Quote from: estar;763521The practical effect on a PC wizard would be that they would be continually tracked down and attacked. They may win the fire few battle but there are thousands of mundanes and one of them. And if they. managed to survive it would a lonely existence of limited resources.

Good post, and I agree.  It will be interesting to see if the cantrips have a material component of any significant cost...

Quote from: Haffrung;763304Old School Revisionist bullshit.

D&D became a monster fighting game when Gygax could no longer personally show all the players how he meant it to be played - which is about a week after he started selling OD&D at conventions. Literally millions of players in the 80s played D&D as a monster fighting game.

I don't think anybody really argues against that.

2e started the rules modifications in that direction, but 3.x and 4e really cranked it up to 11.

Personally, I prefer the "exploration/adventure" version of D&D, even though the "monster killing" version is what I grew up with.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;763501Oh, I agree.  However, it seems some people (including unnamed reviewers here) who think that even if the main plot of an adventure is "escape from capture", being captured in the first place is a horrible railroad designed module.

I'd call it "buy-in".  As in, before starting the adventure, I'd say "so how about we play a game about , but to start your characters get captured.  Cool?"

Quote from: robiswrong;7635872e started the rules modifications in that direction, but 3.x and 4e really cranked it up to 11.

I think this is a good test - does your party carry (or wish they were carrying) a ten foot pole?

Jailing any middling level character starts to resemble one of the Special Containment Procedure creepypastas.  I was running a superhero game where the mind controller was always followed by two squads. The first had orders to shoot him if he hesitated at all, and the second had orders to shoot the first if they acted strange in any way. It was a stressful work environment.

In my current Game store campaign using S&W/Majestic Wilderlands I have a group of 8th level PCs that are largely unjailable.
When they interact with locals, they don't act like mad dogs. The main reason is that early I successfully established that they are part of a living breathing world with its own agenda.

What makes it doubly interesting in regards to this group is that they are disinterested in the setting and focus on dungeon adventuring. It like they don't like the Majestic Wilderlands, is that what this group is interested in is collecting maps, and rumors of dungeons and exploring. The bigger the place the better. Like Tegal Manor or my own Majestic Fastness megadungeon.

They do deal with the life of the setting it mostly as a pit stop to outfit for the next expedition. They don't have many allies but they don't have many enemies. That is until the most recent adventure where they dealt a very powerful foe a little hurt.


Again despite their growing personal power they don't go mad dog like some of the horror stories. To stress the point it is because of how I roleplay the setting elements.

The problems mentioned with Wizards and their at will abilities can easily be fixed with roleplaying. Make the setting a living breathing place that had these types of people for generations and roleplay accordingly.

Quote from: estar;763642The problems mentioned with Wizards and their at will abilities can easily be fixed with roleplaying. Make the setting a living breathing place that had these types of people for generations and roleplay accordingly.

Forgive me if you 'get this' already, but that's not what I'm talking about.  Homebrew, home games, personalized settings, and all that aside:

1) I don't feel that WotC et al depict Wizards in a way like you're advocating
and
2) I honestly think that at-will cantrips make it worse*.

*Unless they wind up having spell components that can't be found in a jail cell, for example.

So YES, it CAN be fixed.  WILL they, though, particularly with it amplified?

And as Sacrosanct pointed out, Slavers pretty much demonstrates that they won't.  They did release it as Next compatible, IIRC?

Quote from: estar;763642The problems mentioned with Wizards and their at will abilities can easily be fixed with roleplaying. Make the setting a living breathing place that had these types of people for generations and roleplay accordingly.

It's not hard to create the expectation that abusing magic in any form is looked at harshly without being obvious like having a couple guards have the initiate feat or be a low level F/M.....

This is easily believable without even entering in setting considerations like Dragonlance or Dark Sun or anything in between.

Quote from: Marleycat;763646It's not hard to create the expectation that abusing magic in any form is looked at harshly without being obvious like having a couple guards have the initiate feat or be a low level F/M.....

