Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2021, 10:10:19 PM
So judging a book before it even exists, without even a cover, just based on your assumptions? I am not saying you should be optimistic about it or expect it to be good or anything, but you've literally set up an impossible scenario where it can never be decent merely because it will exist. Kinda a shitty standard don't you think? Shouldn't there be SOME room for it to exceed your expectations?

1) I literally did not judge any book by any cover as the "book" doesn't exist. What I did was look at the landscape and made an informed prediction based on available facts using basic logic.

2) I didn't set up an impossible scenario. I outlined the exact circumstances of the project. That's what you do when you're trying to bring a product to market from the perspective of a Corporation. This is *not* the same thing as an individual or small game-studio, this is a corporation that has to allocate resources for a purpose. And in this case it's a corporation engaging in creating a product completely out of its wheelhouse.

3) There is always the possibility that Forbeck will produce a system that will be better than MSH, M&M, MEGS, V&V, Champions etc. That chance is probably less than 1%. The chance that Marvel will support this endeavor to the depth that *any* of those other systems have is less than that.

4) The only shitty standard in this scenario is the one set by the company that currently has cut its own throat in the name of virtue-signaling and ruining its own IP in the name of that ideology. This isn't Marvel Studios behind this. This is Marvel Comics. They are *not* the same (the jury is out on the MCU in the next phase).

And of course whatever this game will be is going to have to be good enough backed up with enough content to dethrone an intensely ensconced player base that has spent literal decades honing their game of choice to their liking across most of those systems. You know where you have fans that have cross-statted and created entire supplements of professional caliber (some not so professional) that transcends Marvel, DC, and pop-culture entirely.

So sure, there's always a Jim Carrey chance.

But you know, as someone that works with numbers, it's not a bet I'm going to make.

I can't get interested about this. There's no appeal.

Quote from: tenbones on June 11, 2021, 10:07:38 AMThis isn't Marvel Studios behind this. This is Marvel Comics. They are *not* the same (the jury is out on the MCU in the next phase).

It looks like this is being produced by Marvel Entertainment, who are Marvel Comics' parent company. Which is a good sign. Since Marvel Entertainment is also responsible for all Marvel related products (t-shirts, toys, etc) it makes more sense for them to be doing is although I would still like to know why they want to make an RPG. Is this a serious product? A throwaway product? Or just a marketing ploy?

Quote from: tenbones on June 11, 2021, 10:07:38 AM
This isn't Marvel Studios behind this. This is Marvel Comics. They are *not* the same (the jury is out on the MCU in the next phase).

It's really not related to the Marvel Comics group.

Marvel is out of it's collectivelly ass locked heads.

Most comic book fans are droping their shit, the MCU is dead, and they want to sell me the playtest? Good luck with that.

Now, they might make a killing getting some rubes money but I doubt it will be any good or have any staying power.

My money is in it will be even more woke than anything Woke of the Coast, Baizuo or Evil Fedora have ever done.

Quote from: Tristan on June 08, 2021, 02:59:58 AM

Quote from: amacris on June 07, 2021, 02:02:10 AM
Also, you should all play Ascendant. It's the best superhero RPG in the universe.

I'll bite. It looks very MEGS inspired, but possibly more complex. What would benefit me from learning Ascendant rather than DCH/BoH?

(Since we don't know anything really about the Marvel game until next year)

Well, we live in an era where games get marketed on the basis of fluffy story-text, woke claims, celebrity youtubers, or fancy covers. I don't really care about any of that. I care about game design. I wanted a game that played as fast as FASERIP but was as crunchy as Champions. I want a game that was as elegant as DCH/BOH but as realistic as GURPS. If that's the sort of thing you'd want, too, then Ascendant is for you.

Ascendant is a rules-as-physics game where the physic engine is the best in any tabletop RPG.  It was inspired by both FASERIP and MEGS and I dedicated the game to the designers of those two systems:

If we have succeeded, it is because we stand on the shoulders of giants. Two particular giants deserve special acclaim: Jeff Grubb, the designer of TSR's 1984 RPG Marvel Super Heroes; and Greg Gorden, designer of Mayfair Game's 1985 RPG DC Heroes. Grubb's Marvel Super Heroes RPG (sometimes called the FASERIP system) was our inspiration for the color-coded Challenge Action Resolution Table, which enables any and all actions within the game to be resolved with a roll of 1d100. Meanwhile, Gorden's DC Heroes RPG (sometimes called the MEGS system) was our inspiration for the logarithmic mathematics that power our physics-based design. We have sought to synthesize what was best about these two games into one cohesive system that surpasses both in robustness, comprehensiveness, and verisimilitude. Whether we have, in fact, succeeded is for you to judge.


