Quote from: Sacrosanct;762715Same here.  The pregen mage has 8 hp at level 1, but only because of Con.  Most mages will only have 6, with a very low AC.  So it seems they are back to being able to be killed in one hit by pretty much any opponent.

Could be lower because we're back to rolling for hitpoints as the assumed default. Cats are back to being the bane of wizards again. Somehow that makes me happy.

IIRC the 1d8 cantrip is melee. Not exactly where I would want to be as a wizard. Ray of Frost is 1d6. Unless they showed something else and I haven't seen it.

1d6 with no bonus to attack from int, magic weapons, etc is like, 3.5 expected damage on a roll. Compared to the 9 expected damage that a str 14 fighter with a two handed sword will do. I'm sorry if I just don't see this as an issue.

People see the highest number on a dice and misunderstand how important it is. In reality, static bonuses usually matter more than people think.

Hell, the wizard in the starter set in melee is better off using that short sword, and would be better off using a bow as well, instead of using cantrips for damage, because he would get dex mod to damage.

Quote from: jibbajibba;762718sorry disagree about the cantrip.

If I have a mage at first level who effectively has a bow with an infinite amount of arrows I have an issue with that.

If the mage's at will cantrip does as much damage as the fighter's sword that causes me an issue.

I said d4 just because it is next to useless, I say next to useless because it's not actually useless. If can ruin the concentration of another caster, it can kill an injured enemy in some circumstances, it can knock over a glass, or shatter a window, it can do lots of little small effects without it replacing an actual combat attack for all but the weakest of folks.

This is exactly what a cantrip ought to be.

I believe you are greatly overestimating the cantrips.

If they hit as well as an archer, had the same range, and did the same damage, i would say the cantrips are too powerful to be called cantrips.

But, I believe they fall short of using a weapon.

Unless they changed it, ray of frost and shocking grasp were both 1d8.  But as you say, the mage doesn't get any bonuses to damage on that (until getting higher levels where it becomes 2d8).

I know it's just anecdotal, but even anecdotal evidence is stronger than theorycrafting IMO .  But I never once saw any sort of game balance issues or distraction issues during the dozens of sessions I played of 5e with at wills.  The only difference was that instead of, "I shoot my crossbow/sling/dagger/dart" it became, "I use ray of frost".  By the time the mage ran of out spells to use and had to resort to that stuff, he wasn't doing hardly any damage at all even if he hit compared to any of the fighting classes.

Fighting classes have a pretty consistent baseline of damage that runs forever.  Mages have peaks and valleys; sometimes being a lot more than a fighter, often being a lot less.  The game has always been like that.

Quote from: Bill;762747I believe you are greatly overestimating the cantrips.

If they hit as well as an archer, had the same range, and did the same damage, i would say the cantrips are too powerful to be called cantrips.

But, I believe they fall short of using a weapon.

The good news for jibba is that cantrips aren't like any of those examples.

weapons get ability modifiers to damage.  That's the difference between 1-8 points of damage (cantrip) and 4-11 (with a +3 mod).  Or on average nearly double, going from 4.5 to 7.5

Quote from: Sacrosanct;762749Unless they changed it, ray of frost and shocking grasp were both 1d8.  But as you say, the mage doesn't get any bonuses to damage on that (until getting higher levels where it becomes 2d8).

Ah, my bad. Either way, it doesn't compare to just using a weapon. 1d6+2 on the short sword is better than 1d8. A bow is better than ray of frost for pure damage as well for him.

The only part where the cantrips get better than a weapon attack is when the dice scale up, but at that point, fighters are getting multiple attacks, so yes, the wizard can cast a cantrip with an expected damage of around 9 points of damage on a hit. While the 14 strength fighter can do two attacks that do around 9 points of damage on a hit.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;762755Ah, my bad. Either way, it doesn't compare to just using a weapon. 1d6+2 on the short sword is better than 1d8. A bow is better than ray of frost for pure damage as well for him.

The only part where the cantrips get better than a weapon attack is when the dice scale up, but at that point, fighters are getting multiple attacks, so yes, the wizard can cast a cantrip with an expected damage of around 9 points of damage on a hit. While the 14 strength fighter can do two attacks that do around 9 points of damage on a hit.

Heh, "expected" and "around" to make it look like 14Str fighter will do 2x at-will damage?  Gotta frame it that way? Sheesh.

Mage: 2d8 (if hit) (assuming it stays base 1d8)
Fighter 1d8+Str (if hit) plus 1d8+Str (if hit). (Assuming the Fighter is using a 1d8 Weapon.)

Now you get a 18 Str Fighter with Greataxe, not even remotely close.  A lower Str Fighter with a handaxe, different story.

Quote from: jibbajibba;762644The cantrips seem overpowered to me.
I would have dropped an attack spell to doing 1-4 damage for example.

I like the more spells early less spells later though as I think that will bring the wizard's powercurve more into allignment with the other classes.

Makes one wonder if they are following the idea that most 'osp' play low level 'campaigns'.

Quote from: Marleycat;762650And that's exactly what they did. 19 total spells of which 15 are 1-5th. What more do you want? It demands serious strategy to actually survive and contribute as is.

Is there definitive proof that is 100% accurate?  I haven't found anything that says this to be true.

Quote from: Sommerjon;762773Makes one wonder if they are following the idea that most 'osp' play low level 'campaigns'.


Is there definitive proof that is 100% accurate?  I haven't found anything that says this to be true.

The spell slots are the same for everybody for ease of multiclassing

4/4/3/2/2/1/1/1/1 (19) for a 20th level character that is a full caster.

The spells you prepare a day is level + attribute bonus (25) max cap of 20 in your attribute unless you get a magic item (ring of wizardry would be likely). We do know ritual caster is in the full game and they might put it in BASIC also unless they changed it wizards can have unlimited cantrips. But going by the starter set with the tightest of interpretations it looks like you will auto-learn cantrips every 4th level. So I would hazard a good guess that your typical cleric or wizard would have 8 cantrips by 20th level at the very least.

Arcane recovery is 1/2 your level round up in slots not spells once a day after a short rest, in the playtest it was only good for 1-5th level spells but the starter set doesn't specify that, either because it's not relevant or they may have changed it to allow for you to recover high level spells if you reach 12th level and up.

Quote from: Sommerjon;762773Is there definitive proof that is 100% accurate?  I haven't found anything that says this to be true.

As far as I can tell, from twitter, legend and lore, etc. in terms of spells that can be cast per day, what she said is true for all pure casters. However, Wizards can refresh some spells per day on a short rest, so you may consider that to mean they get more.

The starter set previews have not contradicted this, but as they only go up to level 5, it could have changed but I really don't think it has.

Quote from: CRKrueger;762766Heh, "expected" and "around" to make it look like 14Str fighter will do 2x at-will damage?  Gotta frame it that way? Sheesh.

Mage: 2d8 (if hit) (assuming it stays base 1d8)
Fighter 1d8+Str (if hit) plus 1d8+Str (if hit). (Assuming the Fighter is using a 1d8 Weapon.)

Now you get a 18 Str Fighter with Greataxe, not even remotely close.  A lower Str Fighter with a handaxe, different story.

True, a non 'optimized' fighter might be closer to what the cantrips can do.

And what I mean by 'non optimized', is a fighter who rolled low stats, or rolled in order, or actually chose to be Intelligent, Charismatic, etc..

Quote from: CRKrueger;762766Heh, "expected" and "around" to make it look like 14Str fighter will do 2x at-will damage?  Gotta frame it that way? Sheesh.

Mage: 2d8 (if hit) (assuming it stays base 1d8)
Fighter 1d8+Str (if hit) plus 1d8+Str (if hit). (Assuming the Fighter is using a 1d8 Weapon.)

Now you get a 18 Str Fighter with Greataxe, not even remotely close.  A lower Str Fighter with a handaxe, different story.

1. I don't think the game math should be based around 10 Str fighters, that is absurd to use as a baseline for how the game works, because you are just going to make decent strengthed fighters ridiculous.

2. 14 strength two handed sword fighter DOES do at least twice the average damage. I talked about this already and popped the math down in another thread, I don't see a reason to repeat the math every time.

3. Yes, a sword and board fighter will do less, around 6.5 expected damage on a hit with a longsword (1d8), but will also have better AC than a two handed fighter, and WAAAY more AC and HP than the fragile wizard giving him a lot more staying power.

4. 14 strength at level 5 (when two weapon attacks come into play) for a fighter is seriously seriously conservative.

5. If you want to pick less effective weapons, you shouldn't be surprised if you are less effective (handaxe, unless you are dual wielding, but that adds its own wrinkles into the expected damage).

6. Magic Weapons, while not as potent or common as in some other versions of D&D, can affect fighter damage even further, adding both a slight boost in accuracy, and in damage. There is nothing like this for cantrips, unless it is unrevealed.

Another thing, what is the range of the blasty cantrips?

If its relatively short, a bow kicks its ass.

Quote from: Bill;762793Another thing, what is the range of the blasty cantrips?

If its relatively short, a bow kicks its ass.

It's decent.  Ray of frost is 50ft at the latest playest

Quote from: Bill;762793Another thing, what is the range of the blasty cantrips?

If its relatively short, a bow kicks its ass.

They're short. The rays and I assume the firebolt is like 50 feet. Bows have much longer ranges.