I got the weekend off and spent time with my friends, who being late middle aged and married, have teenage boys who are currently enjoying DnD 3.x. When the boys were told about DnD 4th coming out next year, their reactions were the same. Wide-eyed excitement and declarations of "That'll be awesome! I can't wait!"
Then, having smelled geek on me, the boys at each different household spent the rest of the time I was visiting trying to tell me about their coolest character, setting, homebrew, and houserule.
So, I left with two conclusions.
1) This is WotC's target demographic, the younger male gamers. Not older gamers.
2) If you have never overenthusiasticly tormented someone with your tales of your favorite character, setting, homebrew, or houserule, then you are not a gamer geek or have never been young. :)
Yes, these may be all obvious, but its nice to be reminded that there is a next generation once in awhile.
I am not 15. I am 25.
My reaction might not be as excited, but inside me, I feel the same. I can't wait. And I think it is awesome. So how do I fit in the demographics?
Quote from: AlnagI am not 15. I am 25.
My reaction might not be as excited, but inside me, I feel the same. I can't wait. And I think it is awesome. So how do I fit in the demographics?
Alnag, I think you are still part of the target demographic, the part that has more money than the teenagers but just as much enthusiasm.
And yes, I'm looking forward to this too - but more out of curiosity than anything else.
My fiends are all pissed about 4th edition (I'm 25), and none of us play D&D.
I'm gonna buy all three core books, of course...
All my casual RPG buddies either shrugged or were underwhelmed. One girl hit the nail on the hat: "Why? [cue most sincere and naive tone] Is there something wrong with the current edition?".
Apparently, I only invest in the odd-numbered editions . . .
Quote from: SettembriniIs there something wrong with the current edition?
The question is, why should there be something wrong? Does older design concepts of say cars of fashion or food not work? No, and yet we still have new types of cars, new fashion products and new kinds of food all the time. Everything proceeds forwards not because there is something wrong with the old things but just because it is human nature to switch from product A to product B sooner or later...
Raise hand anybody who always buy a new thing only if the old one is irreparably broken, please.
I'm 32 and excited about it.
But you're right - the target demographic is fairly young. Over on another board, they were noting that the average age of RPG web board users is significantly higher than the average age of gamers.
Web boards are not their target demographic. Heck, ENWorld isn't even their target demographic. This board is absolutely not representative of gamers. (Note how many women post here, for instance.)
-O
I'm excited about it. My older kid is very excited about it.
Please elaborate on your arousal!
What does get your juices flowing?
The one thing I AM excited about is the fact that they seem to be bringing out new Miniatures for new people. That is there´l be all the basic stuff again.
I nice place to join in for me.
Quote from: AlnagRaise hand anybody who always buy a new thing only if the old one is irreparably broken, please.
Only when the issue is function. I wear my cloathing until it begins to look bad, replace my computer when it breaks, and only buy a new car if my old one dies.
That's not how I am with media, though. Nor are most people. I change up just to change up. I go back to playing old game when I want to. I listen to old and new music. But I buy new because it's different, and provides a new experience. And I want in on new experiences.
Quote from: jeff379232) If you have never overenthusiasticly tormented someone with your tales of your favorite character, setting, homebrew, or houserule, then you are not a gamer geek or have never been young. :)
I'm usually on the other end of that 3 to 4 times a week at the game store. Some of these people need help.....at telling stories in an entertainng.
There is one tho, her name is Robin - I don't mind listening to her srtories. (even if they are
RIFTS related.)
- Ed C.
Quote from: Thanatos02Only when the issue is function. I wear my cloathing until it begins to look bad, replace my computer when it breaks, and only buy a new car if my old one dies.
That's not how I am with media, though. Nor are most people. I change up just to change up. I go back to playing old game when I want to. I listen to old and new music. But I buy new because it's different, and provides a new experience. And I want in on new experiences.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Except for a select few, the RPGs on my shelves are as enjoyable (if a little dated) as the day I bought them. Information and knowledge don't wear out like your shoes, fridges and cars. :p
Unless they totally break D&D, I'll buy 4e.
