Quote from: Brander;763219Regarding at-will magic, one of the the easiest solutions is to require some kind of focus as a material component.  

The easiest solution is to simply say "no".

Quote from: thedungeondelver;763221The easiest solution is to simply say "no".

No that's the dumbest.

EDIT/Addendum:
"That's not how magic works in my/this setting" is a wonderful answer.  "No" by itself, is what strikes me as the dumbest answer.

Quote from: Marleycat;763215Well there is Flame Bolt and Shocking Grasp for something direct still.

Playtest only allowed you two cantrips and I spent one on Read Magic.

Quote from: Omega;763212heh, its not so usefull in the wrong situations.
Assumng these make it over... all of the following were immune to cond attacks.

Somebody shooting at you from behind a wall is always a son of a bitch, or through murder holes. Really it's going to come down how it's played, frontal attacks are often save vs stupid.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;763213350xp (3 hobgoblins) to advance from 1st to 2nd level?

lolno

Quite.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;763170Yes, and that is only an important consideration in a monster fighting game.

If I wasn't clear in my previous post, I will restate.

In the place of the reduced spell slot 5e Wizard have more flexibility to cast spells of all types. That some of the expanded flexibility can only be used to cast spells useful for pure roleplaying encounters namely rituals and many of the at will cantrips.

Quote from: Omega;763226Playtest only allowed you two cantrips and I spent one on Read Magic.

From the starter set it looks like you get 3 and high elves get 4 plus you learn another at 4th level.

I like Brander's focus idea it would be very appropriate in certain settings at the very least.

Quote from: Omega;763126Wands in AD&D tended to have around 90 charges. (Modules varied a fair amount.)
Which was 9 times what our BX wands had which was 1d10 charges! We didnt rely on wands at all.

We woudl say a wand woudl have 100 charges when it was made when you found it it had %d charges left and you had no idea how many as it didn't have a battery power level meter on the side so we never relied on wands either.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;763134This has nothing to do with whether or not I like it.  Don't turn an objective comparison to subjective one.  Nevermind the fact the numerous times I've expressed my own concern at at will magic over the years.  Once again, you're pulling a SJW tactic.  If I'm not lockstep with you, I must love it.  That tactic gets real old real fast.  When they do it, and when you do it.

The fact is, in AD&D, wands were all over the place, with lots of charges.

That, along with scrolls and other magic items (like rings of spell storing, staves, etc) effectively meant pew pew mages have existed from darn near the get go, and not some new thing, so the argument that at-will cantrips turn mages into pew pew mages is a spurious argument based on the fact they existed long before at will cantrips did.  In fact, most want/rod/staff spells were significantly more powerful than any cantrip found in 5e.

So to me its about how magic works.

In D&D vancian magic the wizard reads through the spell and locks a version of it in his head which is released when the spell is cast. That is how arcane wizard magic works.
If there are spells that break that paradigm you are undermining it. So if a wizard can hit you with a ray of frost at will then how does that fit with creating a construct in your head that is released along with the magical energy it contains when the spell is cast? it doesn't at all and becuase it doesn;t becuase you can just cast a ray of frost at will that means that metaphysically there is an alternate way to tap magical power one that is simply able to channle magical energy directly and shape it at will into a number of forms. If that is the case then a wizard who could master it could cast any spells whenever they like of any type.

So again with me its setting consistency.

Quote from: estar;763158The question D&D designers have to answer what reflects generic fantasy of D&D the best while remaining easy to learn.

Of all the subsystems in a fantasy RPG, magic and how it works is perhaps the most arbitrary. The rules are the rules because that how the implied setting works.

Plenty of other RPGs work fine with Wizards being able to cast low damage spells every combat round. Work fine in that they have this feature but still feel like their targeted subgenre and not like fantasy superheroes.

