Quote from: Bill;762787And what I mean by 'non optimized', is a fighter who rolled low stats, or rolled in order, or actually chose to be Intelligent, Charismatic, etc..

If I was making players roll stats in order, I would be making them roll to see what spells they got as well.

Although I have been assured that all fighters will get Gauntlets of Ogre Strength from the first Rabbit they kill, so its pretty irrelevant. ;o)

Quote from: Emperor Norton;7627911. I don't think the game math should be based around 10 Str fighters, that is absurd to use as a baseline for how the game works, because you are just going to make decent strengthed fighters ridiculous.

2. 14 strength two handed sword fighter DOES do at least twice the average damage. I talked about this already and popped the math down in another thread, I don't see a reason to repeat the math every time.

3. Yes, a sword and board fighter will do less, around 6.5 expected damage on a hit with a longsword (1d8), but will also have better AC than a two handed fighter, and WAAAY more AC and HP than the fragile wizard giving him a lot more staying power.

4. 14 strength at level 5 (when two weapon attacks come into play) for a fighter is seriously seriously conservative.

5. If you want to pick less effective weapons, you shouldn't be surprised if you are less effective (handaxe, unless you are dual wielding, but that adds its own wrinkles into the expected damage).

6. Magic Weapons, while not as potent or common as in some other versions of D&D, can affect fighter damage even further, adding both a slight boost in accuracy, and in damage. There is nothing like this for cantrips, unless it is unrevealed.

I would assume the baseline for a single classed fighter to be a 16 STR, because the standard array has a 15 as the highest value and humans get a +1 to all abilities. Looks like they went with 15/14/13/12/10/8 as the baseline standard array.

Quote from: jadrax;762800If I was making players roll stats in order, I would be making them roll to see what spells they got as well.

Although I have been assured that all fighters will get Gauntlets of Ogre Strength from the first Rabbit they kill, so its pretty irrelevant. ;o)

I am a huge fan of the 1E dnd random starting spells and chance to know new spells. Huge fan.

"Oh Chance to Know! Why have you forsaken me!?!!?"




Bah! I guess people prefer cookie cutter wizards

Quote from: Bill;762802I am a huge fan of the 1E dnd random starting spells and chance to know new spells. Huge fan.

"Oh Chance to Know! Why have you forsaken me!?!!?"




Bah! I guess people prefer cookie cutter wizards

That % to know table....oh god how I hate thee!!!!

Did make for some unique wizards though....

Quote from: Emperor Norton;7627911. I don't think the game math should be based around 10 Str fighters, that is absurd to use as a baseline for how the game works, because you are just going to make decent strengthed fighters ridiculous.

Agreed, however, assuming 1d8/2d8/3d8 etc and assuming the standard d8 weapon, then Strength is the only difference unless other selectable factors come into play.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;7627912. 14 strength two handed sword fighter DOES do at least twice the average damage. I talked about this already and popped the math down in another thread, I don't see a reason to repeat the math every time.

Except you didn't say two-handed.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;7627913. Yes, a sword and board fighter will do less, around 6.5 expected damage on a hit with a longsword (1d8),

That's all I was saying.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;7627916. Magic Weapons, while not as potent or common as in some other versions of D&D, can affect fighter damage even further, adding both a slight boost in accuracy, and in damage. There is nothing like this for cantrips, unless it is unrevealed.

Which we don't know, yet.

BTW, since we've determined that the Mage comes in at just Str difference from Fighter for the average weapon type...Where does Mage come in vs. Cleric or vs. Thief?  Should Mage round to round base damage, no resource expenditure be greater then a Cleric or Thief?  Is it?

If Mage's at-will damage without expending expendable spells can outpace baseline Cleric or Thief melee, that's a major and fundamental paradigm shift in the class.

I think all you have to ask yourself is whether or not it'd be fun to play Conan when Thoth-Amon could kick his ass pretty handily.

Quote from: CRKrueger;762816BTW, since we've determined that the Mage comes in at just Str difference from Fighter for the average weapon type...Where does Mage come in vs. Cleric or vs. Thief?  Should Mage round to round base damage, no resource expenditure be greater then a Cleric or Thief?  Is it?

If Mage's at-will damage without expending expendable spells can outpace baseline Cleric or Thief melee, that's a major and fundamental paradigm shift in the class.

Because of Finesse and Sneak Attack (which pretty much always works now)I think they are pretty far behind the rogue.

Cleric gets more tricky, because there is such a variance in the class. A war cleric seems comparable (if not better at some levels) to a fighter. A healing cleric less so, but because clerics get their own d8 damage cantrip (Sacred Flame) they can never fall behind the Wizard.

Quote from: Marleycat;762810That % to know table....oh god how I hate thee!!!!

Did make for some unique wizards though....

Often it was more an issue of when you learned a particular spell and not if.

Traumatic when your wizard failed to learn fireball at level 5, but it was kind of cool that the wizard would then have to rely on his other spells.

Unless you had horrid luck, you could learn fireball at level 6 or 7, etc...

I realize many players prefer to pick exactly what spells they have, but I have a fondness for the 'chance to know'.

Quote from: Bill;762828Often it was more an issue of when you learned a particular spell and not if.

Traumatic when your wizard failed to learn fireball at level 5, but it was kind of cool that the wizard would then have to rely on his other spells.

Unless you had horrid luck, you could learn fireball at level 6 or 7, etc...

I realize many players prefer to pick exactly what spells they have, but I have a fondness for the 'chance to know'.

I did that very thing a couple of times but at least I knew Spectral Force.

Quote from: Marleycat;762829I did that very thing a couple of times but at least I knew Spectral Force.

Spectral force was actually effective. 1E has illusion spells that later versions of dnd wish they had.

Illusionists were pretty amazing right up until they got ganked by a pack of skeletons.

Here is a more complete summary of the expected damage per round of a cantrip vs fighter weapon attack at level 5. We have three targets, AC13, AC15, and AC17, and 3 Wizards (Int 10, 14, and 18) and 3 Fighters (Str 10, 14, 18). The fighter will also use 3 different weapons (dagger, longsword, two handed sword) one mundane, and one +1 magic of each type.

They both have a proficiency bonus of +3, as per the starter characters at that level.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BoPcPWo9ns3y5csjGxrewS5H6UYFeDg2Lx-TxZmW-u8/edit?usp=sharing

As you can see, any fighter wielding a longsword (even one with 10 Str) is doing at least as much expected damage as the wizards cantrips (vs a wizard of the same intelligence as his strength, which I think is a fair comparison). And once you start adding strength, the Fighter QUICKLY outpaces them in damage. A Str 18 fighter can even do more damage wielding a dagger.

(Hell, the 18 str fighter does more damage with his FIST, and remember that hand to hand in 5e is 1+str damage (2*(1+4)*chance to hit)).

Also, there is no reason to just assume 1d8 on the fighter just because its equal to the Wizards die. The Fighter has the option to go up to 2d6, something the Wizard doesn't, that should be figured in.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;762835Here is a more complete summary of the expected damage per round of a cantrip vs fighter weapon attack at level 5. We have three targets, AC13, AC15, and AC17, and 3 Wizards (Int 10, 14, and 18) and 3 Fighters (Str 10, 14, 18). The fighter will also use 3 different weapons (dagger, longsword, two handed sword) one mundane, and one +1 magic of each type.

They both have a proficiency bonus of +3, as per the starter characters at that level.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BoPcPWo9ns3y5csjGxrewS5H6UYFeDg2Lx-TxZmW-u8/edit?usp=sharing

As you can see, any fighter wielding a longsword (even one with 10 Str) is doing at least as much expected damage as the wizards cantrips (vs a wizard of the same intelligence as his strength, which I think is a fair comparison). And once you start adding strength, the Fighter QUICKLY outpaces them in damage. A Str 18 fighter can even do more damage wielding a dagger.

(Hell, the 18 str fighter does more damage with his FIST, and remember that hand to hand in 5e is 1+str damage (2*(1+4)*chance to hit)).

Also, there is no reason to just assume 1d8 on the fighter just because its equal to the Wizards die. The Fighter has the option to go up to 2d6, something the Wizard doesn't, that should be figured in.

(Un)Fortunately* the Wizard isn't limited to Cantrips.





*Depending upon which side you like

I don't really see it as a downside. I don't think anyone is arguing that a Fighter should be able to match a Novaing Wizard 1:1 over a short period of time.

The problem with 99% of the math wonk crowd, is that they try to play it up as PvP at full strength and full planning. And in that case, a Fighter SHOULD lose to a Wizard at anything beyond early levels.

But put a Wizard and a Fighter through a dungeon, filled with monsters, and the Wizard may burn brighter, but the Fighter will consistently be knocking them down.

Quote from: Brad;762818I think all you have to ask yourself is whether or not it'd be fun to play Conan when Thoth-Amon could kick his ass pretty handily.

How in Crom's name would it be fun if he couldn't? What glory is there to be had in a besting a harmless foe?

Quote from: The Butcher;762854How in Crom's name would it be fun if he couldn't? What glory is there to be had in a besting a harmless foe?

I think he meant in Melee.