What motivated me to design Ascendant was the realization that MEGS wasn't truly taking advantage of logarithmic math. It used them to set the scale and to handle simple factors like speed, time, and distance. Ascendant fully embraces logarithmic design in every aspect of the game. That enables the game to do amazing things. 

Imagine the most complex thing you can imagine, and the game can handle with 2 seconds of addition and subtraction.

Fire-fighting? How long will it take a water-controller to deliver enough water to put out a fire before it burns down a skyscraper?
•   TIME TO EXTINGUISH FIRE = FIRE MAGNITUDE – WEIGHT OF WATER (+ THERMAL PROTECTION)
OK, but how long will it take for the building to burn down?
•   TIME (BURNED OUT) = 3 + STRUCTURE TOUGHNESS/2 + THERMAL PROTECTION/2 – FIRE INTENSITY/2 – FIRE VOLUME/3
If you don't have enough time, you can make challenge checks to do it faster, or power stunts, etc.

Asteroid strikes? Can Superman stop the asteroid from hitting the Earth?
•   AVAILABLE TIME = DISTANCE TO EARTH – ASTEROID SPEED
•   REQUIRED TIME = ½ X [ASTEROID WEIGHT +17 – (MIGHT</>FLIGHT)]
•   DISTANCE CLOSED WITH EARTH = ASTEROID SPEED + REQUIRED TIME
•   DIVERT ASTEROID: MIGHT</>FLIGHT + AVAILABLE TIME + AVAILABLE TIME VS. ASTEROID WEIGHT + 17

I even used it to model super-COVID ("Eglebia") using the Pathogen Synthesis and Pandemic rules, and then let the super-genius heroes super-genius a cure.

Eglebia: Complex Viral, Direct/Droplet Transmission, Infectivity 3, Pathogenicity 6, Virulence Green (Slain), Incubation Period 16 (2.5 days), Morbidity Period 15 (36 hours), Convalescence Period 18 (10 days), Condition Caused - Exhausted, Prone, Staggered; Cost 207 CP. Treatment: No current treatments.

•   TRANSMISSION: INFECTIVITY VS. EXPOSURE TO DISEASE
•   PATHOGENICITY (ATTACK): PATHOGENICITY VS. MIG; IF COLOR RESULT => VIRULENCE THRESHOLD, DISEASE IS MORBID
•   IDENTIFY UNKNOWN DISEASE: BIOCHEMICAL ANALYSIS + TIME VS. PATHOGENICITY + INCUBATION PERIOD + 10

Every game mechanic is as simple as one sentence in a bullet point.

Because everything is physically modeled, you can improvise a solution with your powers and instead of just story-gaming/making it all up, you can actually assess exactly what will happen. So it can model the fluid fighting of comic books, it can do Thunderbirds disaster relief.

And it plays as fast as FASERIP. Every action is resolved with a simple roll of 1d100. You find your Action Value, subtract the Difficulty Value, to get a Resolution Value, and then you roll on the Challenge Action Resolution Table (CHART). The CHART itself has been designed such that the outcomes it outputs are *also* logarithmic. If I have Agility 10, and you have Agility 9, that means I am twice as agile as you (MEGS-style logarithm). And my expected value against you will, in fact, be twice as high as your expected value against me. And that relationship works at all intervals.

Because it's truly logarithmic it's scale-free. You can model 10,000 soldiers or the Death Star, or a couple thugs in a VW. You can model a disease, a tsunami, a volcano, a car chase. Nuclear submarines vs Godzilla. SDF-1 vs. Zentraedi. Whatever you want.

Quote from: amacris on June 12, 2021, 04:13:23 AM
Imagine the most complex thing you can imagine, and the game can handle with 2 seconds of addition and subtraction.

Fire-fighting? How long will it take a water-controller to deliver enough water to put out a fire before it burns down a skyscraper?
•   TIME TO EXTINGUISH FIRE = FIRE MAGNITUDE – WEIGHT OF WATER (+ THERMAL PROTECTION)
OK, but how long will it take for the building to burn down?
•   TIME (BURNED OUT) = 3 + STRUCTURE TOUGHNESS/2 + THERMAL PROTECTION/2 – FIRE INTENSITY/2 – FIRE VOLUME/3
If you don't have enough time, you can make challenge checks to do it faster, or power stunts, etc.

