few years later.
Arneson specifically records that he received royalties in the amount of about $12,400 for just the second half of 1978 - not bad if you ask me!
A lot of debate about if Arneson (and Barker) being from Minnesota constitutes TSR doing business in Minnesota or if Arneson must sue in Wisconsin court (he had to)
TSR explicitly denies that the Castles & Crusades Society played any real role in the creation of D&D
TSR denies that the OD&D booklets were ever copyrighted as a "book"
More details of the historical visit by Arneson to Gygax's home where a game in a "Dungeon" resembling Arneson's Castles & Crusades fief Blackmoore was played using Chainmail rules
TSR concedes that Arneson then sent Gygax a copy of his rules adapting Chainmail for Role Playing a few weeks later, described as "merely a few pages of handwritten material. Such material was not cohesive, cogent or even understandable" ouch! "Arneson never transmitted to Gygax anything which was printed, ver batim in the game rules for Dungeons & Dragons" "Realizing the material sent by Arneson was not printable or understandable, Gygax ... created, structured and wrote... Dungeons & Dragons"
TSR claims that Arneson never saw these rules before they went to print and was "mistakenly designated a co-author"
The majority of pages 100-200 are Arneson's attorneys filing tons of discovery requests basically trying to get TSR to hand over any and all business records and documents they have and TSR saying "screw you"
I wonder what would have happened if the split between the 2 never occurred and Arenson had remained an influence with his inchoate ideas with Gygax adding structure.
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on February 29, 2024, 12:26:21 AM
Now if only we can get a good scan of the full Domesday Map of The Great Kingdom & Environs that includes all the regions of 'Proto-Greyhawk'. We have the first map that shows many of the locations plus Dave Megarry's map that includes more. I want an actual map that shows all these locations, almost like the Darlene map. Hell, I would love a Folio that just gives us enough information about these locations. It would also be nice to link them to all the various Tournament versions like Tsojconth, Lost Tomoachan, etc.
I combined that with another DB map and colored it about 9 years ago: https://www.facebook.com/share/YwrN9aHZMv7tvZX9/?mibextid=WC7FNe
Allan.
Excellent stuff - the references to the Kingdom of Faraz and the County of Yerocundy (= Furyondy) shows it is nearer to the map that Andre Norton was working from when she wrote Quag Keep back in the day.
I have never fully grasped what the members of the Castles and Crusades Society did with this map - were they playing Chainmail against each other? - I know Walworth was Gary's fiefdom (being the county that Lake Geneva is in, in Wisconsin), Rob Kuntz was the king of the Great Kingdom and, obviously Ten and Blackmoor were Arneson's. I also assume Perrunland and Geoff were Jeff Perrin's lands - but were they all war gaming against each other?
Quote from: PencilBoy99 on February 29, 2024, 11:51:13 AM
I wonder what would have happened if the split between the 2 never occurred and Arenson had remained an influence with his inchoate ideas with Gygax adding structure.
Without the Blumes causing trouble its easy to see things might have gone differently between Gygax and Arneson.
Quote from: Omega on February 29, 2024, 05:48:38 PMWithout the Blumes causing trouble its easy to see things might have gone differently between Gygax and Arneson.
The real X-factor was the untimely and early death of Don Kaye. I wonder if TSR might not have been better under his care instead of the Blume Brothers...
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on February 29, 2024, 06:37:37 PM
Quote from: Omega on February 29, 2024, 05:48:38 PMWithout the Blumes causing trouble its easy to see things might have gone differently between Gygax and Arneson.
The real X-factor was the untimely and early death of Don Kaye. I wonder if TSR might not have been better under his care instead of the Blume Brothers...
Anything would have been better than being under the Blumes. Loraine Williams was better than being under the Blumes.
Quote from: Omega on February 29, 2024, 04:15:53 AM
A poster in this thread on Reddit gives some good breakdowns of the files in a few posts.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/1b253tf/original_dnd_transcript_and_gygax_arneson_case/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/1b253tf/original_dnd_transcript_and_gygax_arneson_case/)
For those that dont use Reddit heres the comments.
QuoteReviewing the case for interesting reference.
Much of Arneson's evidence seems to be paperwork retained by M.A.R Barker, author of Empire of the Petal Throne (published by TSR) and a confirmed author of Neo-Nazi literature
Peak Reddit, adding in the line about Barker. It's true, but completely irrelevant to the situation, and only useful to either impugn the credibility of the documentation or Arneson himself.
Quote from: El-V on February 29, 2024, 05:36:19 PM
Excellent stuff - the references to the Kingdom of Faraz and the County of Yerocundy (= Furyondy) shows it is nearer to the map that Andre Norton was working from when she wrote Quag Keep back in the day.
Yes, that's right, and it aligns with the backgrounds from the tourney versions of Tomb of Horrors (1975) and Tsojconth (1976).