Quote from: stu2000Apparently, I only invest in the odd-numbered editions . . .
me too. kind of like an inverse star trek movie phenomenon.
38 and "meh." i'm certainly no longer in the target demographic :what: (need a doddering old man smiley!)
Well, let's hope your anecdote holds true more than just anecdotally. I really do hope that the Wizards guys have tapped into the right blend to create serious appeal among the teens out there, and bring a whole new generation of gamers. I'm willing to have 4e be a game I don't care for much personally, if it will accomplish that.
RPGPundit
Quote from: beeberme too. kind of like an inverse star trek movie phenomenon.
38 and "meh." i'm certainly no longer in the target demographic :what: (need a doddering old man smiley!)
I'd just use this. :)
(http://www.channel4.com/film/media/images/Channel4/film/G/gangs_of_new_york_xl_01--film-B.jpg)
I'm excited and I'm 30. I never really liked 3.5 that much, it was OK but it didn't really make me wan to play. Too much work to GM as well. Now it sounds like 4E might be more like Saga Edition SW which I liked quite a lot. Much more fast playing and easier to GM.
I'm excited to hear that kids are excited. Otherwise, not so much.
Still I wonder what it is that excited them. Are they just projecting their own enthusiasm for the game into the expectation that a new edition will be "more of whatever they like", or were they reacting to actual facts about the changes in 4e?
About tastes in stuff, I find that there's lots of good new stuff, lots of bad new stuff, and of course lots of good old stuff--much of which I haven't yet experienced. It's never too late to listen to Jimi Hendrix the first time.
Quote from: AlnagThe question is, why should there be something wrong? Does older design concepts of say cars of fashion or food not work? No, and yet we still have new types of cars, new fashion products and new kinds of food all the time. Everything proceeds forwards not because there is something wrong with the old things but just because it is human nature to switch from product A to product B sooner or later...
Raise hand anybody who always buy a new thing only if the old one is irreparably broken, please.
False analogy.
You can't just go out and buy a new 1955 Chevy, no matter how much you want to. You can buy a restored '55 chevy or a piece of junk '55 chevy, but those are high maintenance items - you are paying high prices for a refurbished collector's item. I would have happily replaced my 2003 Chevy Venture with a 2006 Chevy Venture, but I couldn't. That model was cancelled. I had to buy a 2006 Chevy Uplander instead. Not half as good a car IMO - YMMV. See what I mean?
RPGs, on the other hand, play just as well today as they did 30 years ago. Exactly as well, with no more than casual care to keep the book from falling apart.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceRPGs, on the other hand, play just as well today as they did 30 years ago. Exactly as well, with no more than casual care to keep the book from falling apart.
And since TSR printed a bajillion copies of AD&D 1e and 2e, there's plenty of them in good condition to go around yet.
Quote from: jgantsAnd since TSR printed a bajillion copies of AD&D 1e and 2e, there's plenty of them in good condition to go around yet.
This, by the way, is why I describe tabletop RPG as capital goods mislabeled and misunderstood to be consumer goods. Consumer goods don't last generations.
Quote from: McrowI'm excited and I'm 30. I never really liked 3.5 that much, it was OK but it didn't really make me wan to play. Too much work to GM as well. Now it sounds like 4E might be more like Saga Edition SW which I liked quite a lot. Much more fast playing and easier to GM.
29 in about a month and I echo this sentiment.
Yeah, well I'm 25, and I want 4e less and less with every word that comes out of the devs' mouth. Where does that put me in your fucking demographic?
I'm sure 4e will sell fine initially amongst the general audience that doesn't keep abreast of the changes, the folks who, as Elliot implies, don't really know about 4e, they jsut know they like 3e and want more.
That's the way it goes with any sequel to popular product. The writing may well be on the wall to the folks online, but the rest of the market hasn't read a word of it, and will buy on brand recgonition alone, enough to give a pretty damn big chunk of sales, and once those sales are made, a good chunk of people will still stick with it even if it isn't that great because of the general market momentum.
