Quote from: Brad on February 27, 2024, 04:35:39 PMAlso depositions by the Blumes, can an actual lawyer please read this crap? All I can pick out is they claim TSR didn't do business in Minnesota, which somehow implies Arneson wasn't legally able to sue them? Also, they state specifically 5% royalties for LBBs, even though there is an agreement for 10%, the same one that MAR Barker got. Starting to seem more and more like they were fucking shysters.

QuoteReviewing the case for interesting reference.

    Page 18 has 1975 TSR Letterhead

    Much of Arneson's evidence seems to be paperwork retained by M.A.R Barker, author of Empire of the Petal Throne (published by TSR) and a confirmed author of Neo-Nazi literature

    Brian Blume's deposition explaining the business details of Tactical Studies Rules becoming TSR inc. begins on page 26 it also includes breakdowns of hours spent by Gygax vs TSR staff on production of the AD&D core rulebooks and the early modules

    Blume basically argues that being a shareholder in TSR inc constitutes Arneson's share of the proceeds from D&D and that (especially in lieu of him doing any work for TSR inc) the old "Percent of Sales" agreement he had with Tactical Studies Rules does not apply to later editions. I think this is a pretty important thing to note, that Arneson as a stockholder was still enjoying dividends from the growth of the corporation.

    Arneson got one royalty check from Tactical Studies Rules before TSR inc was formed, in the amount of $128

    Tactical Studies Rules made sales totaling $56,638 in 1975 (they had many products in addition to D&D)

    TSR inc bought Tactical Studies Rules for $14,800

    Gygax's deposition begins on p. 48, largely the same as Blume's and claims that AD&D "is not largely copied nor wholly derived from" Dungeons & Dragons

    Arneson's actual case begins on p. 70 and makes nine different separate (and somewhat contradictory) complaints

    Arneson alleges that TSR inc is funneling profits to Gygax in the form of fees to his advertising agency (see his kind of creepy pictures of his daughter) and rent on offices owned by Gygax in Lake Geneva as a way to keep them from other shareholders

    Arneson argues that even if AD&D isn't legally his work, it unfairly competes with his work (this seems like a mistake to have included)

    He's asking for a lot of money - but D&D was pretty big by 1980. TSR inc really should have settled this in 78 but Arneson probably saw it taking off and was more than happy to delay his suit

    Most of the rest of the first 100 pages is TSR inc sort of stonewalling Arneson and generally trying to have his argument dismissed as baseless. Page 97 begins a pretty amusing response to a request for a list of everything bearing the name Dungeons & Dragons. TSR inc lists Judges Guild, a couple different manufacturers of miniatures and dice and many magazines - which was really smart as a response since the request only asked them to list products they publish but by including a half dozen or more other companies publishing D&D material they heavily imply that it has become a collaborative community project. They're basically saying that Arneson could have been putting in real work over the last five years to establish himself as a writer, designer or publisher of D&D material but since he didn't, he's only entitled to his share of the original works and his dividends as a shareholder

Whew this is interesting and very definitive stuff. I'll come back to it but I need a break after 100 pages.

QuoteOkeedokee.

    TSR Inc goes on to list the authors of each listed, published D&D item and shockingly denies Arneson is an author of even the original D&D materials, despite him being credited as co-author on the cover! "Dave Arneson's contribution to Dungeons & Dragons was, at most, a few ideas that did not constitute copyrightable subject matter and/or was in the public domain." Ouch! They do not deny his claim to royalties from the OD&D materials or the Basic Set though

    They concede that Arneson is the author of Blackmoore but still add "actually created and authored principally by Brian Blume, Gary Gygax, Rob Kuntz, Steve Marsh and Tim Cask"

    They give Arneson credit for the Dungeon Master's Index and his Judge's Guild "First Fantasy Campaign" version of Blackmoore which doesn't really have anything to do with TSR but is still an interesting product that I personally think is the best resource of Arneson's vision

    TSR claims that terms like "relate" "consult" "theme" or "basic plot" are inadequately defined in the documents and can't answer conclusively if Arneson was consulted or his work related to theme and basic plot of current material

    TSR refuses to disclose the actual sales figures for their products and objects to that discovery

    Arneson actually demanded that TSR produce and deliver to him a copy of every published D&D item. TSR basically said "screw you, you can have access to our library if you want to review the materials"

    A bunch of really specific and detailed questions about Gygax - what he does, who his business associates are and how much money he makes. Kind of reads like Arneson thinks he deserves everything Gygax has. Funny in hindsight since the Blumes would squeeze Gary our in a similar way just a few years later.