Quote from: El-V on February 29, 2024, 05:36:19 PMI have never fully grasped what the members of the Castles and Crusades Society did with this map - were they playing Chainmail against each other?
That's basically my understanding, yes.
Allan.
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on February 29, 2024, 06:37:37 PM
The real X-factor was the untimely and early death of Don Kaye. I wonder if TSR might not have been better under his care instead of the Blume Brothers...
Yes, Rob has always talked about Kaye's untimely loss as the critical blow that sank TSR. In addition to instigating the involvement and corporate ownership of the Blumes, Don was one of the few who could talk with Gary and keep him in check, too.
This is detailed in part in Kuntz's tribute/memoir about Kaye, _Merlynd the Magician_, at https://www.tlbgames.com/collections/the-red-book-line/products/merlynd-the-magician
Allan.
Quote from: grodog on March 01, 2024, 12:13:28 PMDon was one of the few who could talk with Gary and keep him in check, too.
But to be fair, that was pre-coke fiend 'I'm a celebrity' Gary, so who knows?
Quote from: Grognard GM on March 02, 2024, 06:35:53 AMBut to be fair, that was pre-coke fiend 'I'm a celebrity' Gary, so who knows?
True, but maybe Kaye could have kept Gary from falling down that path and sent someone else to deal with Flint Dille and Lorraine Williams. With the Blume Bothers not running TSR into the ground, maybe it could have rebounded. No thanks to them we got the nonsensical
Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits that derailed the entire plot-line of
G1-3 Against the Giants and
D1-3 Descent into the Depths of the Earth where it was the Elder Elemental God worshiping Eilservs/Tormtor faction and not the Lolth worshipers that were organizing the giants to raid The Grand Duchy of Geoff and the Earldom of Sterich.
So reading Kaye's wiki bio, the part where he dies, and Blume says "hey, my dad can invest..." my brain immediately went:
(https://i.imgflip.com/54q8pn.png)
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 02, 2024, 06:44:51 AM
Flint Dille
I dunno, that dude doesn't seem like a dick or anything, he just saw an opportunity to get Buck Rogers back into public consciousness. And it's not like BR is some horseshit nonsense, it was literally one of the biggest scifi/pulp properties for a long time.
Quote from: Brad on March 03, 2024, 03:06:19 PM
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 02, 2024, 06:44:51 AM
Flint Dille
I dunno, that dude doesn't seem like a dick or anything, he just saw an opportunity to get Buck Rogers back into public consciousness. And it's not like BR is some horseshit nonsense, it was literally one of the biggest scifi/pulp properties for a long time.
According to folk at TSR at the time, Dille was into RPGs, but needed help writing the replacement BR RPG that cleaved closer to the original sources of the comics. And reading my notes it turns out I was wrong on one assumption and it was Flint who introduced his sister to Gygax and Gygax hired her for her managerial skills. Of course the Blumes fucked that up.
Thanks for posting this thread, and slicing away at the mystical nature of the upcoming WOTC release.
Please get more and more of the early D&D stuff, into the public domain. Bypass WOTC's ability to control it.
Bravo!!!
It's so interesting to see Arneson's side validated after so many years of people claiming he was some kind of know nothing.
At the last Arnecon we received a bunch of never seen material we are about to publish with the Arneson estate. This is the difference in how we work, the Arneson family will benefit from our next publication, unlike the new book by WOOTCIE which will not give any profit to the Arneson family.
In case you hadn't noticed, no love lost between WOTC and myself.
Reading the comments you've posted and pondering.
Also, WOTC got wind of the free files and shut down the source. So you can't get the files from the National Archive anymore, though I expect a lot of people are passing them around now.
To be fair, a great deal of the scanned material isn't even copy right as there are letters and magazine articles mixed into it all. But WOOTCIE has hard hitting lawyers.
While looking up Flint Dille I came across the Sagard the Barbarian gamebooks that he and Gygax worked on. Only been able to find one to glance at. Has a similar vibe to early Tunnels & Trolls solos.
Quote from: Secrets of Blackmoor on March 09, 2024, 12:27:58 PM
It's so interesting to see Arneson's side validated after so many years of people claiming he was some kind of know nothing.
I don't think anyone thought he was a know nothing, but more of a do nothing with his genius. How much work did he produce on his own? Basically an index to OD&D. All the rest (which isn't much) he seems to have needed a collaborator to actually get stuff written down and produced.
The biggest tragedy of the whole affair was that no one at TSR (past the initial days) really sat down and worked with him to translate his ideas and works into publishable material until the very end and the 4 Blackmoor modules we got
I always thought D&D was Gygax + Arneson, but Gygax doing most of it.