It generally takes a pretty healthy amount of suck to totally kill a property, and even though the design philosophy seems to be to go through 3.5 and earlier and start tossing every last thing in the trash but the class names and the concept of character levels, it may still not be enough for the present market to reject the property completely.
Quote from: Elliot WilenI'm excited to hear that kids are excited. Otherwise, not so much.
Still I wonder what it is that excited them. Are they just projecting their own enthusiasm for the game into the expectation that a new edition will be "more of whatever they like", or were they reacting to actual facts about the changes in 4e?
The kids didn't know the details of DnD 4, they were just excited that a new version was coming out. I think they were excited because they believe that "new" means "new and improved" to them.
Also, and I'll ask them about this, I wonder if they look at DnD 3.x as the last generation's DnD and DnD 4 will be their generation's DnD. The enthusiasm may be a social identity thing.
You make an interesting point there Jeff. I can just imagine those same kids, twenty-five years from now...crowded around the touchtable...
Dad: "Damn, but I can remember when the Dungeon Master was _human_, and I'm telling you, 4e is where it was at! It was all downhill from there, son."
Other Dad: *nods fervently*
Teenage Kid: "Dad, you don't play D&D Xt11 with a human DM. A human DM would cheat."
Dad: "And we had real miniatures back then! Well, we went back to them after we realised the DI was buggy as all hell. This holographic stuff, there's no weight to it!"
Teenage Kid: "Pop, just press the display and roll up your Half-Draciniakian Paladin-Assassin, the others will be here any minute."
Dad: *sigh*
- Q
Quote from: KoltarI'm usually on the other end of that 3 to 4 times a week at the game store. Some of these people need help.....at telling stories in an entertainng.
- Ed C.
I've been there, it just comes with the territory.
Quote from: J ArcaneYeah, well I'm 25, and I want 4e less and less with every word that comes out of the devs' mouth. Where does that put me in your fucking demographic?
I'm sure 4e will sell fine initially amongst the general audience that doesn't keep abreast of the changes, the folks who, as Elliot implies, don't really know about 4e, they jsut know they like 3e and want more.
That's the way it goes with any sequel to popular product. The writing may well be on the wall to the folks online, but the rest of the market hasn't read a word of it, and will buy on brand recgonition alone, enough to give a pretty damn big chunk of sales, and once those sales are made, a good chunk of people will still stick with it even if it isn't that great because of the general market momentum.
It generally takes a pretty healthy amount of suck to totally kill a property, and even though the design philosophy seems to be to go through 3.5 and earlier and start tossing every last thing in the trash but the class names and the concept of character levels, it may still not be enough for the present market to reject the property completely.
Grognard. Bitchy fellow who may well be happy with what they have, but have some really irritating penchant for thinking that different opionions are personal slights or signs of stupidity.
D&D for me is a whole family of games. Each edition has its own thing to offer and you know what's great about that? You can pretty much take the edition you like and play away, and that's cool by me and the other 99% of well-adjusted gamers out there. Only real assholes get bent out of shape because someone else somewhere is not playing
their version of the game.
I totally understand that complaint is one of the primary modes of internet discussion, but most of the time I just don't
get it. This is one of them. :wtfsign:
I think it's pretty ridiculous to tell me my opinion is fucking invalid because I'm "too old". I'm hardly into walkers and Depends territory at the moment. The core concept of this thread is pretty monumentally insulting.
And I hardly think "grognard" is even a really accurate term to describe someone who loves and enjoys the edition of a game that is still selling, on store shelves all over the fucking world.
It has nothing to do with age, it has nothing to do with anything, so much as it has to do with me exercising a little reading comprehension and reading what the fuck has been written, and realizing it's pretty clear that the approach at this point is to tear apart everything about said current edition for no other reason than the poisonous myth of "progress in RPGs".
And what gets my goat the most? I finally found a mainstream game again with 3e that I could really get into, and now I'm basically being told, both by the new guard, and countless fans online, to fuck off. I've gone from finally getting into a game that I could count on to find players anywhere in the world, to being ghettoized as a "grognard".
Fuck that, and fuck you, you miserable cunt.