No offense intended, but while that might look like "two seconds of addition and subtraction" to you, I see division in there and no one in my gaming circles could do those equations in under a minute without a calculator unless all those variables were single digits. I think you seriously underestimate your skill with math relative to the general public.

You know what looks faster at least as you've described it here? Water controller rolls 1d20+their Water Control Rank vs. DC 10+ Fire's Power Rank. Done.

How long does the fire take to destroy something? Building makes a Toughness saves vs. DC 15+Fire's Power Rank and suffers some damage with each failure. So it could, in theory, go at any time (which feels more real and tense for a rescue situation). Done.

I applaud your efforts and am glad the system you described works for you, but your present implementation doesn't look remotely as simple as FASERIP or either 2e or 3e of M&M and possibly not even Champions to me if calculations like those you've laid out must be done in actual play.

QuoteNo offense intended, but while that might look like "two seconds of addition and subtraction" to you, I see division in there and no one in my gaming circles could do those equations in under a minute without a calculator unless all those variables were single digits. I think you seriously underestimate your skill with math relative to the general public.

Nah. The numbers ARE single digits or close to it. That's the whole point of using logs.  And the formulas are GM-facing. You use them to set up scenarios. The players are simply comparing an action value to a resolution value. Having now run the game for dozens of sessions, I can comfortably assert it's the fastest superhero RPG I've ever played. I've played with FASERIP, MEGS, and Champions players, and it just hums. I also played it with my M&M group, and it's vastly simpler in play than M&M while making the GM's job a lot easier.

QuoteWater controller rolls 1d20+their Water Control Rank vs. DC 10+ Fire's Power Rank. Done.

That level of simplicity only works if you hand wave anything of substance. E.g you assume the water controller has unlimited access to water, the building doesn't matter, and that you know what the fire's power rank is. Where did you get that information? What if the building is fire-resistant or flammable? What if there's not any water nearby? If you don't care about that stuff - if you just want Drama and Narrative -- you're welcome to make up those variables or ignore them. On the other hand, maybe you think "it would actually be awesome if superheroes could do what they really could do if superheroes are real". And then Ascendant has your back 100%.

Let's imagine Bob is playing a character with 8 SPs of Fire Control. (SPs are "supermetric points", e.g. logs). He literally want to use a challenge check to turn off the fire. Here's the actual challenge check formula for putting out the fire:

•   EXTINGUISHING FIRE: TIME + FIRE CONTROL VS. FIRE MAGNITUDE - 3

Time means the time you have to spend on it. Like everything else, it's a log. Time 0 SPs = 1 combat round. Time 1 SP = 2 combat rounds. Etc. So anytime you are doing an action in one combat round, you ignore Time. (The game calls these Instant vs Extended Actions). So that gives:

•   EXTINGUISHING FIRE: FIRE CONTROL VS. FIRE MAGNITUDE - 3

The GM sets the Fire Magnitude. The formula is Fire Intensity + Fire Volume. Both values are benchmarked with the GM with lots of examples, just like DC Heroes benchmarks Weight and so on. So if you want to do the towering inferno versus a kitchen fire cause nana overcooked the bread, it's right there.

Let's image Bob arrives at a house fire. He says "I use my Fire Control to put out the fire. I have 8 SPs of Fire Control". And the GM says "The Fire Magnitude is 6 SPs" and so Bob rolls on the CHART at +2. (The CHART is a color-coded FASERIP/ZEFRS style chart.) That's your example above. Easy.

Now let's imagine that the fire is a raging inferno on a skyscraper (Fire Magnitude 20 SPs). Bob is not going to succeed at 8 vs 20 on the CHART because that's a -12 RV. But all that means is he can't do it in one combat round (3 seconds). Bob could, if he wanted, roll every combat round. That's tedious and boring and frustrating. And that's where most games just halt.

But in Ascendant he can use an Extended Action and add the Time spent (logarithmic) to his action value. Let's say Bob spends 1 hour (10 SPs). Now Bob is at an action value of 8+10=18 vs. 20. He's at -2, which is hard but doable. You can't do that in DC Heroes/BOH because the resolution tables aren't actually logarithmic; adding Time fucks things up.