So the question is how does a 5e Wizard stack up vs a classic D&D wizard? From running a recent high level playtest my experience is that they are the big guns. The at will spells pale in comparisons to what the fighting classes can do. Their main effect is to allow the wizard player to do something magically when all the big booms are used up.

That from low level play and high level play the fighters are far more balenced with mages than in previous editions with classic D&D mechanics. The number of big booms been reduced in favor of roleplaying with magic flexibiiity (rituals, at wills, etc)

But that is the problem right there.

The at will damage spells feel like they have been added just to let the wizard do something in combat.

The Spell slot paradigm and its Vancian antecedents have a very specific "metaphysical explanation". You lock the power of the spell in a mental construct that is destroyed when the spell is cast and the energy is released.  If you have at will spells they break that paradigm.

The logcal extensin of at wills is that there is another way to tap magic that lets you do whatever you like. Well hold on forget vancian casting I am going to use the other sort of magic and just work out how to cast Fireballs and fly spells with it.

Now in line with Vancian casting i can see that there might be some simple effects you could construct in your head at will through mental training. If we say that Fly is like construcuting a polygon of 3 linked Dodecahedrons in your mind then maybe you coudl train yourself to construct a simple cube or a single sphere of "magic" as a purely mental exercise. Now this does break pure Vance becuase in pure vance you actually forget the spell  because the mind can only memorise it through teh spell construct. But assuming there were some simple base shapes that aprentice wizards learn I could see that you could use them as a cantrip. You mind effectively doing the mental gymnastics to get a simple effect. But these effects should be of the most simple kind and they will be things that a wizard uses every day through their study, reading magic, correcting an ink spill, findign a reference ina  book. etc etc .

The at will damage spell doesn;t feel liek its been through this process at all. It feels like its totally bolted on on the settigns metaphysics so the wizard can do something each round in combat.

Quote from: estar;763158So the question is how does a 5e Wizard stack up vs a classic D&D wizard? From running a recent high level playtest my experience is that they are the big guns. The at will spells pale in comparisons to what the fighting classes can do. Their main effect is to allow the wizard player to do something magically when all the big booms are used up.

This is admittedly a matter of personal taste, but for my money I like having wizard spells be big booms only, and for the wizard to look for something other to do in between the peals of thunder.  Having magic to use every single round cheapens it for me, and has seemed to stifle creativity.

Quote from: jibbajibba;763272But that is the problem right there.

The at will damage spells feel like they have been added just to let the wizard do something in combat.

The Spell slot paradigm and its Vancian antecedents have a very specific "metaphysical explanation". You lock the power of the spell in a mental construct that is destroyed when the spell is cast and the energy is released.  If you have at will spells they break that paradigm.

The logcal extensin of at wills is that there is another way to tap magic that lets you do whatever you like. Well hold on forget vancian casting I am going to use the other sort of magic and just work out how to cast Fireballs and fly spells with it.

5e doesn't use vancian as 0-3e define it. You have flexible spells and slots, arcane recovery and innate specialty spells as a thing. Cantrips are just the logical extension of that.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;763213I like the idea of much slower progression so I'd probably just use the AD&D XP charts by class, thief gets one, fighter gets one, magic-user gets one, etc.

350xp (3 hobgoblins) to advance from 1st to 2nd level?

lolno

The trouble is you are equating the 5e hobgoblin with the AD&D hobgoblin

This might be valid or it might not be but you are making a big assumption either way.

And split XP tables was not a great idea. The main reason to have levels in a game is to provide some sort of comparison between PCs. So havign classes that are wildly different in power levels and having wildly ranging xp requirements for levels means you may as well dump levels ad adopt a skill systme

Quote from: jibbajibba;763265So again with me its setting consistency.

Yep.  I am betting we still find casters locked away in dungeons though.  Probably in official modules.  Anyone want to take that bet?

There aren't any 0 level spells that will get them out from behind a locked iron door. Might make them a little bit more dangerous if you open the door without some backup, but you have a couple guys with crossbows and readied actions and you'll be fine.