Quote from: McrowI'm excited and I'm 30. I never really liked 3.5 that much, it was OK but it didn't really make me wan to play. Too much work to GM as well. Now it sounds like 4E might be more like Saga Edition SW which I liked quite a lot. Much more fast playing and easier to GM.
There hasn't been any concrete information that would indicate 4th edition will be significantly quicker or easier.
I was really excited when they said in the presentation that it would be more GM-friendly. But so far it seems to be the usual PR-bullshit. They're certainly moving around the layers of complexity but the complexity looks similar so far.
I'm going to keep an open mind as I would really like for this edition to work but I'm not holding my breath. Especially not with that team of designers.
I'm not surprised. At that age, I was in love with the very novelty of a new release, beyond the actual (or even advertised) content. It was New Stuff! It had to be good!
It was Rifts, I think, that broke me of this sort of consuming for the sake of consuming relationship with gaming product.
Quote from: J ArcaneI think it's pretty ridiculous to tell me my opinion is fucking invalid because I'm "too old". I'm hardly into walkers and Depends territory at the moment. The core concept of this thread is pretty monumentally insulting.
And I hardly think "grognard" is even a really accurate term to describe someone who loves and enjoys the edition of a game that is still selling, on store shelves all over the fucking world.
It has nothing to do with age, it has nothing to do with anything, so much as it has to do with me exercising a little reading comprehension and reading what the fuck has been written, and realizing it's pretty clear that the approach at this point is to tear apart everything about said current edition for no other reason than the poisonous myth of "progress in RPGs".
And what gets my goat the most? I finally found a mainstream game again with 3e that I could really get into, and now I'm basically being told, both by the new guard, and countless fans online, to fuck off. I've gone from finally getting into a game that I could count on to find players anywhere in the world, to being ghettoized as a "grognard".
Fuck that, and fuck you, you miserable cunt.
You're not too old, though you're certainly acting cranky enough. You're just a guy bitching about how shit has to eventually change. You might as well get indignant about that damn sun rising the next day, why the sky hasn't turned beige yet, and what the fuck is up with Madden 2008 when there's 15 other perfectly good versions.
My point? Play 3.5, man. Play the hell out of it. If it's fun for you, that's all that matters*, and since you've been reading the same threads here, you gotta know you're not alone. Honest, since it's looking like 4 will be pretty different animal from 3x, I don't see why there won't be plenty of 3x players for years to come. In my case, I'll be playing World's Largest Dungeon with my friends soon, and for months, maybe years to come, why? Because as the GM, who's a good friend said, "I already have the stuff, and I like it." You may think your anger is sharpening your argument, but my friend makes your point better and faster.
As for gaming material? The old material will be around for a near eternity on ebay and amazon. Not to mention the OGL has secured its survival even if all the new material comes from fans who love the rules and want to spread that enthusiasm (more the better IMO). I just don't see the point in getting all hot and bothered over an inevitability. Que Sera, Sera all ready!
I'll cop to it right now. My hopes may prove to be misplaced come next year, but I'd rather give the game a chance then to seem bitter about it all.
Check this thread man, some are happy, some are skeptical, but the only guy sounding genuinely miserable is you.
*Shoot if I were one of those folks prone to tell gaming stories, I'd tell you about the awesome that was the Munchkin Powered D&D game I played in. My Duergar warrior was a genuine laugh, only to be superceded by the player who decided his next character would be my character's slavish fanboy!
i remember back in the mid 80's being all excited about the release of unearthed arcana and the survival guides. then when we tried to use them, we found them to have changed stuff significantly, and reluctantly put them aside. i think it helped to steer us into playing more traveller and star frontiers.
rifts kind of turned out the opposite--by the time we "got" it, any new book just meant more wild & crazy stuff to use. but we never did any long-term gaming with it, not like the old months-long, continuous shit we did with ad&d.
QuoteThe old material will be around for a near eternity on ebay and amazon.
So are 1e and the like. Try walking into your average FLGS though, and I bet you'll have a lot more trouble getting together a 1e game than you would a 3.5 game.
