Quote from: VisionStorm on July 20, 2023, 05:09:28 PM
Not sure if this is what they mean, but for me at least, the entire point of RPGs is getting to create my own character.

Then once you know how to play the NEW game (from learning how via a simple to play pre-gen) make your own.  Why would that not be able to happen? 

Quote from: Scooter on July 20, 2023, 12:20:54 PMWith a ready made character getting someone playing within 15 minutes is easy for most games I'd think. 

Agreed. But two points. Firstly, with more complex systems the player won't always understand everything that's on the sheet. Secondly, a player who creates their own character (in whatever system) has a greater sense of investment in the game, and is more likely to show up for a second session.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on July 20, 2023, 09:22:45 PM

Quote from: Scooter on July 20, 2023, 12:20:54 PMWith a ready made character getting someone playing within 15 minutes is easy for most games I'd think. 

Agreed. But two points. Firstly, with more complex systems the player won't always understand everything that's on the sheet. Secondly, a player who creates their own character (in whatever system) has a greater sense of investment in the game, and is more likely to show up for a second session.

Yeah, it's about personal investment. Once you put time into creating your own character you have skin in the game. If you don't keep playing them all that effort will be wasted. Creating a character also forces you to think about your character and (to an extend) their place in the game world, which helps build a stronger connection to them than just being handed a premade character you might not even like. Using pregens as an introduction to new players sort of robs them of that experience.

Pregens could still work, I suppose. But I see them more as something to have handy in case random people show up and there's no time create characters, or for conventions and such.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on July 20, 2023, 09:22:45 PM

Quote from: Scooter on July 20, 2023, 12:20:54 PMWith a ready made character getting someone playing within 15 minutes is easy for most games I'd think. 

Agreed. But two points. Firstly, with more complex systems the player won't always understand everything that's on the sheet. Secondly, a player who creates their own character (in whatever system) has a greater sense of investment in the game, and is more likely to show up for a second session.

You aren't following the thread: 1) There is no need to understand EVERYTHING the first session.  2) This is about getting a new person playing within 15 minutes.

Don't create straw man arguments in reply to my points.

Got to agree with Scooter here.  There are different things that capture players' interests.  Some players are really into the "building" of the character.  I have a few of those in my home group.  But that tends to come after they've already caught the RPG bug.  Many of the new players in my school RPG club are more interested in the fantasy and roleplaying aspect.  If it took thirty or forty-five minutes for them to get started in the game, they'd be out after the first week.  Most of those players get captured by the roleplay, so you want to get them playing as quickly as possible.  Pregens are far more likely to sell the game than building a character... especially in systems like Pathfinder or 3e...

This thread made me remember the "early days" (1977).  Our DM kept a few basic characters on hand.  Because sometimes one of the players would bring an interested person to the game.  Back then no one knew about D&D.  So our DM would give the player who brought the person the char sheet and have him teach the new player while the game was going.  Since it was a role playing game that was easy because you start by asking the new player what they want their PC to do in reaction to what is happening in the game; you just help them do it. 

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on July 20, 2023, 09:22:45 PM
Agreed. But two points. Firstly, with more complex systems the player won't always understand everything that's on the sheet. Secondly, a player who creates their own character (in whatever system) has a greater sense of investment in the game, and is more likely to show up for a second session.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 21, 2023, 04:44:39 PMPregens are far more likely to sell the game than building a character... especially in systems like Pathfinder or 3e...

So two things are going on here, and both are true. It's true that more complex games work better with pregens (HERO comes to mind...the game itself is actually pretty fucking easy when you get down to brass tacks, but making a character is a game unto itself), while it's also true that players will tend to be more interested in games they created a character for.

Which is why most of us who are still in this hobby after years and years probably started with something like Mentzer D&D or whatever, got invested in RPGs as a whole, then moved on to systems we thought were better and then gained system mastery. Creating that first character yourself is A LOT different than simply being handed a character sheet; yeah, the second one will pique your interest, but you really need the first one as well to get the ball rolling so to speak. Hand-holding when teaching someone a new game is nothing new, but eventually you gotta take the training wheels off to see if they're legitimately interested, or just merely kinda sorta into it and will casually play but yeah who cares. There's nothing wrong with the second kind of player whatsoever, but it's a wide gap between that and the addicts like anyone posting on this board.

That said, I still prefer to do character generation even for newbies simply because it teaches them stuff about the game you cannot get strictly through play.

The issue with more complex systems as a whole is that there are just so many more mechanics on the players side. Hand someone a B/X pregen fighter and all they need to do is describe what they want to do and the DM handles it.

Contrast to a 3.5 pregen fighter:

"OK FNG it's your turn, what do you want to do?'

" I wanna do what Joe just did on his turn!"

" Sorry you can't do that. You don't have that feat."

" Can I get that feat? I see I have a couple feats on my sheet can I just swap out one for that one?'

" Um not really. You don't have the pre-reqs for that. Your Dex is only 11"

" So when can I get a higher DEX?"

" To qualify for that feat you would need to put 2 points in it so not until level 8."

" Wow ok, then I can get it?"

" Not exactly there are other feats you have to take first. Your fighter isn't built like that."

Other players " zzzzzzzzzz"

So pre gens are not exactly a cure all for mechanical bloat.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on July 21, 2023, 06:11:51 PM
So pre gens are not exactly a cure all for mechanical bloat.

The real problem of mechanical bloat is not being able to do something unless its on the character sheet, instead of being able to do something better because its on the character sheet. Free form vs button pushing, "What do you do?" vs "What ability do you activate?"

Quote from: Wisithir on July 21, 2023, 07:39:56 PM
The real problem of mechanical bloat is not being able to do something unless its on the character sheet, instead of being able to do something better because its on the character sheet. Free form vs button pushing, "What do you do?" vs "What ability do you activate?"