However, I've heard elsewhere that Arneson brought that overland travel, plus Braunstein (not to discard Wesley of course), plus ability scores, maybe HP and AC.
I think Gygax did the dungeons part, and chainmail.
Is that right? what else do we have for sure?
Quote from: Eric Diaz on March 11, 2024, 11:43:28 AM
I always thought D&D was Gygax + Arneson, but Gygax doing most of it.
However, I've heard elsewhere that Arneson brought that overland travel, plus Braunstein (not to discard Wesley of course), plus ability scores, maybe HP and AC.
I think Gygax did the dungeons part, and chainmail.
Is that right? what else do we have for sure?
Honestly I see this as over-correction, like some people do with Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.
Stan had his name on everything because he was the outgoing salesman, and folks were correct to demand Jack get recognition for his work. But then people (being people) overshot, and now people unironically want to paint Lee as a figurehead that stole ideas.
It's still Gygax's game, we just have to acknowledge he had a couple of lesser, but important creative partners.
Quote from: Grognard GM on March 11, 2024, 12:04:52 PMIt's still Gygax's game, we just have to acknowledge he had a couple of lesser, but important creative partners.
I always try to break it down thusly:
Godfather of Roleplaying Games: Dave Wesely
Father of Roleplaying Games: Dave Arneson
Creator of Dungeons & Dragons: E. Gary Gygax
If people cannot acknowledge that Gygax is the reason we have D&D, then they're being insane. Arneson certainly contributed, but Gygax is the reason we play now, whereas it probably would have remained some small niche hobby for years on end. But Arneson is not solely the 'hero' either. If not for Dave Wesely and the Braunstein game, Arneson might not have made Blackmoor.
Quote from: JeremyR on March 10, 2024, 10:00:39 PM
...
I don't think anyone thought he was a know nothing, but more of a do nothing with his genius. How much work did he produce on his own? Basically an index to OD&D. All the rest (which isn't much) he seems to have needed a collaborator to actually get stuff written down and produced.
...
That is my impression as well.
Arneson was more of a "big idea" kind of genius. He clearly needed help to translate his thoughts/notes to an useable product.
Arneson's idea was lightning. But it took Gygax to do the work, refine it, put it in the bottle, and release it out into the world.
But I must give credit where credit is due:
Making the creative transition from a wargaming braunstein, to RPG's as we know them today
is clearly not as straightforward as many would have people believe.
"People were dabbling in similar stuff..." "RPG's would have eventually been made by someone..." "Blah blah blah..."D&D only had competitors
After they first saw D&D...
Yes, after you've seen it, it is a very replicable idea. But some very smart, very creative people, only took up RPG's when they saw Arneson's game/D&D first. Including Dave Wesely.
Arneson was
the one that saw it in his mind, and did it.
Everyone else (no matter how conceptually close people try to argue that they got), did jack shit until they saw D&D on the shelf.
Period.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on March 11, 2024, 11:43:28 AM
I always thought D&D was Gygax + Arneson, but Gygax doing most of it.
However, I've heard elsewhere that Arneson brought that overland travel, plus Braunstein (not to discard Wesley of course), plus ability scores, maybe HP and AC.
I think Gygax did the dungeons part, and chainmail.
Is that right? what else do we have for sure?
Pretty sure Arneson was the one who came up with the idea of the "dungeon" as a playing field. It was an evolution of David Wesely's "Braunstein" games. He was using dungeon exploration at least as early as 1972, maybe sooner, and definitely before he showed Gygax what he'd been doing.
Without Gygax Arneson would have been a Sears security guard playing his war game knockoff until death. RPGs wouldn't exist, probably, and there wouldn't be furry conventions. So maybe we should hate Gygax for a different reason.
I don't like to take sides and point fingers. I see both Arneson and Gygax as great creators. If these two fellows had never met then we might never have had D&D as we know it. Dave invited Gary to play Blackmoor and a whole new hobby was born. We don't know what Gary may have come up with had he never played Blackmooor, and if Gary had never played the the Blackmoor game it would have probably just been a quirkly little game played by Dave and his friends. It took both the peanut butter AND the chocolate to make the perfect Reese's D&D.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 11, 2024, 09:13:24 PM
I don't like to take sides and point fingers. I see both Arneson and Gygax as great creators. If these two fellows had never met then we might never have had D&D as we know it. Dave invited Gary to play Blackmoor and a whole new hobby was born. We don't know what Gary may have come up with had he never played Blackmooor, and if Gary had never played the the Blackmoor game it would have probably just been a quirkly little game played by Dave and his friends. It took both the peanut butter AND the chocolate to make the perfect Reese's D&D.
Greetings!
I agree entirely, my friend. I have never understood why some people get all worked up about this. It is not a super complex or difficult subject to understand. Just like you said--Peanut Butter and Chocolate, to make Reese's D&D. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK