Quote from: Emperor Norton;762835Here is a more complete summary of the expected damage per round of a cantrip vs fighter weapon attack at level 5.

What about Cleric and non-sneak attack thief?

Quote from: CRKrueger;762867What about Cleric and non-sneak attack thief?

In all honesty, I haven't read enough about the char abilities to make a real comparison. The fighter vs wizard thing I've mostly read more about just because people are hung up on it so I was trying to understand what the issue was and approach it with math. (Though if the cleric does have a d8 "cantrip" as well like someone else stated in the thread, he is obviously not falling behind the wizard).

Quote from: Emperor Norton;762871In all honesty, I haven't read enough about the char abilities to make a real comparison. The fighter vs wizard thing I've mostly read more about just because people are hung up on it so I was trying to understand what the issue was and approach it with math. (Though if the cleric does have a d8 "cantrip" as well like someone else stated in the thread, he is obviously not falling behind the wizard).

Out of the four main classes the wizard is the weakest by a fair margin the consensus as far as I can gather and see with my own eyes goes something like this (at least combat wise)....

1. Fighter
2. Rogue
3. Cleric depends on your domains. If it's War you're on par with a fighter and may even be better in certain scenerios
4. Wizard

Quote from: The Butcher;762854How in Crom's name would it be fun if he couldn't? What glory is there to be had in a besting a harmless foe?

Exactly. Give me impossible odds and an iron will, not this +15% if I were to quantify hitting a foe on a range of 1-20!

I will never for the life of me understand why so many roleplayers are anti-math. I hate bad premises (white room, PvP, full preparation/readiness) as much as the next person, but math is one of the most fundamental parts of game design.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;762905I will never for the life of me understand why so many roleplayers are anti-math. I hate bad premises (white room, PvP, full preparation/readiness) as much as the next person, but math is one of the most fundamental parts of game design.

I am quite comfortable with math and I can totally understand that A d8 ray attack is much weaker than a guy with a sword but there are a number of mitigating factors that make an at will cantrip much more powerful than a bow or a sword

i) You can "impress the natives" - pointing your finger at a fragile object and making it smash is a useful little trick
ii) When you are stripped of all your weapons and armour the mage still have unlimited "arrows"
iii) Range limits in a "dungeon" environment are mostly redundant you will rarely be targetting more than 50 feet inside a dungeon or other structure
iv) You don't need any space. An archer needs to have a space 5 feet high to draw a bow (or 5 feet wide) a 2 handed sword man needs a height and width of 10 feet (2 handed swords are shit in realistic indoors locations) etc . An at will cantrip can be cast through a keyhole, through the bars of a cell, when lying on your stomach in a sewer pipe that is 2 feet wide and 1 foot high to kill those pesky rats.  

There are loads more situations where its a very effective tool.

Now I know a 1d4 damage doesn't really fix that and maybe a 1/2 level damage round up would be a fairer take. But the point is that in the actual game world away from the math the at will cantrip that is comparable to a normal attack just feels too tough.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;762905I will never for the life of me understand why so many roleplayers are anti-math. I hate bad premises (white room, PvP, full preparation/readiness) as much as the next person, but math is one of the most fundamental parts of game design.

Game design, not game playing. Deconstructing systems might sound fun to a subset of humorless nerds, but most people don't give one fuck how the game is constructed as long as it's fun.

Quote from: mcbobbo;762723This sheet is the first I've heard of the semi-vancian system.  What becomes of sorcerers?

All spell-casters basically work the same way. Prepare spells equal to level+magic ability mod. Then cast with your daily spell slots.

That's because all spell slots are equal for purposes of multiclassing, and you can switch the whole casting method to mana points or whatever for all classes.

Sorcerers have an additional resource called - you wouldn't believe it! - Sorcery Points. Those can be used for what 3.x called metamagic.

So basically your casting differs by your spell lists and class features. Sorcerers have Sorcery Points, Wizards and some Druids have Arcane Recovery, some Clercis can use their Channel Divinity on magic and so on.

Quote from: 1of3;762918All spell-casters basically work the same way. Prepare spells equal to level+magic ability mod. Then cast with your daily spell slots.

That's because all spell slots are equal for purposes of multiclassing, and you can switch the whole casting method to mana points or whatever for all classes.

Sorcerers have an additional resource called - you wouldn't believe it! - Sorcery Points. Those can be used for what 3.x called metamagic.

So basically your casting differs by your spell lists and class features. Sorcerers have Sorcery Points, Wizards and some Druids have Arcane Recovery, some Clercis can use their Channel Divinity on magic and so on.

Don't forget warlocks they had some weird encounter/daily thing going on.

Quote from: Brad;762914Game design, not game playing. Deconstructing systems might sound fun to a subset of humorless nerds, but most people don't give one fuck how the game is constructed as long as it's fun.

If you didn't give a fuck how the game was constructed, you wouldn't have a preference for what games you like. The math of a system works together with the fluff of a system to create a feel for that system. Game design informs game playing, and if you are going to criticize a game DESIGN you should be talking about game DESIGN.

OD&D wouldn't feel like OD&D if a 1st level Wizard could take a shot from an Ogre and not even feel it.

If it wasn't for "humorless nerds" who pay fucking attention to the math, you wouldn't have a damned game to play. Unless you think throwing rules at a wall until they stick is a great idea.

In my opinion cantrip should be minor speell effects that a clever player can use to do interesting stuff not a fall back position for attacks.

So I would much prefer the following sorts of things as cantrips

flare - caused a bare flame such as a candle or fire to flare for a moment
douse - extinguishes a flame the size of a candle
manipulate - allows the wizard to operate a simple device remotely, lock a door, flip a switch, slide a bolt
index - enbles a wizard to flip through a book and find a reference
Breeze - a single gust of wind that can slam a window shut or billow a curtain
hiccup - cause someone to hiccup
sneeze - cause someone to sneeze
Read magic - I used to get really annoyed that read magic was a spell and not an effect wizards were training in
Flavour - can add a pinch of salt or pepper or paprika to a meal

I think having cantrips as attacks is aside from anythign else dull.

Quote from: jibbajibba;762912I am quite comfortable with math and I can totally understand that A d8 ray attack is much weaker than a guy with a sword but there are a number of mitigating factors that make an at will cantrip much more powerful than a bow or a sword

i) You can "impress the natives" - pointing your finger at a fragile object and making it smash is a useful little trick

Depends on the rarity of magic in your game. Also you can do this with martial feats as well. Bend some bars, beat down 2-3 people with ease, break something that seems infeasible to break.

Quoteii) When you are stripped of all your weapons and armour the mage still have unlimited "arrows"

When you are in the affect of a silence spell or antimagic zone, those swords and bows keep working, too.

Quoteiii) Range limits in a "dungeon" environment are mostly redundant you will rarely be targetting more than 50 feet inside a dungeon or other structure

I agree partially, which is why I didn't mention the range, but there are plenty of situations where you can use the extra range to great effect. I mean, being more than 50 feet away from someone you want to poke happens more often than being stripped of weapons and armor anyway.

Quoteiv) You don't need any space. An archer needs to have a space 5 feet high to draw a bow (or 5 feet wide) a 2 handed sword man needs a height and width of 10 feet (2 handed swords are shit in realistic indoors locations) etc . An at will cantrip can be cast through a keyhole, through the bars of a cell, when lying on your stomach in a sewer pipe that is 2 feet wide and 1 foot high to kill those pesky rats.  

You do need less space, but not to the degree you are talking about. How are you getting line of sight AND casting the spell from your hand through a keyhole? I sure as hell wouldn't allow that as a GM. And remember, that a high str/dex fighter STILL does more damage with a dagger, which takes almost no room.

Also, people who aren't idiots should probably bind a wizards fingers when they capture them.

QuoteThere are loads more situations where its a very effective tool.

Now I know a 1d4 damage doesn't really fix that and maybe a 1/2 level damage round up would be a fairer take. But the point is that in the actual game world away from the math the at will cantrip that is comparable to a normal attack just feels too tough.

I just disagree. I don't think it should match the fighter in damage, but it already scales back pretty far depending on how strong the fighter is, and his weapon choice, as it is.

O

Quote from: jibbajibba;762922In my opinion cantrip should be minor speell effects that a clever player can use to do interesting stuff not a fall back position for attacks.

So I would much prefer the following sorts of things as cantrips

flare - caused a bare flame such as a candle or fire to flare for a moment
douse - extinguishes a flame the size of a candle
manipulate - allows the wizard to operate a simple device remotely, lock a door, flip a switch, slide a bolt
index - enbles a wizard to flip through a book and find a reference
Breeze - a single gust of wind that can slam a window shut or billow a curtain
hiccup - cause someone to hiccup
sneeze - cause someone to sneeze
Read magic - I used to get really annoyed that read magic was a spell and not an effect wizards were training in
Flavour - can add a pinch of salt or pepper or paprika to a meal

I think having cantrips as attacks is aside from anythign else dull.