Of course I'm going to stick with 3.5, I'm not going to force myself to play a game that I don't like and doesn't like me, but that's also not the fucking point.
Quote from: J ArcaneAnd what gets my goat the most? I finally found a mainstream game again with 3e that I could really get into, and now I'm basically being told, both by the new guard, and countless fans online, to fuck off. I've gone from finally getting into a game that I could count on to find players anywhere in the world, to being ghettoized as a "grognard".
Fuck that, and fuck you, you miserable cunt.
Welcome to aging. Soon you'll find yourself increasingly marginalized by mainstream music, television, and movies. You'll either learn to be happy on the fringe of pop culture, or you'll become a miserable son of a bitch.
Quote from: J ArcaneOf course I'm going to stick with 3.5, I'm not going to force myself to play a game that I don't like and doesn't like me, but that's also not the fucking point.
Wow. Narcissism much? You sound as though the people at WotC are working away trying to design a game to piss you off personally. Look, you're just one person. In the scheme of the D&D world your opinion has zero influence. None. Deal with it. Or you'll end up like the most reactionary cranks on Dragonsfoot who are still deeply and personally bitter, seven years later, about 3.0 D&D.
He's in his 20s and young.
Its part of the whole "everything is about me" package.
Personally - I hope BOTH 4th edition and 3.5 do well next year. Its good for the hobby, and we might get more gamers - which are both good things.
- Ed C.
STFU you miserable bitches. He's not saying anything of the sort. He's saying the game doesn't like him - it's figurative, lousy miscreants, not literal.
And of course I agree with J. Then again, I'm over 40. So get off my lawn and turn down that music and slow down when you're driving through the neighborhood, little bastards...
In all seriousness, as I've said elsewhere, the d20 and OGL approach may be a bit of a problem for WotC as it will significantly shorten 0 to nothing, really, what I called the OSRIC cycle (the time to reverse engineer the rules out of the "copyrightable material").
So there's be plenty of people who will jsut stay with d20/OGL/3rd Edition. (and all of them will hang out at //www.d20haven.com!). And lots of people will try out the new edition, and many more will like it than don't, and it will likely introduce (I hope), a lot more players. I might play it in addition to 3rd, depending on how much the rules are influenced or not by things that don't appeal to my tastes. But I think there's a ton of life left in the current system...and I aim to use it.
QuoteSTFU you miserable bitches. He's not saying anything of the sort. He's saying the game doesn't like him - it's figurative, lousy miscreants, not literal.
Bingorino. The design philosophy, as made abundantly apparent with every passing leak and press release and interview and blog post, is directly contradictory to the enjoyment of people who are largely happy with 3e. It is not a philosophy of refinement, of tweaking, of gradual improvement, it is a philosophy of change for change's sake, a paean to the technology myth that afflicts so much of internet RPG discourse.
It is an attitude and approach hostile to the satisfied, unconcerned with any potential alienation, an egotistical confidence in the brand stemmed from a belief that they can do whatever the fuck they want to it, and it will be swallowed up whole regardless, and the miserable peons who dare voice their concerns are but shaking their fists at the sky as it thunders above them.
Or, to put it with fewer words, the game doesn't like me.
Quote from: J ArcaneBingorino. The design philosophy, as made abundantly apparent with every passing leak and press release and interview and blog post, is directly contradictory to the enjoyment of people who are largely happy with 3e. It is not a philosophy of refinement, of tweaking, of gradual improvement, it is a philosophy of change for change's sake, a paean to the technology myth that afflicts so much of internet RPG discourse.
It is an attitude and approach hostile to the satisfied, unconcerned with any potential alienation, an egotistical confidence in the brand stemmed from a belief that they can do whatever the fuck they want to it, and it will be swallowed up whole regardless, and the miserable peons who dare voice their concerns are but shaking their fists at the sky as it thunders above them.
Or, to put it with fewer words, the game doesn't like me.
Is their attitude wrong? Dude, I'm not saying I don't agree with you on some level (I do), but if 4e sells well, then their attitude will be proven right in the marketplace. I'm not sure I like it, but that's life. What can you do, other than play the games you love?