    Arneson specifically records that he received royalties in the amount of about $12,400 for just the second half of 1978 - not bad if you ask me!

    A lot of debate about if Arneson (and Barker) being from Minnesota constitutes TSR doing business in Minnesota or if Arneson must sue in Wisconsin court (he had to)

    TSR explicitly denies that the Castles & Crusades Society played any real role in the creation of D&D

    TSR denies that the OD&D booklets were ever copyrighted as a "book"

    More details of the historical visit by Arneson to Gygax's home where a game in a "Dungeon" resembling Arneson's Castles & Crusades fief Blackmoore was played using Chainmail rules

    TSR concedes that Arneson then sent Gygax a copy of his rules adapting Chainmail for Role Playing a few weeks later, described as "merely a few pages of handwritten material. Such material was not cohesive, cogent or even understandable" ouch! "Arneson never transmitted to Gygax anything which was printed, ver batim in the game rules for Dungeons & Dragons" "Realizing the material sent by Arneson was not printable or understandable, Gygax ... created, structured and wrote... Dungeons & Dragons"

    TSR claims that Arneson never saw these rules before they went to print and was "mistakenly designated a co-author"

The majority of pages 100-200 are Arneson's attorneys filing tons of discovery requests basically trying to get TSR to hand over any and all business records and documents they have and TSR saying "screw you"

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on February 29, 2024, 12:26:21 AM
Now if only we can get a good scan of the full Domesday Map of The Great Kingdom & Environs that includes all the regions of 'Proto-Greyhawk'. We have the first map that shows many of the locations plus Dave Megarry's map that includes more. I want an actual map that shows all these locations, almost like the Darlene map. Hell, I would love a Folio that just gives us enough information about these locations. It would also be nice to link them to all the various Tournament versions like Tsojconth, Lost Tomoachan, etc.

Quote from: PencilBoy99 on February 29, 2024, 11:51:13 AM
I wonder what would have happened if the split between the 2 never occurred and Arenson had remained an influence with his inchoate ideas with Gygax adding structure.

Quote from: Omega on February 29, 2024, 05:48:38 PMWithout the Blumes causing trouble its easy to see things might have gone differently between Gygax and Arneson.

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on February 29, 2024, 06:37:37 PM

Quote from: Omega on February 29, 2024, 05:48:38 PMWithout the Blumes causing trouble its easy to see things might have gone differently between Gygax and Arneson.

The real X-factor was the untimely and early death of Don Kaye. I wonder if TSR might not have been better under his care instead of the Blume Brothers...

Quote from: Omega on February 29, 2024, 04:15:53 AM
A poster in this thread on Reddit gives some good breakdowns of the files in a few posts.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/1b253tf/original_dnd_transcript_and_gygax_arneson_case/

For those that dont use Reddit heres the comments.

QuoteReviewing the case for interesting reference.


    Much of Arneson's evidence seems to be paperwork retained by M.A.R Barker, author of Empire of the Petal Throne (published by TSR) and a confirmed author of Neo-Nazi literature

   

Quote from: El-V on February 29, 2024, 05:36:19 PM
Excellent stuff - the references to the Kingdom of Faraz and the County of Yerocundy (= Furyondy) shows it is nearer to the map that Andre Norton was working from when she wrote Quag Keep back in the day.

Quote from: El-V on February 29, 2024, 05:36:19 PMI have never fully grasped what the members of the Castles and Crusades Society did with this map - were they playing Chainmail against each other?

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on February 29, 2024, 06:37:37 PM
The real X-factor was the untimely and early death of Don Kaye. I wonder if TSR might not have been better under his care instead of the Blume Brothers...

Quote from: grodog on March 01, 2024, 12:13:28 PMDon was one of the few who could talk with Gary and keep him in check, too.

Quote from: Grognard GM on March 02, 2024, 06:35:53 AMBut to be fair, that was pre-coke fiend 'I'm a celebrity' Gary, so who knows?