Which is why I like C&C.  Each class has their extraordinary abilities that cannot be used unless your class has them listed but the "skills" are free form.  Tied to attributes. Which are either a Prime or non-prime for your character.   So if you want to try something you tell the GM and he decides what attribute would be used to pull it off and assigns a difficulty.  The player then rolls die and away you go. You character isn't in a rule straight-jacket like in D&D or PF

Quote from: Exploderwizard on July 21, 2023, 06:11:51 PM
The issue with more complex systems as a whole is that there are just so many more mechanics on the players side. Hand someone a B/X pregen fighter and all they need to do is describe what they want to do and the DM handles it.

Contrast to a 3.5 pregen fighter:

"OK FNG it's your turn, what do you want to do?'

" I wanna do what Joe just did on his turn!"

" Sorry you can't do that. You don't have that feat."

" Can I get that feat? I see I have a couple feats on my sheet can I just swap out one for that one?'

" Um not really. You don't have the pre-reqs for that. Your Dex is only 11"

" So when can I get a higher DEX?"

" To qualify for that feat you would need to put 2 points in it so not until level 8."

" Wow ok, then I can get it?"

" Not exactly there are other feats you have to take first. Your fighter isn't built like that."

Other players " zzzzzzzzzz"

So pre gens are not exactly a cure all for mechanical bloat.

As opposed to: "You can't do that ever, because you don't have the right class and multi/dual classing isn't a thing (B/X) or you don't meet the racial or ability score requirements (AD&D)"?

Also, how often are actions being gated behind a feat even a thing? I know 3.X fucked up by making certain common combat options Feats, which is moronic. But that's a 3.X exclusive not found in any other game I'm aware of (other games only gate actual special abilities behind Feats/Advantages, if at all, which players shouldn't bitch that they don't have, and if they do, they'll bitch about not having class-specific stuff as well). And how often does this come up in actual play?

Plus B/X doesn't even have many of those combat options that I recall anyway and you have zero guarantee that the DM would allow or even know how to handle whatever it is you want to do. So it's not like handing it off to the DM isn't a magic cure all.

Quote from: Brad on July 21, 2023, 05:20:19 PM
That said, I still prefer to do character generation even for newbies simply because it teaches them stuff about the game you cannot get strictly through play.

True, game mechanics and procedure can be an effective terse form of communicating what the setting and campaign are like and what characters can do.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on July 21, 2023, 06:11:51 PM
The issue with more complex systems as a whole is that there are just so many more mechanics on the players side. Hand someone a B/X pregen fighter and all they need to do is describe what they want to do and the DM handles it.

Contrast to a 3.5 pregen fighter:

The problem I found with 3.X is that there is too much of a game built into a system. Because that there are elements that only make sense in terms of the game being played rather than as if you were imagining what you would do if you there in that moment as the character.

While GURPS has it issues with complexity, one of the strengths it has that the detail isn't arbitrary it reflect either the reality of how things work in life or reality of how thing were described in some fictional setting especially when it comes to magic and other fantastic abilities.

So all a novice player needs to know for a GURPS campaign is how things work in life or within that setting (for example Conan versus King Arthur versus Vampire the Masquerade). They can describe things as if they imagine they were there as character. The referee has the tools to translate into a series of rolls that make sense given what the players want to do. If something work better in life or the fictional setting then it will work better using the GURPS rules.

However, what it really boils down to is the referee's ability to translate what the players describe into a ruling and then rolling accordingly. This is why minimal systems can work perfectly fine in addition to detailed systems like GURPS. This is how I made OD&D in the form of my Majestic Fantasy RPG work for me for how I run my fantasy medieval setting.

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2023, 07:13:49 AM

As opposed to: "You can't do that ever, because you don't have the right class and multi/dual classing isn't a thing (B/X) or you don't meet the racial or ability score requirements (AD&D)"?

Also, how often are actions being gated behind a feat even a thing? I know 3.X fucked up by making certain common combat options Feats, which is moronic. But that's a 3.X exclusive not found in any other game I'm aware of (other games only gate actual special abilities behind Feats/Advantages, if at all, which players shouldn't bitch that they don't have, and if they do, they'll bitch about not having class-specific stuff as well). And how often does this come up in actual play?

Plus B/X doesn't even have many of those combat options that I recall anyway and you have zero guarantee that the DM would allow or even know how to handle whatever it is you want to do. So it's not like handing it off to the DM isn't a magic cure all.

Only? I won't even go into 4E, that would be too easy. Lets look at 5E. Feats are indeed an optional rule so I won't use those. Generallly you want the new player to start off with the simplist class to play, which in classic D&D is the fighter. In 5E the closest model of that is the champion achetype. Now lets contrast that with a player who may already be playing a fighter of the battle master archetype, a more complex fighter with both short rest and long rest abilities to manage. I am not going to spell out the example of play but it would be similar to 3.X

Now, regarding B/X or OD&D when using a pre-gen (which is our assumption here) there is no issue of qualifying. The already created character takes care of that. B/X and OD&D have as many combat options as the player can think of. The chance of success depends on what they want to do. This example assumes a new player joining a group with an experienced DM who knows how to run the game in both classic and newer D&D examples.

I like the classic game because you are engaging the setting and circumstances when deciding what to do, not a menu on a character sheet. In WOTC versions players barely take notice of the setting and just choose a menu option. Sadly in my current situation if I want to play classic D&D then I have to DM.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on July 22, 2023, 09:37:05 AM
I like the classic game because you are engaging the setting and circumstances when deciding what to do, not a menu on a character sheet. In WOTC versions players barely take notice of the setting and just choose a menu option. Sadly in my current situation if I want to play classic D&D then I have to DM.

Then play a modern version of D&D that isn't WotC