This is easily believable without even entering in setting considerations like Dragonlance or Dark Sun or anything in between.

Mad wizards get put down early. They may be able to shoot a bolt of freezing energy or whisper messages to people, but the local archer can drop them at 200 paces and a rogue can cut his throat without being seen.

When they get more powerful, then they get to be trouble. That's why most wizards are expected to police their own.

It's perfectly acceptable that some wizards go power-mad. Who else raises those orc armies, builds a labyrinth base, and populates it with arcane guardians? And how else did they get so strong except by preying on the weaker power-hungry mages of the milieu and taking their stuff?

As for imprisoning PCs, by the time they're mid level it should be apparent to any would-be captors just how deadly they are. Execution is the only way to deal with adventurers with any certainty. You don't toss a couple black mambas you find in the backyard into your basement and wash your hands of the matter.

Quote from: JonWake;763621Jailing any middling level character starts to resemble one of the Special Containment Procedure creepypastas.  I was running a superhero game where the mind controller was always followed by two squads. The first had orders to shoot him if he hesitated at all, and the second had orders to shoot the first if they acted strange in any way. It was a stressful work environment.

Or just steal a trope from Lord of the Rings.  Wizards need their staff to do the continuous low level effects -- like Gandalf with light.  

"Did I not counsel you to forbid him his staff?" And all.

Flavorful, fun, and makes prison viable.  If you worry about too much casting, make the staff suffer stress if it is under continuous use.  And make the process of replacing it non-trivial.

Quote from: Haffrung;763678It's perfectly acceptable that some wizards go power-mad. Who else raises those orc armies, builds a labyrinth base, and populates it with arcane guardians? And how else did they get so strong except by preying on the weaker power-hungry mages of the milieu and taking their stuff?

As for imprisoning PCs, by the time they're mid level it should be apparent to any would-be captors just how deadly they are. Execution is the only way to deal with adventurers with any certainty. You don't toss a couple black mambas you find in the backyard into your basement and wash your hands of the matter.

I figure that the power mad wizards get their start like adventuring wizards do: they find a bunch of mad bastards to look out for each other. By the time the crazy's in full swing, they're too dangerous to confront.

I also like the explanation for death traps. Why do you have a room that slowly fills with acid?  Have you ever tried to behead a monk? Or hang a wizard? Sure, they might get out, but you can buy a new death trap.

Hmmm ... the ecology of wizards, what an odd discussion, but useful in it's own way. I guess with magic there might be anti-magic as well, such as golden thread spun by an elf, or elf enchanted maiden. Tie the thread around the wizard's hands, such as woven into a rope, then they can be hung from the wall.

Quote from: Haffrung;763678It's perfectly acceptable that some wizards go power-mad. Who else raises those orc armies, builds a labyrinth base, and populates it with arcane guardians? And how else did they get so strong except by preying on the weaker power-hungry mages of the milieu and taking their stuff?

And that's why I love Eldritch Ass Kicking!
http://www.mysticages.com/games/eak/

Anybody who loves Magic + Easy Rules should check it out.

Quote from: Votan;763683Or just steal a trope from Lord of the Rings.  Wizards need their staff to do the continuous low level effects -- like Gandalf with light.  

"Did I not counsel you to forbid him his staff?" And all.

Flavorful, fun, and makes prison viable.  If you worry about too much casting, make the staff suffer stress if it is under continuous use.  And make the process of replacing it non-trivial.

I really like this idea. It is an easily accepted trope, as you said from Lord of the Rings but also for wands in Harry Potter. Or even other media in which the hero "needs" his/her item (lightsaber, Mjolnir etcc)

Quote from: Votan;763683Or just steal a trope from Lord of the Rings.  Wizards need their staff to do the continuous low level effects -- like Gandalf with light.  

"Did I not counsel you to forbid him his staff?" And all.

Flavorful, fun, and makes prison viable.  If you worry about too much casting, make the staff suffer stress if it is under continuous use.  And make the process of replacing it non-trivial.

Great idea.