Quote from: J ArcaneI think it's pretty ridiculous to tell me my opinion is fucking invalid because I'm "too old".  I'm hardly into walkers and Depends territory at the moment.  The core concept of this thread is pretty monumentally insulting.

And I hardly think "grognard" is even a really accurate term to describe someone who loves and enjoys the edition of a game that is still selling, on store shelves all over the fucking world.

It has nothing to do with age, it has nothing to do with anything, so much as it has to do with me exercising a little reading comprehension and reading what the fuck has been written, and realizing it's pretty clear that the approach at this point is to tear apart everything about said current edition for no other reason than the poisonous myth of "progress in RPGs".

And what gets my goat the most?  I finally found a mainstream game again with 3e that I could really get into, and now I'm basically being told, both by the new guard, and countless fans online, to fuck off.  I've gone from finally getting into a game that I could count on to find players anywhere in the world, to being ghettoized as a "grognard".

Fuck that, and fuck you, you miserable cunt.

You're not too old, though you're certainly acting cranky enough. You're just a guy bitching about how shit has to eventually change. You might as well get indignant about that damn sun rising the next day, why the sky hasn't turned beige yet, and what the fuck is up with Madden 2008 when there's 15 other perfectly good versions.

My point? Play 3.5, man. Play the hell out of it. If it's fun for you, that's all that matters*, and since you've been reading the same threads here, you gotta know you're not alone. Honest, since it's looking like 4 will be pretty different animal from 3x, I don't see why there won't be plenty of 3x players for years to come. In my case, I'll be playing World's Largest Dungeon with my friends soon, and for months, maybe years to come, why? Because as the GM, who's a good friend said, "I already have the stuff, and I like it." You may think your anger is sharpening your argument, but my friend makes your point better and faster.

As for gaming material? The old material will be around for a near eternity on ebay and amazon. Not to mention the OGL has secured its survival even if all the new material comes from fans who love the rules and want to spread that enthusiasm (more the better IMO). I just don't see the point in getting all hot and bothered over an inevitability. Que Sera, Sera all ready!

I'll cop to it right now. My hopes may prove to be misplaced come next year, but I'd rather give the game a chance then to seem bitter about it all.

Check this thread man, some are happy, some are skeptical, but the only guy sounding genuinely miserable is you.

*Shoot if I were one of those folks prone to tell gaming stories, I'd tell you about the awesome that was the Munchkin Powered D&D game I played in. My Duergar warrior was a genuine laugh, only to be superceded by the player who decided his next character would be my character's slavish fanboy!

i remember back in the mid 80's being all excited about the release of unearthed arcana and the survival guides.  then when we tried to use them, we found them to have changed stuff significantly, and reluctantly put them aside.  i think it helped to steer us into playing more traveller and star frontiers.

rifts kind of turned out the opposite--by the time we "got" it, any new book just meant more wild & crazy stuff to use.  but we never did any long-term gaming with it, not like the old months-long, continuous shit we did with ad&d.

QuoteThe old material will be around for a near eternity on ebay and amazon.

So are 1e and the like.  Try walking into your average FLGS though, and I bet you'll have a lot more trouble getting together a 1e game than you would a 3.5 game.

Of course I'm going to stick with 3.5, I'm not going to force myself to play a game that I don't like and doesn't like me, but that's also not the fucking point.

Quote from: J ArcaneAnd what gets my goat the most?  I finally found a mainstream game again with 3e that I could really get into, and now I'm basically being told, both by the new guard, and countless fans online, to fuck off.  I've gone from finally getting into a game that I could count on to find players anywhere in the world, to being ghettoized as a "grognard".

Fuck that, and fuck you, you miserable cunt.

Welcome to aging. Soon you'll find yourself increasingly marginalized by mainstream music, television, and movies. You'll either learn to be happy on the fringe of pop culture, or you'll become a miserable son of a bitch.

Quote from: J ArcaneOf course I'm going to stick with 3.5, I'm not going to force myself to play a game that I don't like and doesn't like me, but that's also not the fucking point.

Wow. Narcissism much? You sound as though the people at WotC are working away trying to design a game to piss you off personally. Look, you're just one person. In the scheme of the D&D world your opinion has zero influence. None. Deal with it. Or you'll end up like the most reactionary cranks on Dragonsfoot who are still deeply and personally bitter, seven years later, about 3.0 D&D.

He's in his 20s and young.
Its part of the whole "everything is about me" package.

 Personally - I hope BOTH 4th edition and 3.5 do well next year. Its good for the hobby, and we might get more gamers - which are both good things.


- Ed C.

STFU you miserable bitches.  He's not saying anything of the sort.  He's saying the game doesn't like him - it's figurative, lousy miscreants, not literal.