Problem is that's covered by 2-3 of the current cantrips and direct attack cantrips have been a thing since 3e and the rest have been a thing since 1e. Some very useful as direct combat applications.

All this not counting the tiny amount of slots available or small pool of spells able to be used on the fly. Or the stacking rules and the hard limits on buff spells. There is a good reason for unlimited cantrips which a select few are attack types when you look at the entirety of the magic rules.

Other then the obvious (knives, darts and slings are for hunting and quarterstaves for walking none are what a  typical wizard would actually think of as a weapon in and of itself). Mind and magic are their weapons and tools.

Cantrips are those tools like a hammer to a carpenter, a sword to a fighter or lockpicks to burglar/thief. They're not mere parlor tricks to impress the rubes. At least not primarily.

They are part of you and the reason the ignorant fear a wizard because that's the magic the vast majority actually see for themselves throughout their entire lives.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;762921If you didn't give a fuck how the game was constructed, you wouldn't have a preference for what games you like. The math of a system works together with the fluff of a system to create a feel for that system. Game design informs game playing, and if you are going to criticize a game DESIGN you should be talking about game DESIGN.

OD&D wouldn't feel like OD&D if a 1st level Wizard could take a shot from an Ogre and not even feel it.

If it wasn't for "humorless nerds" who pay fucking attention to the math, you wouldn't have a damned game to play. Unless you think throwing rules at a wall until they stick is a great idea.

Sorry, 99.99% of people who drive cars know nothing of the math behind how they're created, and yet can drive those cars and appreciate them for the fine machines which they are. I do NOT have to understand anything whatsoever about game design (i.e. the math behind it) to enjoy a game.

Seriously, the individuals who post on internet message boards are in the .01% of the people who play games, yet act as if they represent the general populace.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;762923Depends on the rarity of magic in your game. Also you can do this with martial feats as well. Bend some bars, beat down 2-3 people with ease, break something that seems infeasible to break.

Agreed, but the warrior impressing the native through his martial prowess is a much more contrived process.
Would you be more impressed by a big bloke that could bend a poker or a guy that could shoot magic out of his fingertips? I mean really?

QuoteWhen you are in the affect of a silence spell or antimagic zone, those swords and bows keep working, too.

Sure and they are just as common as a narrow corridor or a tunnel.....

QuoteI agree partially, which is why I didn't mention the range, but there are plenty of situations where you can use the extra range to great effect. I mean, being more than 50 feet away from someone you want to poke happens more often than being stripped of weapons and armor anyway.

To some extend yes but the wizards martial skills are generally the last option, so if you were 50 feet away then running is probably a better choice defensiviely in any case.

QuoteYou do need less space, but not to the degree you are talking about. How are you getting line of sight AND casting the spell from your hand through a keyhole? I sure as hell wouldn't allow that as a GM. And remember, that a high str/dex fighter STILL does more damage with a dagger, which takes almost no room.

I am pretty sure I can sit 4 feet away from a keyhole and be able to see through it. In which case as my "cantrip " has no phyiscal volume until it connects as a bolt of kinetic energy sure you can cast it line of sight through a keyhole or a pipe 40 feet long or rings on the end of a row of axes hanging on a wall.
And of course you can do more damage with a dagger shit you can kill someone easily with a dagger but you can't use one down a 40 foot long pipe or through a keyhole.

QuoteAlso, people who aren't idiots should probably bind a wizards fingers when they capture them.

If they know about magic and know you are a wizard and are bright sure.
But if they are really smart they will cut out your tongue and remove all your fingers if they know you are a wizard

QuoteI just disagree. I don't think it should match the fighter in damage, but it already scales back pretty far depending on how strong the fighter is, and his weapon choice, as it is.

My point is cantrips should be interesting little things you can do. Things that feel magical.
Giving a wizard an at will attack that doesn't fit with the description of how magic works at the macro level and feels like a gamist way to prevent them having to throw daggers just sits ill with me.

I think our difference of opinion comes from our preconceptions of the game world and what we want from a game. You are looking at this as an experienced D&D player. You live in a world where adventurers are common where magic is taken for granted and where a group that has formed with the intention of killing things and taking their stuff are all expected to pull their weight.
I live in a world where the Duke of Kanta's daughter has fled from her father's castle after he tried to marry her off to a fat merchant to swell the kingdom's coffers. She has stowed away in the back of a cart leaving town and is now listening to the carts owners, two snakeoil salesmen of dubious parentage, argue over where they should next alight and whether or not they should have lifted the strongbox from the tavern or not. In that world peasants are peasants, no one knows shit about magic, 99% of people are 0 level and everyone things elves are a myth.

I think its just a different mind set.