Or, Bob could say "I can't put out the entire skyscraper, but can I just put out the fire at the front entrance?" The GM knows that the Fire Magnitude is 20. A Skyscraper has Volume 15 and the Fire Intensity is 5. The volume of a lobby is just 3 SPs. So now THAT Fire Magnitude is just 5+3 = 8. So to just extinguish the lobby fire, Bob is now at 8 vs. 8, which is doable.

The game is exactly as simple as you want, it just is also comprehensive enough to handle literally anything you throw at it. Since EVERYTHING is logarithmic you can do any combination of team, team-ups, portions of areas or volumes, etc etc. It Just Works.

QuoteHow long does the fire take to destroy something? Building makes a Toughness saves vs. DC 15+Fire's Power Rank and suffers some damage with each failure. So it could, in theory, go at any time (which feels more real and tense for a rescue situation). Done.

But you can do it that way if you want. From the rules: "Structures suffer Thermal Damage from a Special Thermal Fog with SPs equal to the fire's Intensity. Damage is reduced by the structure's Thermal Protection." You can just do damage to the building each round. Now let's say you have *a city* on fire. Do you want to sit there and roll for 4000 buildings? Or do you just want to know how long the city will take to burn down? You can hand-wave it. But Ascendant can handle it in moments.

What if a bunch of fire fighters show up to help? What does that do? Does it matter if they have one fire hydrant or two? You can hand wave it. Or Ascendant can handle it in moments.

QuoteI applaud your efforts and am glad the system you described works for you, but your present implementation doesn't look remotely as simple as FASERIP or either 2e or 3e of M&M and possibly not even Champions to me if calculations like those you've laid out must be done in actual play.

Please hold the applause as you don't yet understand the true glory of the system!

The system can do anything those games can do as simply as they can. And it can do anything that a high-complexity game like GURPS can do far simpler than GURPS can.

"Calculations must be done" - no, you can just hand wave it and it's as simple as X vs Y, roll.
"Calculations CAN be done" - YES, and those calculations are easy.

A lot of game design these days is based on "roll your skill vs target number" and then advises the GM to make up the target numbers as he deems appropriate. I find that unpalatable. There's no balance, playability, and verisimilitude, UNLESS the skills and target numbers are appropriately benchmarked.

But what is the appropriate benchmarked? I find that sort of "wave your hand and make it up" system is tolerable when working with ordinary human ranges where our intuitions can roughly guide us. Yeah, Arnold Schwarzenegger can pick up a motorcycle but not a tank. But nobody "intuitively" understands what a telekinetic can do. If he can pick up a jetliner and fling at 30mph, what else can he do? Can he halt the entire NASCAR Daytona 500 with a sweep of his hands? Ascendant could answer that. Let's answer that!

Let's say our villain Telekhan has 20 SPs of Telekinesis. A jetliner weighs 15 SPs. He can throw the jetliner at a Speed of 20-15 = 5 SP. 5 SP = 30mph.
What about stopping a car dead in its tracks? The challenge check to stop a rolling object is TELEKINESIS VS. OBJECT WEIGHT + OBJECT SPEED -6
A NASCAR car weighs 1625lbs (7 SPs) and goes at a Speed of 180MPH, or (7 SPs). So that's 7+7= 14 SPs. 14-6 is 8.

Telekinesis 20 vs 8. That's a +12 RV, which is an automatic success. If Telekhan can throw a jetliner, it's trivial to halt the racecar.

But Telekhan wants to halt ALL the racecars. There's 43 race cars. That's a 43-target multi-attack, which imposes a -10 penalty. Now we're at 20-10 = 10. 10 vs. 8. That's a +2 RV, and quite doable. Wow! Telekhan really can just halt the ENTIRE NASCAR 500 with one sweep of his hand. That's really cool.

Now, you might not care about that. You might just say "I'll just decide if it's dramatically appropriate for Telekhan to halt the race cars" or "I'll make up a number I think will be fun" or "I will make the decision based on my experience reading comics". That's fine. You can do that in Ascendant. The GM could just say "uh, we'll call it Difficulty Value 7" or "12" or whatever number he wants. But he can also work out the real physics.

The game is fractally comprehensive. You can play it as simple or complex as you want. The point is that it can handle tremendous complexity with great ease. There is literally nothing else that can do what Ascendant does, while Ascendant can do anything those other games can do.

[deleted double post, sorry]

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 11, 2021, 11:30:51 PM
|Most comic book fans are droping their shit, the MCU is dead, and they want to sell me the playtest? Good luck with that.

They want to sell it to you twice. Once as a $40(?) playtest and again as an...oh, let's say $60 full game.