And of course I agree with J.  Then again, I'm over 40.  So get off my lawn and turn down that music and slow down when you're driving through the neighborhood, little bastards...

In all seriousness, as I've said elsewhere, the d20 and OGL approach may be a bit of a problem for WotC as it will significantly shorten 0 to nothing, really, what I called the OSRIC cycle (the time to reverse engineer the rules out of the "copyrightable material").

So there's be plenty of people who will jsut stay with d20/OGL/3rd Edition.  (and all of them will hang out at //www.d20haven.com!). And lots of people will try out the new edition, and many more will like it than don't, and it will likely introduce (I hope), a lot more players. I might play it in addition to 3rd, depending on how much the rules are influenced or not by things that don't appeal to my tastes. But I think there's a ton of life left in the current system...and I aim to use it.

QuoteSTFU you miserable bitches. He's not saying anything of the sort. He's saying the game doesn't like him - it's figurative, lousy miscreants, not literal.

Bingorino.  The design philosophy, as made abundantly apparent with every passing leak and press release and interview and blog post, is directly contradictory to the enjoyment of people who are largely happy with 3e.  It is not a philosophy of refinement, of tweaking, of gradual improvement, it is a philosophy of change for change's sake, a paean to the technology myth that afflicts so much of internet RPG discourse.

It is an attitude and approach hostile to the satisfied, unconcerned with any potential alienation, an egotistical confidence in the brand stemmed from a belief that they can do whatever the fuck they want to it, and it will be swallowed up whole regardless, and the miserable peons who dare voice their concerns are but shaking their fists at the sky as it thunders above them.  

Or, to put it with fewer words, the game doesn't like me.

Quote from: J ArcaneBingorino.  The design philosophy, as made abundantly apparent with every passing leak and press release and interview and blog post, is directly contradictory to the enjoyment of people who are largely happy with 3e.  It is not a philosophy of refinement, of tweaking, of gradual improvement, it is a philosophy of change for change's sake, a paean to the technology myth that afflicts so much of internet RPG discourse.

It is an attitude and approach hostile to the satisfied, unconcerned with any potential alienation, an egotistical confidence in the brand stemmed from a belief that they can do whatever the fuck they want to it, and it will be swallowed up whole regardless, and the miserable peons who dare voice their concerns are but shaking their fists at the sky as it thunders above them.  

Or, to put it with fewer words, the game doesn't like me.

Is their attitude wrong? Dude, I'm not saying I don't agree with you on some level (I do), but if 4e sells well, then their attitude will be proven right in the marketplace. I'm not sure I like it, but that's life. What can you do, other than play the games you love?

Nothing they leaked so far did say:

"This will appeal to new players!"

to me.

Quote from: J ArcaneSo are 1e and the like.  Try walking into your average FLGS though, and I bet you'll have a lot more trouble getting together a 1e game than you would a 3.5 game.

Only 'cos ther 1st ed'ers all have their own cosy gaming groups that they're safe and happy in, and they're not so desperate to make friends as the younger gamers. Loads of people still playing the older editions.

Quote from: J ArcaneBingorino.  The design philosophy, as made abundantly apparent with every passing leak and press release and interview and blog post, is directly contradictory to the enjoyment of people who are largely happy with 3e.  It is not a philosophy of refinement, of tweaking, of gradual improvement, it is a philosophy of change for change's sake, a paean to the technology myth that afflicts so much of internet RPG discourse.

It is an attitude and approach hostile to the satisfied, unconcerned with any potential alienation, an egotistical confidence in the brand stemmed from a belief that they can do whatever the fuck they want to it, and it will be swallowed up whole regardless, and the miserable peons who dare voice their concerns are but shaking their fists at the sky as it thunders above them.  

Or, to put it with fewer words, the game doesn't like me.

Does anyone else see the irony in this, that exactly the same complaints were made when 3rd ed was released?

Changes in editions of the game can be evolutionary rather than revolutionary; when you 'revolutionise' a game you're not necessarily making it better, you're changing the demographic who will enjoy it. Hence you alienate fans, but you're hoping in so doing to gain more fans. And I rekon its a risky strategy; if 3rd ed hadn't had the Dungeons and Dragons brand, a game as complicated as that (what is it, 1000 pages in the three core rulebooks?) would have struggled to make an impact.

Quote from: SettembriniNothing they leaked so far did say:

"This will appeal to new players!"

to me.

Yes but "YOU" are not the new players that they are looking for. You. me, and possibly the rest on here would be "old players".

- Ed C.

Quote from: CabDoes anyone else see the irony in this, that exactly the same complaints were made when 3rd ed was released?

Yup, the irony wasn't lost on me.

Quote from: beeber38 and "meh."

Likewise.