Nothing they leaked so far did say:
"This will appeal to new players!"
to me.
Quote from: J ArcaneSo are 1e and the like. Try walking into your average FLGS though, and I bet you'll have a lot more trouble getting together a 1e game than you would a 3.5 game.
Only 'cos ther 1st ed'ers all have their own cosy gaming groups that they're safe and happy in, and they're not so desperate to make friends as the younger gamers. Loads of people still playing the older editions.
Quote from: J ArcaneBingorino. The design philosophy, as made abundantly apparent with every passing leak and press release and interview and blog post, is directly contradictory to the enjoyment of people who are largely happy with 3e. It is not a philosophy of refinement, of tweaking, of gradual improvement, it is a philosophy of change for change's sake, a paean to the technology myth that afflicts so much of internet RPG discourse.
It is an attitude and approach hostile to the satisfied, unconcerned with any potential alienation, an egotistical confidence in the brand stemmed from a belief that they can do whatever the fuck they want to it, and it will be swallowed up whole regardless, and the miserable peons who dare voice their concerns are but shaking their fists at the sky as it thunders above them.
Or, to put it with fewer words, the game doesn't like me.
Does anyone else see the irony in this, that exactly the same complaints were made when 3rd ed was released?
Changes in editions of the game can be evolutionary rather than revolutionary; when you 'revolutionise' a game you're not necessarily making it better, you're changing the demographic who will enjoy it. Hence you alienate fans, but you're hoping in so doing to gain more fans. And I rekon its a risky strategy; if 3rd ed hadn't had the Dungeons and Dragons brand, a game as complicated as that (what is it, 1000 pages in the three core rulebooks?) would have struggled to make an impact.
Quote from: SettembriniNothing they leaked so far did say:
"This will appeal to new players!"
to me.
Yes but
"YOU" are not the
new players that they are looking for. You. me, and possibly the rest on here would be "old players".
- Ed C.
Quote from: CabDoes anyone else see the irony in this, that exactly the same complaints were made when 3rd ed was released?
Yup, the irony wasn't lost on me.
Quote from: beeber38 and "meh."
Likewise.
Quote from: CabDoes anyone else see the irony in this, that exactly the same complaints were made when 3rd ed was released?
How is it irony? It's more the case of "the more things change, the more they stay the same." Out with the old, and in with the new, until the time comes that the old, to you, has superior qualities to the new. Then you are bitching like the last generation.
So, in other words "this is where I get off the bus."
:hehe:
Quote from: Caesar SlaadSo, in other words "this is where I get off the bus."
:hehe:
well said
Quote from: beeberwell said
I totally agree. Some want to stop off at the park, the others are waiting till they get to the zoo, and the new kids are still a good borrough away from the virtual reality dome. Either way we just want our own kind of fun.
"I used to be with it, but then they changed what "it" was. Now, what I'm with isn't "it", and what's "it" seems weird and scary to me." — Grandpa Simpson
Quote from: jgants"I used to be with it, but then they changed what "it" was. Now, what I'm with isn't "it", and what's "it" seems weird and scary to me." — Grandpa Simpson
"it'll happen to you!"
D&D 3.X is rapidly becoming "FM 103.3, classic hits from the 90s", just up the dial from "FM 101.7, classic rock from the 60s and 70s". Looks like they changed focus groups on you.
!i!
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaD&D 3.X is rapidly becoming "FM 103.3, classic hits from the 90s", just up the dial from "FM 101.7, classic rock from the 60s and 70s". Looks like they changed focus groups on you.
!i!
heh, don't mind me, hangin' out listening to "91.3, all 80's, all the time!" :D
Quote from: KoltarYes but "YOU" are not the new players that they are looking for. You. me, and possibly the rest on here would be "old players".
What are you worried about? It's your job to sell new product, and this is new product. You should be clutching your mitts in barely-suppressed avarice.
!i!
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaWhat are you worried about? It's your job to sell new product, and this is new product. You should be clutching your mitts in barely-suppressed avarice.
!i!
or tapping his fingertips together in a very burnsian "ex-cellent"