And they'd REAAALLLY like to sell it to you as an Extra Special Ultra Mega Limited ULTIMATE SUPERFAN edition, no doubt limited to just 616 copies (preorder now!!!), for the pittance of $200. This version has an invisible rustproof undercoating. Plus you get dice.

Quote from: Thornhammer on June 12, 2021, 02:06:00 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 11, 2021, 11:30:51 PM
|Most comic book fans are droping their shit, the MCU is dead, and they want to sell me the playtest? Good luck with that.

They want to sell it to you twice. Once as a $40(?) playtest and again as an...oh, let's say $60 full game.

And they'd REAAALLLY like to sell it to you as an Extra Special Ultra Mega Limited ULTIMATE SUPERFAN edition, no doubt limited to just 616 copies (preorder now!!!), for the pittance of $200. This version has an invisible rustproof undercoating. Plus you get dice.

Then there's the Non plus ultra special edition... It includes all of the above plus 10 stl files for you to print your miniatures for the very modest price of $400 pre order now!

Well now I'm hyped!

NOT.

BTW, someone mentioned Marvel didn't NEED to sell thye rights to make an TTRPG to third parties when they can hire freelance talent...

Is that a smart bussiness move?

Lets see, they sell the rights to WotC for a few millions, WotC now has to also eat the costs of development, publicity, art, etc.

Disney profits if the game flops and if it's a hit, because the rights are for a very limited time, zero risk pure profit, while WotC (or whoever) eats all the risks.

I think nobody wanted to buy the rights and thus they decided to develop/publish in-house.

Bold move, lets see how it works out.

IMHO it won't be a huge hit, it's too late to ride the MCU wave, the right time was well before End Game. I would have thought right after Avengers.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on June 11, 2021, 03:22:44 PM
It looks like this is being produced by Marvel Entertainment, who are Marvel Comics' parent company. Which is a good sign. Since Marvel Entertainment is also responsible for all Marvel related products (t-shirts, toys, etc) it makes more sense for them to be doing is although I would still like to know why they want to make an RPG. Is this a serious product? A throwaway product? Or just a marketing ploy?

I'm not so sure this is a good sign.

Seeing as how 'Marvel Entertainment' has presided over Marvel Comics march into comics irrelevance, and done nothing to change their course.

I'll wait until we have system info before I can have a real opinion about it as a game, but if they are basing the RPG on the current Comic universe and not the popular iconic characters, they are already making things harder for themselves than they need to.

I wonder what their expectations are as well. Because only D&D does D&D numbers...

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 12, 2021, 03:00:57 PM
BTW, someone mentioned Marvel didn't NEED to sell thye rights to make an TTRPG to third parties when they can hire freelance talent...

Is that a smart bussiness move?

For another company, I'd say no.  But, Marvel's history is in publishing.  They know how to get things on paper and get them in front of buyers.  They have all the art they need.  They just need to pay for a different kind of writer and editor.  I'd have to assume they crunched the numbers and thought it was worth taking a stab at it.

Jaeger's point that only D&D does D&D numbers is probably the bigger problem for them.  With the popularity of print comics in the past and the movies now, it seems like there should be a bigger market for a Marvel or DC game.  There's a good chance they'll overestimate, overproduce, and take a bath on it, instead of growing a smaller and sustainable fan base. 

Quote from: Almost_Useless on June 13, 2021, 10:22:47 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 12, 2021, 03:00:57 PM
BTW, someone mentioned Marvel didn't NEED to sell thye rights to make an TTRPG to third parties when they can hire freelance talent...

Is that a smart bussiness move?

For another company, I'd say no.  But, Marvel's history is in publishing.  They know how to get things on paper and get them in front of buyers.  They have all the art they need.  They just need to pay for a different kind of writer and editor.  I'd have to assume they crunched the numbers and thought it was worth taking a stab at it.

Jaeger's point that only D&D does D&D numbers is probably the bigger problem for them.  With the popularity of print comics in the past and the movies now, it seems like there should be a bigger market for a Marvel or DC game.  There's a good chance they'll overestimate, overproduce, and take a bath on it, instead of growing a smaller and sustainable fan base.

They've done this before. The Marvel Universe RPG (the one with stones) was published in-house, and fizzled. There have been endless licensed RPGs based on major properties, from Marvel to James Bond, Star Wars, and Star Trek. None of them have ever managed to break D&D's lock on the market, and the non-D&D RPG market is too small to get the sales figure they seem to expect.